• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

The best sprinter the TdF has seen can't win the green jersey

Page 5 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Mar 4, 2010
1,020
0
0
Visit site
yes it's a sprinters jersey, but it's also winable with tactics which makes it more exciting. much the same way as the polka dot jersey is for the climbers but is more often won with tactics both as an individual and as a team
 
Jul 2, 2009
2,392
0
0
Visit site
Four Winds said:
Not quite as simple as that. If he concentrated more on climbing then his sprinting would probably suffer. Plus I think his climbing has improved since 2-3 years ago, he's certainly got over a few hills many people hadn't expected.

I also wonder if Hushovd's lack of firepower in the bunch sprints had anything to do with him trying to mop up intermediates in the mountains rather than sitting in the autobus and conserving energy. I think he only gained 20 points that way? He lost way more than that in the last 3 sprints, but maybe he felt he wasn't sprinting well anyway? Perhaps that's why Cav "doesn't bother" as some have put it because he feels he would loose more points in the long run. What use is 6 points if you duff your sprint at the end of the stage and loose 10. After all Petacchi only contested 1 sprint (6 points) and he still won the jersey by 9 points.

Hushovd also lost possible 18 points in Spa with neutralised sprint, but he did end up 21 behind Petacchi.

Cav will win Green. If he keeps doing what he's doing it will come to him. With a wee bit of luck he could have had 2 already.


I more or less agree with everything you say here. The idea that you have to go off in breaks hunting intermediate points didn't really exist until Hushovd did it last year. Usually, if there was a sprint available to the peloton, they'd compete for it, but otherwise not bother. Hushovd does it just to give himself a fighting chance. In the past some riders (Zabel for example) have picked up points in the medium mountains, which helps, but he never came up against a sprinter as dominant as Cavendish.

McEwen never bothered with intermediates, unless he absolutely had to, and he's got three green jerseys. And he's a awful climber.

Cavendish will keep doing what he does best. Greens will come. No-one knows more about getting the Green than his chief advisor.

As for Hushovd, I think his decline as a sprinter is down to two things. 1- He knows he can;t compete for stage wins with Cavendish, or even Farrar, and has focused more on the classics. 2- He broke his collarbone in May or June. I wouldn't be surprised to see him leading out Haussler next season (if both still at Cervelo)
 
Jul 7, 2010
395
0
0
Visit site
hrotha said:
Actually I was rolling my eyes at Cavendish's idea that a goal is something you don't try to get at all and just sort of happens. The only thing he has to do to win the jersey is to contest the intermediate sprints and to try to get as many points as possible in the finish line even if he can't win the stage. Obviously Cavendish is so superior he might well win the green jersey without even trying one of these years, but that doesn't mean he's actually fighting for it, and for him to claim it's his goal and something he's fought for is silly.

Imagine a rider who claimed he wanted to win the GC but then sat up and lost 10-15 seconds whenever he couldn't win a stage, didn't chase other GC contenders and in general just rode to win stages. Sure, he may win the GC in the end anyway, but that doesn't mean he's doing it right.

If you don't trust my cycling credentials I guess you can ask Hushovd and Petacchi.
He doesn't need to contest intermediates...He does however need to sprint for every stage.

In all honesty though, barring misfortune, he would have won it the past two years. If you discount his crash this year, and discount his relegation last year, the jersey would have been his twice.

But as I said, he does need to make sure he sprints to the line in every stage (that he's in the top 20 of), regardless of whether it is for 1st of 8th.
 
Have time bonuses for sprints and intermediates, and you'll see a lot more GC guys higher up, and contesting for the points competition. It'd be more dangerous on flat stages, though. If you want a pure sprinter's prize, get rid of the intermediates that can be scooped by a break or the first bunch of a climbing stage.


-dB
 
According to Norwegian media Hushovd was unable to perform any specific sprint training before the TdF because of his injury. He also looks more lean this year, which should help him in the mountains but doesn't do his sprint much good. Of course, he has never been the fastest sprinter, but last year he was more or less consistently the second fastest sprinter while this year he was an also-ran for 10th spot. I wonder if he'll get some of his speed back, or if he'll become even more of a classics rider.
 
Jun 19, 2009
5,220
0
0
Visit site
Ferminal said:
Why should the best sprinter be an automatic winner of the points classification?
The best overall sprinter should have to contest sprints on any terrain. If by sprinter, the OP means a talented lead out follower that requires a squad of guys to keep him within the time limit on half the stages then Cav is his guy. When Thor can haul his volume and mass over hill and dale to fight for points he seems to be contesting the Green jersey as it was originally defined. Someone proposing we change that? Cav doesn't care.
 
Steel4Ever said:
No...again, no it's not.
It's NOT a competition/jersey for the best sprinter.
If it was, then Cavendouche would have won it.
POINTS = GREEN.

Here is a quote from Thor Hushovd after winning the 2009 Green Jersey. He is speaking about Cavendish.

“He has to sprint fast if he wants to get more points to win the green jersey in 2010. But I was the best sprinter in the Tour de France last year. He was the fastest but the jersey is not for the fastest sprinter, it’s for the best sprinter, that’s why I won it."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/hushovd-aiming-for-three-big-targets-in-2010

I might disagree with Thor about what constitutes the "best sprinter" but at least he is under no illusion as to what the purpose of the Green Jersey is.
 
May 9, 2009
638
0
0
Visit site
Polyarmour said:
Here is a quote from Thor Hushovd after winning the 2009 Green Jersey. He is speaking about Cavendish.

“He has to sprint fast if he wants to get more points to win the green jersey in 2010. But I was the best sprinter in the Tour de France last year. He was the fastest but the jersey is not for the fastest sprinter, it’s for the best sprinter, that’s why I won it."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/hushovd-aiming-for-three-big-targets-in-2010

I might disagree with Thor about what constitutes the "best sprinter" but at least he is under no illusion as to what the purpose of the Green Jersey is.

What makes up the Green Jersey Competition?
POINTS!
NOT stage wins.

The fastest sprinter will win more stages (probably), making him the best sprint of the Tour.
The rider who does the best job in collecting more POINTS is the Green Jersey winner.

One does NOT equal the other.

Cavendouche is great at winning stages, terrible at collecting POINTS -- which is what you need to win the Green Jersey.

It is a POINTS competition -- NOT a sprinting competition.
 
Polyarmour said:
Here is a quote from Thor Hushovd after winning the 2009 Green Jersey. He is speaking about Cavendish.

“He has to sprint fast if he wants to get more points to win the green jersey in 2010. But I was the best sprinter in the Tour de France last year. He was the fastest but the jersey is not for the fastest sprinter, it’s for the best sprinter, that’s why I won it."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/hushovd-aiming-for-three-big-targets-in-2010

I might disagree with Thor about what constitutes the "best sprinter" but at least he is under no illusion as to what the purpose of the Green Jersey is.
The contradiction is only apparent, since it's pretty obviously a matter of semantics and Steel4Ever and Hushovd would clearly agree if they discussed the matter. Hushovd's "fastest sprinter" is equivalent to Steel4Ever's "best sprinter".
 
Soooo.... Steel4Ever..... are you just going to repeat this mantra over and over until you beat everybody into submission with it? Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true I'm afraid. The overwhelming evidence is that it is a sprinters jersey.

It is coveted by sprinters
It is contested by sprinters
It is won by sprinters
And most importantly of all..the points system favours sprinters by heavily weighting the points towards flat stages.

Then I present you with a quote from Thor referring to it as the sprinters jersey.

You ignore all of this and just repeat your mantra about it not being a sprint competition but a points competition..... as if being a "points competition" is an end and a definition in itself.

Oh... it's a points competition..... I see.... well nothing more needs to be said then.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe.... just maybe..... the purpose of this points competition..... is to reward the sprinters??? Or do you think this "points competition" was gifted to the TdF on a stone tablet 2500 years ago and that it is beyond the realms of mankind to even question its raison d'etre?
 
May 9, 2009
638
0
0
Visit site
hrotha said:
The contradiction is only apparent, since it's pretty obviously a matter of semantics and Steel4Ever and Hushovd would clearly agree if they discussed the matter. Hushovd's "fastest sprinter" is equivalent to Steel4Ever's "best sprinter".

Not quite.

Say Cavendouche only won one stage in this Tour.
He's still the fastest, but would not be considered the best.

Take the reality of this Tour (and that of last Tour).
Neither Ale-Jet nor Thor were the fastest or best sprinters, yet to some posters, they still managed to win the "sprinters" jersey???

It's about POINTS, not sprints.

But, whatever...believe whatever you want.
 
Jebus F'ing Christo,

All the riders know the rules when they show up. The TdF lists the places where you can get points. A stage was neutralized, that's about the only beef any of them have.

Cavendish didn't win. Petacchi did.

Last year Cavendish didn't win, Hushovd did.

It is completely ****ing irrelevant if it's a points competition (TdF states Green Jersey identifies the leader in the classification on points) or sprinters competition. Call it the monkey-boy competition, it doesn't really matter. The points are where the points are and Cavendish didn't get enough.
 
Mar 13, 2009
2,890
0
0
Visit site
Cavendish would have won the points jersey if he

A. Didn't crash
B. Sit up on stage 4

Good thing Renshaw gave him his balls back or wouldn't have had the confidence to win anything.
 
Jul 6, 2010
173
0
0
Visit site
Thing is, Cav openly admitted he wasn't going to go for points particularly, especially the intermediate ones. So he can't (and for the record hasn't) even uttered one word of complaint. He is the type of sprinter whose sole focus is stage wins. Who knows, next year his focus may change. Either way he knows how to win the green jersey as do all the other sprinters.

It's like everyone constantly moaning at the F1 points system not rewarding the winners enough. Well get a car that bloody stays on the track then. Everyone seems to want to be allowed an off day. No such luck in the tour I'm afraid and rightly so!
 
Mar 13, 2009
2,890
0
0
Visit site
Bobby G said:
Thing is, Cav openly admitted he wasn't going to go for points particularly, especially the intermediate ones. So he can't (and for the record hasn't) even uttered one word of complaint. He is the type of sprinter whose sole focus is stage wins. Who knows, next year his focus may change. Either way he knows how to win the green jersey as do all the other sprinters.

It's like everyone constantly moaning at the F1 points system not rewarding the winners enough. Well get a car that bloody stays on the track then. Everyone seems to want to be allowed an off day. No such luck in the tour I'm afraid and rightly so!

Cav took 2, that was the problem.
 
May 9, 2009
638
0
0
Visit site
Willy_Voet said:
Jebus F'ing Christo,

All the riders know the rules when they show up. The TdF lists the places where you can get points. A stage was neutralized, that's about the only beef any of them have.

Cavendish didn't win. Petacchi did.

Last year Cavendish didn't win, Hushovd did.

It is completely ****ing irrelevant if it's a points competition (TdF states Green Jersey identifies the leader in the classification on points) or sprinters competition. Call it the monkey-boy competition, it doesn't really matter. The points are where the points are and Cavendish didn't get enough.

So we all agree then -- Green Jersey = Points Competition. :D


karlboss said:
Cavendish would have won the points jersey if he...

He won 6 last year -- no green.
He won 5 this year -- no green.
shouldacouldawoulda....
 
Mar 13, 2009
2,890
0
0
Visit site
Steel4Ever said:
I guess you are agreeing. Cav made a decision not to sprint for a high place on 4...and doing so lost his shot at the green jersey. The best sprinter gets his reward in stage wins, let the points jersey be for something else. I would prefer to see seconds added to it, so the Jersey can change shoulders more often.
 

TRENDING THREADS