Teams & Riders The Big 6

[Peyroteo94]

Clearly Remco is THE best ITT rider

FLAT ITT rider

 

[CyclistAbi]

We love them all and that is what is the most important thing here.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Ah, ok. Fair enough. We had two quotes of the same comment, which both added nothing but quote: "This." Could have been achieved with a like, and didn't add much to the thread.

Very valid point:

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There are a number of people who ought to be aware of this one. I haven't acted on it (at all, I don't think), but I find such posts pretty tedious.

 

[Berniece]

FLAT ITT rider

lol, then why did Pogi lose the first ITT in the TDF?

 

[Peyroteo94]

Too flat, evidently

TT was over 52 kph. Can Remco beat Pogacar in a under 49 kph TT? Don't think so.

 

[Berniece]

TT was over 52 kph. Can Remco beat Pogacar in a under 49 kph TT? Don't think so.

I'm not even sure why I'm bothering, but your statement is ridiculous.

	Evenepoel	Pogacar
H2H	6	1
WC ITT titles	2	0
ITT podiums	33	15
ITT podiums (in %)	75%	48.3%

 

[Peyroteo94]

I'm not even sure why I'm bothering, but your statement is ridiculous.

	Evenepoel	Pogacar
H2H	6	1
WC ITT titles	2	0
ITT podiums	33	15
ITT podiums (in %)	75%	48.3%

Show me TTs under 49 kph? The vast majority of TTs are mostly fast (over 51 kph). In hilly TT, Remco is not the best like you want to pretend but can't show evidence.

 

[AmRacer]

I'm not even sure why I'm bothering, but your statement is ridiculous.

	Evenepoel	Pogacar
H2H	6	1
WC ITT titles	2	0
ITT podiums	33	15
ITT podiums (in %)	75%	48.3%

How many of them are flat, mountain and very hilly? How many of them did both target?

 

[Peyroteo94]

How many of them are flat, mountain and very hilly? How many of them did both target?

I just said best in flat TT. If most TTs (e.g. WC) were MTTs (or hilly TTs) would we consider Remco the best? Of course not.

 

[Berniece]

Show me TTs under 49 kph? The vast majority of TTs are mostly fast (over 51 kph). In hilly TT, Remco is not the best like you want to pretend but can't show evidence.

He won Dauphine at 49.3, Algarve at 48.6, 2nd in Suisse last year at 47 while not in form, San Juan in 2020 he won at 48kph.

Show me he isn't the best. Who do you think is better? If you're going to say Pogi you are completely delusional.

 

[Peyroteo94]

If we combine the time of 3 TTs (a MTT, a hilly TT and a flat TT), who would be faster? Pogacar, Remco or Vingegaard?
Conditions of TTs:
MTT (Colle delle Finestre)
45 km Hilly TT at 45 kph
54 km flat TT at 54 kph.
These 3 would take one hour to be done. Who would have the best combined time? This rider should be considered the best ITT rider.

 

[Peyroteo94]

He won Dauphine at 49.3, Algarve at 48.6, 2nd in Suisse last year at 47 while not in form, San Juan in 2020 he won at 48kph.

Show me he isn't the best. Who do you think is better? If you're going to say Pogi you are completely delusional.

I would take July Vingegaard and peak Pogacar any day.
Show me H2H with Pogacar

 

[Berniece]

If we combine the time of 3 TTs (a MTT, a hilly TT and a flat TT), who would be faster? Pogacar, Remco or Vingegaard?
Conditions of TTs:
MTT (Colle delle Finestre)
45 km Hilly TT at 45 kph
54 km flat TT at 54 kph.
These 3 would take one hour to be done. Who would have the best combined time? This rider should be considered the best ITT rider.

This is just a random thing you construct, that we'll never be able to test. We can only look at actual results, I showed you that Evenepoel also rides great hilly time trials, so you try something else. Keep moving the goal post.

 

[Berflamand]

If we combine the time of 3 TTs (a MTT, a hilly TT and a flat TT), who would be faster? Pogacar, Remco or Vingegaard?
Conditions of TTs:
MTT (Colle delle Finestre)
45 km Hilly TT at 45 kph
54 km flat TT at 54 kph.
These 3 would take one hour to be done. Who would have the best combined time? This rider should be considered the best ITT rider.

This is ridiculous imo.

So, would Fabian Cancellara or Tony Martin not be considered the best ITT rider at the time of their peaks because they would lose 15 minutes on a one hour MTT?

 

[Peyroteo94]

This is ridiculous imo.

So, would Fabian Cancellara or Tony Martin not be considered the best ITT rider at the time of their peaks because they would lose 15 minutes on a one hour MTT?

It is not ridiculous. ITT is an individual effort, why should we think a TT should be an individual effort on flat roads? The vast majority of TT are flat, why? Best ITT rider should be the one who can do a great individual effort in any type of terrain. A rider like Remco, Pogacar, Roglic, Vingegaard, etc.
Like I said in the post you replied.

 

[Berflamand]

It is not ridiculous. ITT is an individual effort, why should we think a TT should be an individual effort on flat roads? The vast majority of TT are flat, why? Best ITT rider should be the one who can do a great individual effort in any type of terrain. A rider like Remco, Pogacar, Roglic, Vingegaard, etc.
Like I said in the post you replied.

I think because a MTT is not that different from a (hard) mountain top finish. The best climber will (probably) win both.

While a flat TT is obviously totally different compared to a flat stage. A flat TT is a unique race while the hillier a TT gets the more it will resemble a normal hilly/mountaineous road race imo and we get more of the same winners.

If all TT's were hilly/mountaineous ITT specialists like Ganna, Tarling, Kung, Affini, ... wouldn't have much of a chance anymore against the usual suspects.

 

[Peyroteo94]

This is just a random thing you construct, that we'll never be able to test. We can only look at actual results, I showed you that Evenepoel also rides great hilly time trials, so you try something else. Keep moving the goal post.

You still didn't answer me. I can show you how many wins Pogacar has in TT under 49 kph since 2020
He has 4/6 wins. Lost to Roglic in 2021 Pais Vasco and Vingegaard in 2023 Tour.
Remco has 1/7 wins. Lost in 2021 Olympics and 2021 to Roglic, lost in 2022 and 2024 Pais Vasco to Roglic, lost in 2023 TdS to Ayuso, lost in 2023 National TT to WVA. Lost in 2024 Tour to Pogacar. One win in Argentina, back in 2020...
I gave you evidence, not my opinion, just facts.

 

[Berniece]

You still didn't answer me. I can show you how many wins Pogacar has in TT under 49 kph since 2020
He has 4/6 wins. Lost to Roglic in 2021 Pais Vasco and Vingegaard in 2023 Tour.
Remco has 1/7 wins. Lost in 2021 Olympics and 2021 to Roglic, lost in 2022 and 2024 Pais Vasco to Roglic, lost in 2023 TdS to Ayuso, lost in 2023 National TT to WVA. Lost in 2024 Tour to Pogacar. One win in Argentina, back in 2020...
I gave you evidence, not my opinion, just facts.

Lol, I stopped reading after you said Olympics 2021. If that's your level of argument, conversation is over. You keep believing Pogi is the better TT'er. Nothing shows that this is actually the case, but don't stop believin.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I think because a MTT is not that different from a (hard) mountain top finish. The best climber will (probably) win both.

While a flat TT is obviously totally different compared to a flat stage. A flat TT is a unique race while the hillier a TT gets the more it will resemble a normal hilly/mountaineous road race imo and we get more of the same winners.

If all TT's were hilly/mountaineous ITT specialists like Ganna, Kung, Affini, ... wouldn't have much of a chance anymore against the usual suspects.

But why when we talk about ITT, we assume it's an individual effort in flat roads?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Lol, I stopped reading after you said Olympics 2021. If that's your level of argument, conversation is over. You keep believing Pogi is the better TT'er. Nothing shows that this is actually the case, but don't stop believin.

I think it's about various TTs. Remco is the best on flat/rolling TTs but at some point below 50 kph (I don't know where exactly) Pogacar's assets (superior w/kg, better downhills) become more important. I'm not even talking about pure uphill TTs (where the best climber obviously wins) but about some kind of hilly TTs of varying climbing degree (and this year Pog showed ridiculous solo rides on such terrain as well).

 

[Berniece]

I think it's about various TTs. Remco is the best on flat/rolling TTs but at some point below 50 kph (I don't know where exactly) Pogacar's assets (superior w/kg, better downhills) become more important. I'm not even talking about pure uphill TTs (where the best climber obviously wins) but about some kind of hilly TTs of varying degree (and this year Pog showed ridiculous solo rides on such terrain as well).

I understand that, I think so too that there's a moment that Pogi would win an ITT from Evenepoel, depending on the circumstances. I just don't that makes him the better TT'er in general. The amount of time trials Evenepoel could win, is higher than the other way around.

Like someone else said, Cancellara/Martin were the best of their era, but just because they would lose time uphill makes them a worse time trialist? You can lose way more time uphill. Cancellara could put 4-5min into a climber on a flat TT, but then lose +10min on a mountain TT. Does that make that person who would never win any WC ITT, suddenly the better TT'er? That's not what time trialing is about.

 

[rallybanana]

• The Splendid One: Pogacar
• The Also Big Ones: Evenepoel, Van der Poel, Vingegaard, Roglic
• The Still Big One In Between Two Rehabilitations: Van Aert
• The Occasionally Capable of Beating the Big Ones When on a Good Day: Philipsen, Pedersen, Ganna, Jorgenson.

Big One a Few Years Ago: Alaphilippe
Big One a Decade Ago: Froome

 

[scribers]

Big one in this forum = me

 

[hayneplane]

Big One a Few Years Ago: Alaphilippe
Big One a Decade Ago: Froome

Never Alaphillipe. He was just a lesser version of Wout Van Aert but with a few bigger wins.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Never Alaphillipe. He was just a lesser version of Wout Van Aert but with a few bigger wins.

Prime alaphiipe was a better rider than van aert ever was