Teams & Riders The Red Bull - Bora - Hansgrohe team thread

[Colonel]

Like I wrote before, Gamper is a lock.
Hindley loves him as his bodyguard.

With Higuita not in shape, I wonder if they think about bringing Uijtdebroeks.

Uijtdebroeks is not an option at all for the Tour.

 

[Anderis]

This looks a bit weird. They don't take Bennett but they obviously still hope to do something in the sprints, otherwise taking both Van Poppel and Meeus would be redundant, as they already have Politt and Haller to protect Hindley on the flat. I also thought Higuita was certain to ride but he didn't show much since Itzulia so I guess it can be justified to leave him out.

 

[Tim Cahill]

"All in for Buchmann!" - Bora

 

[Earns1985]

The last spot will be filled with a climber type rider.

Options are in my eyes Higuita, Zwiehoff, Konrad and perhaps Schachmann. So Gamper not in the team..

 

[yaco]

S.Bennett has made some interesting career choices - last three years at Bora he never went to the TDF, then he returns to Bora and misses the TDF for the last two years.

 

[Mayomaniac]

The last spot will be filled with a climber type rider.

Options are in my eyes Higuita, Zwiehoff, Konrad and perhaps Schachmann. So Gamper not in the team..

Or whoever wins the German NC for them...

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Bennett missing is fair I think, he hasn't really performed despite having the best lead out in the world tour. Giving Meeus the change to show something is reasonable.
What worries me is that there hasn't been clear communication that Buchmann will be purely a domestique so I reckon he's allowed to ride on his own for like 12th place in GC which is hilarious.

 

[kingjr]

Bennett missing is fair I think, he hasn't really performed despite having the best lead out in the world tour. Giving Meeus the change to show something is reasonable.
What worries me is that there hasn't been clear communication that Buchmann will be purely a domestique so I reckon he's allowed to ride on his own for like 12th place in GC which is hilarious.

Perhaps just out of consideration for the German public broadcasters, so that they have at least a small reason to show the race

 

[Mayomaniac]

Bennett missing is fair I think, he hasn't really performed despite having the best lead out in the world tour. Giving Meeus the change to show something is reasonable.
What worries me is that there hasn't been clear communication that Buchmann will be purely a domestique so I reckon he's allowed to ride on his own for like 12th place in GC which is hilarious.

Nothing against Meeus, but has he ever raced with Van Poppel as his leadout man before? Because testing that set-up in a race for the first time at the Tour would be a bit of a strange move. Results wise he probably deserves to be there over Bennett, but I have to think that more potential stagehunters who can also support Hindley (like Schachmann, who looked good in TdS) would actually have a better chance of winnning a stage and be better at supporting Hindley.

Kämna is probably cooked after the Giro, but I bet Hindley would like to have him there for the high mountains. Higuita has been a total enigma since Itzulia, otherwise he'd be a lock and the team would look much stronger.

Konrad did Catalunya, Tota, LBL, Frankfurt and the Giro while being in the breakaway a lot during the 2nd half of the race, so he's probably a bit overraced/not ready for the Giro-Tour double. I also rate him higher in the medium mountains and on hilly terrain than in the high mountains (he has always been a "Valverde at home" type of rider).

Edit: I'd leave the final spot for Zwiehoff or Schachmann and maybe I'd replace Haller with Gamper, if Hindley trusts him more and really wants to have him there (but Haller + Politt is a really solid duo for hectic flat stages).

 

[Billie]

Another team which hates their top sprinter.

Let's pay a lot of money for a guy who has multiple victories in each of his last 5 GTs and not take him.

No way Meeus is more likely to win a sprint than Bennett.

 

[Remy55]

I really expected Gamper, but they gave Haller the Job. It will be interesting to see who is part of the sprint train and who keeps Hindley out of trouble in the flat stages.

I think Zwiehof would be a good choice for the 8th spot.

 

[Remy55]

Meeus over Bennett is logical if you watched his sprints this season. He has a really good speed, but normally has to start his sprint from way too behind. With a Van Poppel leadout he has a good chance to compete for stage wins.

 

[Faserr]

Meeus is the better allround rider who can also go in the breaks or help Hindley. I don't even know if they sprint for van Poppel or Meeus.
Bennett was placed too much in the perfect position without delivering anything and going backwards while Meeus got good results on his own.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Nothing against Meeus, but has he ever raced with Van Poppel as his leadout man before? Because testing that set-up in a race for the first time at the Tour would be a bit of a strange move. Results wise he probably deserves to be there over Bennett, but I have to think that more potential stagehunters who can also support Hindley (like Schachmann, who looked good in TdS) would actually have a better chance of winnning a stage and be better at supporting Hindley.

Kämna is probably cooked after the Giro, but I bet Hindley would like to have him there for the high mountains. Higuita has been a total enigma since Itzulia, otherwise he'd be a lock and the team would look much stronger.

Konrad did Catalunya, Tota, LBL, Frankfurt and the Giro while being in the breakaway a lot during the 2nd half of the race, so he's probably a bit overraced/not ready for the Giro-Tour double. I also rate him higher in the medium mountains and on hilly terrain than in the high mountains (he has always been a "Valverde at home" type of rider).

Edit: I'd leave the final spot for Zwiehoff or Schachmann and maybe I'd replace Haller with Gamper, if Hindley trusts him more and really wants to have him there (but Haller + Politt is a really solid duo for hectic flat stages).

Zwihoff is decent but hasn't been on a training camp since January

Kamna should be kept away from stress of le tour given his temperament, after doing a big Giro

Konrad is not the best for col dela loze type climbs as you say

Higuita is bad and is another poor man's valverde

Fabbro just probably isn't good enough.

I would sign Superman last minute on a 6 month contract and fly him straight after vuelta Colombia to europe

 

[Reynard]

Zwihoff is decent but hasn't been on a training camp since January

Kamna should be kept away from stress of le tour given his temperament, after doing a big Giro

Konrad is not the best for col dela loze type climbs as you say

Higuita is bad and is another poor man's valverde

Fabbro just probably isn't good enough.

I would sign Superman last minute on a 6 month contract and fly him straight after vuelta Colombia to europe

Don't think the training camp think matter if he is in decent form (Tour of Slovenia would suggest that).

We should also just state that it is not important how this eigth rider is doing on col de la loze. They have Buchmann and Jungels there who are the two guys that should stay deeper into the race with Hindley and position him at key points. When UAE or Jumbo kicks it of then it is only down to Hindley to stay close and come back to the wheels when it slows. There's no domestique outside of Kuss and Yates (maybe Kelderman or Soler on there days) that can be of help there at this point.

I thin that eigth rider should be capable to climb over moutnains in apeleton of 40-50 and go with moves to act as a defensive sattelite (or have an outside shot at a stage win if GC breaks down). Konrad would be the best guy for that but the Giro was hard for him so he would be a late addition. Zwiehoff and Aleotti would work quite great in that which is similar to the Giro last year.

Bennett missing is fair I think, he hasn't really performed despite having the best lead out in the world tour. Giving Meeus the change to show something is reasonable.
What worries me is that there hasn't been clear communication that Buchmann will be purely a domestique so I reckon he's allowed to ride on his own for like 12th place in GC which is hilarious.

Can we please stop with that stupid *** about Buchmann. i think most people here understand dynamics in cycling and rider management. Outside of the decision of the team in the Giro 22 to don't sacrifice Buchmann's Top 10 to keep Kelderman longer out of the wind in the third week. That was a bad look but if Hindley hasn't won you could also question how Kämna was going for his own chances all the time and in important stages dropped like a stone without doing anything. The hero pull on fedaia just makes people forget the rest of the race. Outside of that Giro Buchmann was a absolutely loyal domestique or workhorse since his bad luck started in 2020. He's pulling in early break control in Eschborn-Frankfurt or Deutschland Tour. He was part of the teams that created those sprint chances for Sagan and dropped all the sprinters. He even pulled for Sagan when his GC chances in the Giro 21 were still intact. He stayed with kelderman in the third week in the Alps 21 when his form was getting better and better.


Bora is a team that works because it is often not an all for one team. Even in the Giro 22 it was only almost everyone for Hindley late. There are clear agreement between the team and the rider about what role they have and when they can rider for there own result even if they are not the captain. Every word we heard and everything we saw in the Dauphine clearly points to Buchmann being there for Hindley as long as possible. If he rides for a 12th place probably Hindley crashed and dropped out and he gets 12th more by accident because the form is better than in the Dauphine and he can just stay longer with people in the third week. but that hat (also in lantern rouge) is a joke and people that care about cycling should no better.


If Buchmann is a problem for some why should they bring Higuita e.g. never saw him pull for a teammate since joining Bora and I wonder if he is even close fighting for stage wins.

 

[search]

Meeus is the better allround rider who can also go in the breaks or help Hindley.

I really don't see how this is supposed to be the case. Bennett is the much better climber than Meeus, and has shown that he is willing to work for the team in the past - just recently in Hungary, for example.

His sprints have mainly been disappointing this year, of course, but as mentioned before, Bennett's preperation was fully focused on the Tour, and after the Dauphiné (according to Meeus) Bora even sent him on a sprint training camp together with van Poppel and Mullen - which is also why the nomination came totally unexpected for Meeus.

So the way this has been handled by the team looks actually really bad. And now they end up with a sprint team that hasn't even trained together much, let alone raced.

 

[yaco]

I really don't see how this is supposed to be the case. Bennett is the much better climber than Meeus, and has shown that he is willing to work for the team in the past - just recently in Hungary, for example.

His sprints have mainly been disappointing this year, of course, but as mentioned before, Bennett's preperation was fully focused on the Tour, and after the Dauphiné (according to Meeus) Bora even sent him on a sprint training camp together with van Poppel and Mullen - which is also why the nomination came totally unexpected for Meeus.

So the way this has been handled by the team looks actually really bad. And now they end up with a sprint team that hasn't even trained together much, let alone raced.

At the end of the day, in the last 5 years that Bennett has been at Bora he has missed selection for the TDF - I have no idea why Bennett returned to Bora.

 

[Billie]

Denk also promised TdF for Ackermann in 2021 and didn't take him.

And then to think what a wonderfull job they did sheduling 3 top sprinters in 2019.

Also in general what a letdown of a season. Up until June last year it looked like the team had really taken the next step and become a topteam with Aldag but now they're further away from that than 4 years ago.

 

[Reynard]

Denk also promised TdF for Ackermann in 2021 and didn't take him.

And then to think what a wonderfull job they did sheduling 3 top sprinters in 2019.

Also in general what a letdown of a season. Up until June last year it looked like the team had really taken the next step and become a topteam with Aldag but now they're further away from that than 4 years ago.

I disagree with the last sentence. They had everything going for them in this smaller stage races and of course with Hindley in the Giro but beyond that the performance of the classic squad and the sprinters were poor. Of course it looks now way worse if you look at the wins but I think they are not that far off in their performance level. Vlasov had an easy win in Romandie last year but look at the startlist and the level of competition this year. Same for Catalunya where Higuita got also a bit lucky last year. In the end they got a guy or two in the Top 10 in every WT stage race but for Paris-Nice. Vlasov got unlucky with covid so his season and prepared plan lead to nothing. But Cian and Hindley look good. If Hindley makes it to 3rd or 4th place in the Tour then that would be in line with what the team achieved also last year. So stage racing is still fine although the results weren't as good as last year but I don't see a systematic problem there.

The sprint and the classic squad still sucks and that is the biggest problem for the team as they don't have a lot of people to compete even in smaller races. Probably the sprinting is the only category where they can make progress with exchanging Bennett but I don't know how they can bolster the broader classic squad. They have to probably rely on Jungels, Haller and Schachmann getting back to their old selves in that races and maybe they hope that meeus or Denz can develop something there. But that is a pretty weak plan. Let's see which transfers they actually announce.

 

[Mayomaniac]

And they gave the final spot on the Tour team to Konrad, who has never been great in the high mountains, raced the whole Giro while being really often in breakaways during the 2nd half of the race, has raced Catalunya, LBL, Frankfuhrt and Tota before the Giro and wasn't even the best Bora rider in the Austrian NC (that ended with an uphill finish).
Really looks more like a team for stagehunting than a team made to support Hindley. I'd have picked Schachmann or Zwiehoff over him.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

So, are they sending Schachmann and Zwiehoff to the Vuelta? You‘d think they‘d deserve to do a Grand Tour this year. They could also let Schachmann do a few Italian fall classics instead, but that doesn’t really clash with the Vuelta.

 

[Statze2]

The Team for the Vuelta could be impressive.
Vlasov as leader, cian as co leader, Higuita as Stage Hunter and Mountain domestique, Kämna for stages, schachmann, zwiehoff and if you want to Go in Full GC/Stage hunting Mode take gamper and aleotti to the Vuelta. I dont believe in sam Bennett as a Sprinter because of the „divorce“

 

[Reynard]

Yeah don't think Bennett has a place in a team with 2 GC options and very likely one or two riders with a lot of freedom (Higuita, maybe Kämna or Denz). In the end it will depend a lot on who is signing for next year Aleotti, Schelling, Wandahl, Lipowitz, Fabbro, Koch would all benefit from riding a GT but are out of contract. Zwiehoff and Gamper have a contract for 24, were a good part of Jais' Giro team and could profit from a GT in their further development. Both aren't young from a cycling in 2023 perspective but I think both are still getting better and better. So it just would make a lot of sense for them to go to the Vuelta.

I think that was the plan for Zwiehoff all along as he wasn't part of the Giro or the Tour preparation camps. Gamper probably just missed out against Politt and Haller. Fabbro was part of the Giro altitude camps but didn't make the team. In my eyes a clear sign for no contract with Bora going forward. Aleotti was in the Giro and gets more responsibility in smaller races. Wouldn't surprise me if he stays without the Vuelta and focus on the Italian fall classics. Wandahl obviously is/was injured don't know what the plan is with him for 24. Koch and Lipowitz were pretty solid domestiques, probably happy to ride WT in a German team. Should be both kept around. Schelling is the hard one. Some wins and good results this year, but is he really fitting in with the team. With their weak classics squad he could get some good leadership chances, but maybe he is better suited to a team more specialised in that kind of races like Lotto, Soudal or Alpecin.

I wouldn't send Schachmann to the Vuelta. He is just getting started and the early results are ok. I would say he should focus on the Deutschland Tour where the course is suited for bid for the win + then have a longer prep slot for the fall classics. I would also have him stay in Europe & send a team around Schelling, Aleotti and maybe post-Tour Hindley.

The schedule in the fall seems to be quite heavy and they have a lot of not that motivated or cycling ready weight in their roster (bennett, Mullen, Archbold, Walls, Koretzky, Konrad/Jungels probably cooked after Giro/Tour double) so can go for Pologne, Germany and Britain GC as a GT substitute. And then obviously Lombardia where Bora has 5-6 riders that could be really great but often it's just a game of luck who has some form left that late into the season.

 

[search]

Bennett will go to Sibiu instead now. Schachmann as well.

 

[Remy55]

Denk said in an interview that they even after Dauphine they planned with Bennett.
After that they had a team camp in Austria, and his performance was not good.
He even said that with those watts he would have no chance to win a stage.