The best sprinter the TdF has seen can't win the green jersey

[jazzcyclist]

Why should he change his tactics? If he hadn't crashed on stage 1 he would have won. I didn't see Petacchi going off hunting intermediate sprints (he contested one all Tour, and only because Hushovd went for it). He won it by getting 7 top three finishes (plus an 8th) to Cavendish's six.

What tactical change would you suggest. I'm sure he'd like to benefit from your superior wisdom.

The reason Petacchi won the green jersey is because unlike Cavendish, he doesn't sit up when he can't when the stage.

 

[Mambo95]

The reason Petacchi won the green jersey is because unlike Cavendish, he doesn't sit up when he can't when the stage.

He did a bit on stage 5. Not quite as obviously.

But that's exactly my point, Petacchi got high finishes on all the sprint stages. Hrotha was rolling his/her eyes at the idea Cavendish won't change tactics, clearly showing little grasp of how the competition was actually won.

 

[hrotha]

He did a bit on stage 5. Not quite as obviously.

But that's exactly my point, Petacchi got high finishes on all the sprint stages. Hrotha was rolling his/her eyes at the idea Cavendish won't change tactics, clearly showing little grasp of how the competition was actually won.

Actually I was rolling my eyes at Cavendish's idea that a goal is something you don't try to get at all and just sort of happens. The only thing he has to do to win the jersey is to contest the intermediate sprints and to try to get as many points as possible in the finish line even if he can't win the stage. Obviously Cavendish is so superior he might well win the green jersey without even trying one of these years, but that doesn't mean he's actually fighting for it, and for him to claim it's his goal and something he's fought for is silly.

Imagine a rider who claimed he wanted to win the GC but then sat up and lost 10-15 seconds whenever he couldn't win a stage, didn't chase other GC contenders and in general just rode to win stages. Sure, he may win the GC in the end anyway, but that doesn't mean he's doing it right.

If you don't trust my cycling credentials I guess you can ask Hushovd and Petacchi.

 

[marinoni]

The Tfd?

Well, the organizers of the Tfd call that points competition a sprinters competition.

I wonder how you win the points competition these days... By gaining points in intermediate SPRINTS and finishing high on FLAT stages. How are most flat stages won in the Tour? By a MASS SPRINT.

Where do they call it that?

 

[Polyarmour]

The Green jersey is clearly a sprinters competition. Look at who competes in it, (sprinters), look at who wins it (sprinters) , look at who the points allocations favour, (sprinters).

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.... it's a duck. So please, no more of this nonsense about it being a points competition and not a sprinters competition.

If it's a sprinters competition then, you don't want the 2nd or 3rd best sprinter winning it, you want the best sprinter winning it.... surely? The question is... did the points allocations award the Green Jersey to the right person? Was it a fair result?

Have a look at the top 3 results

Petacchi: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 8th 10th: 243 points
Cavendish: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 9th, 12th: 232 points
Hushovd: 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 7th, 9th 10th, 10th, 11th, 14th: 222 points

This doesn't include the intermediate sprints (which I don't have) and which influence the outcome too but to a lesser extent.

The points system is telling us that these three guys were very closely matched. If you take Cav as the central pivot, Petacchi and Hushovd are within +or- 5% of Cav's result.

Complete nonsense. It's a sprinters competition and Cav was by far and away the best sprinter. He totally dominated Petacchi yet history will remember him as the winner of the Green Jersey.

 

[hrotha]

Well, unless I'm missing something, Petacchi got a grand total of 6 points at intermediate sprints (stage 10), while Hushovd got 20 points (stages 9, 10 & 12).

It would seem there's only been one intermediate sprint contested by the peloton (stage 10, where Petacchi beat Hushovd and McEwen) so that wouldn't have allowed Cavendish to win anyway. Although if the green jersey was truly his objective he could have had some breakaways neutralized or caught before a sprint. Note he didn't sprint in stage 10.

Anyway, at the end of the day Petacchi built that point difference in regular sprints to the finish line.

 

[Boeing]

Mark Cavendish now has 14 Tour de France stage wins. In all likelihood he will bag another one this tour which will equal Freddy Maertens all time record of 15 stage wins. All this in 3 tours by the age of 25. In terms of stage wins per TdF, nobody comes anywhere near Cavendish. I don't particularly like the guy, but his record speaks for itself.

Is there any doubt who has been the best sprinter is on this tour? It hasn't been Petacchi. It hasn't been Hushovd. It has been Cavendish. Petacchi and Hushovd know it too. When Cav winds up he leaves the others trailing in his wake, they can't even hold his wheel. Yet these two guys are ahead of Cavendish on points for the green jersey.

It begs the question as to what is the point of the green jersey when the TdF's most prolific stage winner ever can't win it even once over 3 Tours.

The green jersey with its odd distribution of points seems to value consistent mediocre performances more than it values brilliance.

If he didn't quit trying every time he was out of position he'd be there

 

[Steel4Ever]

He totally dominated Petacchi yet history will remember him as the winner of the Green Jersey.

Then, polydolt, I guess "The Green Jersey" is NOT a competition for the best sprinter -- it's a competition for POINTS...as pointed out by one of the world's best sprinters and Green Jersey/Point Competition winner, Ale-Jet.

Obviously Cavendouche is a faster sprinter, he won five stages, but he's not the superior point collector/hunter. Too bad for him. He wants his cake but isn't willing to bake it. Boo hoo.

As with pharmfans, believe what you will.

 

[Cervelo77]

Well, the organizers of the Tfd call that points competition a sprinters competition.

I wonder how you win the points competition these days... By gaining points in intermediate SPRINTS and finishing high on FLAT stages. How are most flat stages won in the Tour? By a MASS SPRINT.

Cadel won the points jersey in the Giro because he won the most points. The scoring system for the green jersey in TDF is the same. End of story. Also, this is what the TDF has to say about the maillot vert:
"Maillot Vert pour le classement général par points"

Cav needs to get better at collecting points if he wants to win a points jersey.
One gets a stage win for winning a sprint, which is prize enough in itself.

 

[SpartacusRox]

Then, polydolt, I guess "The Green Jersey" is NOT a competition for the best sprinter -- it's a competition for POINTS...as pointed out by one of the world's best sprinters and Green Jersey/Point Competition winner, Ale-Jet.

Obviously Cavendouche is a faster sprinter, he won five stages, but he's not the superior point collector/hunter. Too bad for him. He wants his cake but isn't willing to bake it. Boo hoo.

As with pharmfans, believe what you will.

Cavendouche? You are a nasty little man aren't you. I find it sad that people such as you get off on making up snide and pathetic names for great riders. A little like one poster on here who has a picture of an injured rider as his avatar...sick.

Actually he doesn't want his cake and he was first to congratulate Pettachi on his victory and in his interview basically said that the victory was Pettachi's before the stage began barring bad luck.

Cav has consistently spoke well at his interviews, has not made one out of place comment and has always thanked his team. You may take issue with that, I certainly don't and I am happy that today he showed beyond doubt that he is easily the fastest sprinter in the world.

 

[M Sport]

Cadel won the points jersey in the Giro because he won the most points. The scoring system for the green jersey in TDF is the same. End of story.

Just for your information the points scoring systems in the Giro and TdF are a bit different. In the Giro all stage wins have the same points value, in the TdF they are graded higher for flat stages lower for rolling etc. That's why an all rounder like Cadel can win the points jersey at the Giro but would have no chance at the points jersey at the tour.

Otherwise agree with the other knowledgeable ones here. It's a points jersey, not a sprinters jersey.

 

[Steel4Ever]

Cavendouche? You are a nasty little man aren't you. I find it sad that people such as you get off on making up snide and pathetic names for great riders. A little like one poster on here who has a picture of an injured rider as his avatar...sick.

Actually he doesn't want his cake and he was first to congratulate Pettachi on his victory and in his interview basically said that the victory was Pettachi's before the stage began barring bad luck.

Cav has consistently spoke well at his interviews, has not made one out of place comment and has always thanked his team. You may take issue with that, I certainly don't and I am happy that today he showed beyond doubt that he is easily the fastest sprinter in the world.

Boo hoo.

...

 

[bobmcpartland]

Yup, pretty sure its called the Points classification, not the sprinters classification.

I agree with you, this should be the end ofm the discussion now as there isn nothing to discuss . The is no sprinters jersey.

 

[Big GMaC]

Even Andre Greipel can win a Points Jersey, at a Grand Tour where flat stages have a lower reward

 

[Ferminal]

Even Andre Greipel can win a Points Jersey, at a Grand Tour where flat stages have a lower reward

A Grand Tour? What's that? Some sh*tty little race?

 

[Elagabalus]

Cavendouche? You are a nasty little man aren't you ...

OK, I'm starting to believe that you may even actually BE a prosecutor!!!

 

[SpartacusRox]

Boo hoo.

...

That is about the most intelligent thing you have ever posted....well done!

 

[Jeepers_ie]

So your saying Hushovd dragging his big body over climbs with climbers half the size of him last year, not to mention this year as well, for 6 measly sprint points isn't brilliance? Though I do see your point, the green jersey is being rewarded to a guy this year who has two stage wins, and lots of top three finishes. In my opinion, the two riders who have won the green jersey the last two years have done it through exceptional performances. If Cavendish isn't willing to do anything in a bike race not in the comfort of his cozy sprint train, than he'll never win the jersey, or deserve to win it, simple as that.

+1. That sums it up. It's not the sprinters' jersey, it's the points jersey, for the guy who finishes most consistently.

 

[eztarget]

As others have said the Tour isn't just about sprinting. It's a 3 week grueling torture test agaisnt the body. If the Tour was just about sprinting then a sprinter would win it every year. The tour is about sprinting, climbing and TT'ing. The later two usually decide the race.

Remember the rabbit and the turtle ... slow and steady wins the race.

If Cavendish wants the Green jersey then maybe he'd learn to climb a little better.

 

[Steel4Ever]

+1. That sums it up. It's not the sprinters' jersey, it's the points jersey, for the guy who finishes most consistently.

+1!

So much wisdom after only three pots!
You could teach a few newbies around here a thing or two.

 

[Steel4Ever]

That is about the most intelligent thing you have ever posted....well done!

'Cause we all know this forum is about displays of intelligence.

 

[Four Winds]

If Cavendish wants the Green jersey then maybe he'd learn to climb a little better.

Not quite as simple as that. If he concentrated more on climbing then his sprinting would probably suffer. Plus I think his climbing has improved since 2-3 years ago, he's certainly got over a few hills many people hadn't expected.

I also wonder if Hushovd's lack of firepower in the bunch sprints had anything to do with him trying to mop up intermediates in the mountains rather than sitting in the autobus and conserving energy. I think he only gained 20 points that way? He lost way more than that in the last 3 sprints, but maybe he felt he wasn't sprinting well anyway? Perhaps that's why Cav "doesn't bother" as some have put it because he feels he would loose more points in the long run. What use is 6 points if you duff your sprint at the end of the stage and loose 10. After all Petacchi only contested 1 sprint (6 points) and he still won the jersey by 9 points.

Hushovd also lost possible 18 points in Spa with neutralised sprint, but he did end up 21 behind Petacchi.

Cav will win Green. If he keeps doing what he's doing it will come to him. With a wee bit of luck he could have had 2 already.

 

[Jeepers_ie]

The most consistent rider in the Giro was Ivan Basso.... this fact is beyond dispute. Cadel was just some guy who came 5th and his winning of the "points competition" was a bizarre byproduct of him trying and failing to win the Giro. You may as well have pulled his name out of a hat and rewarded him, it would have the same meaning.

Where was Basso in the mud and misery of Montalcino? How about his TT performances (37th in prologue, 6th in mountain TT, 15th in the final)? Evans beat him in every TT, including the mountain one. Basso was the best climber, but Evans was far and away the most consistent, with Vino his only real competition for consistency.

 

[Jeepers_ie]

+1!

So much wisdom after only three pots!
You could teach a few newbies around here a thing or two.

Cheers! I might be new here, but I didn't come down in the last shower.

 

[Polyarmour]

Where was Basso in the mud and misery of Montalcino? How about his TT performances (37th in prologue, 6th in mountain TT, 15th in the final)? Evans beat him in every TT, including the mountain one. Basso was the best climber, but Evans was far and away the most consistent, with Vino his only real competition for consistency.

Fair comment Jeepers, I think might concede this one.

As someone else pointed out though, the points competition in the Giro is not directed at sprinters like they are in the TdF as points are awarded for all stages. In the TdF points are skewed towards the flat stages which favour the sprinters. When they decided the points structure in the Tdf they were targetting the sprinters to keep them interested in attending the TdF. That's why it's a sprinters jersey and that's why Cadel would never win it.