The best sprinter the TdF has seen can't win the green jersey

[El Pistolero]

Tell me the last time the green jersey wasn't won by sprinters? People like Merckx could also sprint really well, he was a prodigy.

It might be called a points jersey, but if you're not a sprinter these days you'll never get it.

Cavendish didn't win it last year because he was disqualified for a stage and thus lost all the points earned on that stage. He didn't win it this year because he rode like crap first few days and was mentally broken. He'll win it next year if he learned anything from his last 2 Tours.

 

[goggalor]

Uh, Cavendish has ridden four tours, not three. BTW. FYI.

 

[Cerberus]

Tell me the last time the green jersey wasn't won by sprinters? People like Merckx could also sprint really well, he was a prodigy.

It might be called a points jersey, but if you're not a sprinter these days you'll never get it.

Cavendish didn't win it last year because he was disqualified for a stage and thus lost all the points earned on that stage. He didn't win it this year because he rode like crap first few days and was mentally broken. He'll win it next year if he learned anything from his last 2 Tours.

Actually when Merckx won it the rules were different rewarding non.sprint stages more. Merckx could probably not have won it under the current rules.

 

[El Pistolero]

Actually when Merckx won it the rules were different rewarding non.sprint stages more. Merckx could probably not have won it under the current rules.

I know the rules were different, but Merckx was also a good sprinter in his day.

 

[asdfgh101]

I can't believe that people still don't understand.

Historically the Green Jersey has heavily favoured sprinters (due to the points structure).


It is a points jersey, the amount of points awarded for different things will shape how the jersey is won. I am vehemently against the inclsuion of intermediate sprints.

The idea behind the Green Jersey should be to reward the most consistent finisher; whether this is a rider who dominates the bunch sprints, one who does well in bunch sprints whilst also placing well when faced with a different parcours (cobbles, medium mountains) or a GC rider who racks up a lot of high finishes and a few wins.

This way an all-rounder could beat a pure sprinter without tarnishing the jersey. We've already agreed that the polka dot can be won by a mediocre but combative climber. With the placement of the intermediate sprints Thor can use his mediocre climbing to secure cheap points.

Thor got 6 points for an all-day effort over 4 high mountains in stage 16 (it wasn't his fault that the tour organisers and teams conspired to act out a typical clockwise year stage into Pau). The same number of points can be awarded for negotiating a category 3 climb, desecending well and then being allowed to take the 6 bonus points by any breakaway companions.

Here's an excerpt form another post i made which describes how i think the Green Jersey should reward both consistency and excellence.


What to do about the intermediate points?

Make it into a prize (award points 5, 3, 2, 1 to reward consistent presence in breakaways, have finishes on both flat and uncategorised hills to suit different types of riders)

How to give all-rounders a chance in green jersey without discriminating against pure sprinters who dominate bunch sprints?

More stages which could end up in a bunch sprint but not necassarily (like the stage which Vino won, stage 2 but without the descent of death, cobbles but with more spare wheels at roadside).

Adopt standard 25 points downwards for top 15 in all non-flat stages, then 30 points downwards for top 15 in flat stages (30, 24, 20, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1).

This would reward consistent sprinting as well as performance on more difficult stages.

Standings would currently be (if stage 2, in which only Hushovd made 1st group, was not neutralised)

After stage 3: Hushovd 75, Petacchi 30, Cavendish 0

After stage 4: Hushovd 82, Petacchi 60, Cavendish 4

After stage 5: Hushovd 96, Petacchi 68, Cavendish 34

From here on the finishing order was Cavendish ahead of Petacchi ahead of Hushovd (save for stage 16 to Pau)

After stage 18: Petacchi 158, Cavendish 155, Hushovd 133,

Contador 96 (so GC contender could win if he was to rack up high places in TT's and mountains, with emphasis on wins)

Since Hushovd's last good sprint: Cavendish 121, Petacchi 90, Hushovd 37

 

[sublimit]

The best sprinter the TdF has seen can't win the green jersey because he can't be arsed to give it a try. [/thread]

He cant be bothered with the intermediate sprints for points and I dont blame him. He hunts stages.

 

[roundabout]

If lesser sprinters can win the green jersey then the problem is not with the points system.

 

[happychappy]

Just watched the replay of yesterdays stage, you're right Cav isn't even trying it's just too easy for him, even when he's ill

 

[Steel4Ever]

It begs the question as to what is the point of the green jersey when the TdF's most prolific stage winner ever can't win it even once over 3 Tours.

The green jersey with its odd distribution of points seems to value consistent mediocre performances more than it values brilliance.

Too bad the POINTS CLASSIFICATION jersey is NOT a sprinter's competition. Never has been. Read a little TdF HISTORY before you spout off more useless garbage.

Great sprinters are awarded with STAGE WINS.
Great consistency (or mediocrity as you put it) is awarded...THE GREEN JERSEY.


I have an idea -- why not just make the guy who wins the most stages the winner of the whole damn race! It make the Tour real simple for all the Huffy riders out there to understand -- no weird jerseys or screwy point systems to worry about.

Hey everyone! Cav has just won 2 Tours on the trot! Congrats!

 

[Steel4Ever]

I have an idea -- why not just make the guy who wins the most stages the winner of the whole damn race! It make the Tour real simple for all the Huffy riders out there to understand -- no weird jerseys or screwy point systems to worry about.

Hey everyone! Cav has just won 2 Tours on the trot! Congrats!

 

[cycledp]

Mark Cavendish now has 14 Tour de France stage wins. In all likelihood he will bag another one this tour which will equal Freddy Maertens all time record of 15 stage wins. All this in 3 tours by the age of 25. In terms of stage wins per TdF, nobody comes anywhere near Cavendish. I don't particularly like the guy, but his record speaks for itself.

Is there any doubt who has been the best sprinter is on this tour? It hasn't been Petacchi. It hasn't been Hushovd. It has been Cavendish. Petacchi and Hushovd know it too. When Cav winds up he leaves the others trailing in his wake, they can't even hold his wheel. Yet these two guys are ahead of Cavendish on points for the green jersey.

It begs the question as to what is the point of the green jersey when the TdF's most prolific stage winner ever can't win it even once over 3 Tours.

The green jersey with its odd distribution of points seems to value consistent mediocre performances more than it values brilliance.

If you think the best sprinter is someone who is fastest in the last 200 meters after being escorted there, then the green jersey is truly irrelevant. Give the green jersey to the whole HTC team if that is the way you think it should be awarded. The saddest part is that Cavendish would be a great sprinter without the HTC train. I don't think he would have as many wins as now, but he would still have a lot. He obviously doesn't even need Renshaw. I think Robbie McEwen described the sad state of sprinting the best in a post race interview in Bourdeaux. He said something to the effect that when you're working alone there really isn't much you can do.

 

[asdfgh101]

If you think the best sprinter is someone who is fastest in the last 200 meters after being escorted there, then the green jersey is truly irrelevant. Give the green jersey to the whole HTC team if that is the way you think it should be awarded. The saddest part is that Cavendish would be a great sprinter without the HTC train. I don't think he would have as many wins as now, but he would still have a lot. He obviously doesn't even need Renshaw. I think Robbie McEwen described the sad state of sprinting the best in a post race interview in Bourdeaux. He said something to the effect that when you're working alone there really isn't much you can do.

Why do we live in a world where most people seem to contradict themselves?

First of all the sprinters' teams are required to keep the pace high in the final kilometres to prevent counter-attacks and to keep their rider's in good positions; consequently the field is strung out which helps to prevent crashes.

Cavendish has shown that he does not require a train, as did McEwen in his pomp (his problem now is one of pace, not the lack of a train). The best pure sprinter is he who is fastest in the last 200m; the winner of the Green Jersey is he who wins the most points (however the classification is set up).

With regards to Renshaw he is an asset to Cavendish because of his ability to lead him into a winning position. Renshaw does the barging for position and follows the right wheel so that Cavendish preserves the maximum amount of energy.

There is nothing stopping a rider equal to Cavendish performing a sprint similar to the manxman's stage 18 effort; the simple fact is that Cavendish is far and away the best sprinter of his generation and with that comes a lot of success. Hopefully Farrar et al can close the gap so that sprints are less of a fait accompli.

 

[goggalor]

IMO with six stages Cav should win the entire Tour, let alone the maillot vert. Stuff Contador, I bet he can't even outsprint Greipel.

 

[The Sheep]

I have an idea -- why not just make the guy who wins the most stages the winner of the whole damn race! It make the Tour real simple for all the Huffy riders out there to understand -- no weird jerseys or screwy point systems to worry about.

That used to be the way the tour was won in the beginning.

 

[cycledp]

Why do we live in a world where most people seem to contradict themselves?

First of all the sprinters' teams are required to keep the pace high in the final kilometres to prevent counter-attacks and to keep their rider's in good positions; consequently the field is strung out which helps to prevent crashes.

Cavendish has shown that he does not require a train, as did McEwen in his pomp (his problem now is one of pace, not the lack of a train). The best pure sprinter is he who is fastest in the last 200m; the winner of the Green Jersey is he who wins the most points (however the classification is set up).

With regards to Renshaw he is an asset to Cavendish because of his ability to lead him into a winning position. Renshaw does the barging for position and follows the right wheel so that Cavendish preserves the maximum amount of energy.

There is nothing stopping a rider equal to Cavendish performing a sprint similar to the manxman's stage 18 effort; the simple fact is that Cavendish is far and away the best sprinter of his generation and with that comes a lot of success. Hopefully Farrar et al can close the gap so that sprints are less of a fait accompli.

I'm not sure what your point is since we agree that Cavendish doesn't need his train. He would still be one of the best sprinters of all time without his train, though I don't think he would have as many wins as he does now since he would be using more energy before the last 200 meters of the race. I just think the sprints would be more exciting without HTC's strategy, as their sprint wins have been much more of a team effort in my opinon. I agree that Renshaw is an asset. That's my point. Another team should hire Renshaw away as their sprinter. It would be good for Renshaw and good for the sport, as the sprints would be much more exciting to watch. Guess I just wasn't clear enough in my first post.

 

[asdfgh101]

So you want more chaotic finishes?

Fair enough, but next year might be better anyway in terms of sprinters at the tour; a healthy Tyler Farrar, Andre Greipel, JJ Haedo, Heinrich Haussler, Tom Boonen, Francesco Chicchi??

 

[Tugboat]

The best sprinter the TdF has seen can't win the green jersey because he can't be arsed to give it a try. [/thread]

Bingo. When has Cav ever stuck his head out in the wind in anything other than the last 200m of a stage?

 

[cycledp]

So you want more chaotic finishes?

Fair enough, but next year might be better anyway in terms of sprinters at the tour; a healthy Tyler Farrar, Andre Greipel, JJ Haedo, Heinrich Haussler, Tom Boonen, Francesco Chicchi??

Absolutely! Just like the early 2000s. Unfortunately, the sprinters you mention will never be able to compete against the HTC team/train who believe sucess is winning the most races even if the races are not that important. Perhaps that is the unfortunate economic reality of the situation. Saxo Bank won Flanders, Roubaix and almost won the Tour de France, but they are the ones looking for new sponsorship rather than HTC. Oh well. Looks as if the former sprint contenders like Boonen, Friere, Hushovd, Haussler and others will have to concentrate exclusively on the spring classics instead.

 

[offbyone]

Why people don't understand that the green jersey = the points jersey not the sprinters jersey is beyond me.

But there is another valid perspective that should be considered. The sprinters don't need a special jersey, because they get on the podium every single time they win.

 

[sienna]

Maybe the Man from the Isle of Man should look at how McEwen and Zabel achieved their greens.
IMO he's over-reliant on his lead-outs.

 

[Polyarmour]

The Green Jersey IS the sprinter's jersey. That's why it was introduced, to reward the sprinters.

The yellow jersey rewards the cyclist with the best all round abilities and it does this very well. But what does the Green Jersey reward? Certainly not the best sprinter.

Change the distribution of those points and you would get a different winner of the Green Jersey. Who says a win should be only worth 35 points, why not 40 points, why not 50 points? The Green Jersey is a totally subjective construct that ultimately doesn't mean a lot. Cavendish's 4 wins however really mean something.

 

[53 x 11]

The Green Jersey IS the sprinter's jersey. That's why it was introduced, to reward the sprinters.

The yellow jersey rewards the cyclist with the best all round abilities and it does this very well. But what does the Green Jersey reward? Certainly not the best sprinter.

Ummmmmm. No.

Yellow. Lowest accumulated time.

Green Highest accumulated points.

That is all.

No Gersey is specifically a sprinters or whatever. What they are will depend on the course each year. Note how Evans won the "POINTS" jersey at the giro this year, he was the most consistent rider over highly varied stages.

Cav hasn't won the green, Cipo didn't either, hasn't bothered him.

 

[Jericho]

Bingo. When has Cav ever stuck his head out in the wind in anything other than the last 200m of a stage?

This...

but also remember that...

(1) Cavendish probably WOULD have won the green in 2008 if he didn't leave for the Olympics

(2) Cavendish would have Won green in 2009 if he wasn't DQ'd on that one stage

(3) Cavendish still has a shot to win green in 2010 with a little help. And that's including a stage he crashed out on, a neutered stage, and another in which he dogged it to the line (where Petacchi won).

It's not like Cavendish can't win green. He doesn't bother for intermediate points and he sucks on hills. But for only sprinting for wins, he's really had some bad luck not to win one by this point.

 

[Steel4Ever]

the green jersey is the sprinter's jersey. That's why it was introduced, to reward the sprinters.

no!!!
No it was not!!!

Gah!!!

 

[Steel4Ever]

I have an idea -- why not just make the guy who wins the most stages the winner of the whole damn race! It make the Tour real simple for all the Huffy riders out there to understand -- no weird jerseys or screwy point systems to worry about.

Hey everyone! Cav has just won 2 Tours on the trot! Congrats!

IMO with six stages Cav should win the entire Tour...

That used to be the way the tour was won in the beginning.

See...not such a bad idea!
Get back to the roots!