The Chris Squared Thread

[Race Radio]

I think this is an under estimation race radio. From memory Dawg launched his infamous extraterrestrial acceleration to distance Bertie at the 7km mark, at which point Quintans was up the road, 30s to a minute? Dawg caught him in a flash, rode with him for a bit chit chatting to Sir Dave on the radio, then put down the hammer only in the last couple of kms to gap Quintana by the 30s you mentioned.

So he put about a minute into Quintana in only about 3-4km of actual attacking. Which changes his maximal performance somewhat.

I see your point however I also think Quintana burned a lot of matches that day, as did Froome. There are so many variables each stage.

 

[thehog]

In Tirreno fair enough I didn't know Horner claimed to be injured.

Actually Prati Di Tivo is the best example for Chris vs Chris.

Horner didn't hurt his knee until the final road stage (Porto Sant'Elpidio which Acquarone apologised for) and was in good condition for Prati Di Tivo where Froome smoked him easily.

Froome is clearly stronger and much better than Horner.

I don't think there's many doubts on Horner doping so where does that leave Froome?

Horner has released his blood values from day 1 - 2008.

Has Froome?

For me Prati Di Tivo is probably the best example Froome v Horner.

If Horner has a contract for next year then the questioned will ultimately be answered.

For the moment both are highly suspicious.

More so Froome with his unknown weight, in saddle zuper-acceleration and the unexplained disease.

Horner traces the problem back to the final road stage of Tirreno Adriatico, a gruelling day which saw the riders tackle the wall-like Muro di Sant'Elpidio climb in wet, cold conditions. He believes a combination of those weather conditions plus the nature of the climb is what aggravated his leg

“I don’t think it was equipment related at all, but completely down to that stage. I was with Nibali when he was attacking on the last time up that very steep climb. At that point in time it had been raining, it had been cold, it was coming to the end of a tough six hour race. The climb is so steep that I had to adjust my position dramatically on the bike, so that the back tyre didn’t spin…you have to keep weight on the back tyre. Also because the gearing was so large, I had to stand up because you are pushing twenty rpms up this climb.

“My belief is that it was the equivalent of doing one of the hardest bike races in the world, then jumping off multiple times during that race, going to the gym and doing one legged squats. I am pretty certain that is what did it, because it was sore the next day for the time trial.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...g-form-for-Vuelta-a-Espana.aspx#ixzz2gyO2Pcaw

 

[Race Radio]

Actually Prati Di Tivo is the best example for Chris vs Chris.

Horner didn't hurt his knee until the final road stage (Porto Sant'Elpidio which Acquarone apologised for) and was in good condition for Prati Di Tivo where Froome smoked him easily.

Nope. Horner came into the race in less then peak condition, hoping for a top 10. Prior to the Vuelta he was vocal that he could win the race.

Has Froome ever done 6.25 w/kg for 43 minutes?......a real 6.25 w/kg, based on SRM not VAM? Grappe is a smokescreen but even he would question 6.25 w/kg for 43 minutes

Froome says he went full gas on the Agrilu.....but still was 1:30 slower then Horner.

 

[thehog]

Until Froome releases his bio like Horner has we can only question Froome.

Froome beat Horner in a 1 to 1 match-up.

If we think Horner is doping then one can only assume Frome is as well.

Horner was aiming for the podium at TA not “hoping” for a Top 10.

“I’ll be happy within the top ten but I’m still aiming for the podium,” he said, then accepted it would be tough. “It’s highly unlikely now with only a few climbing chances left. My days for the GC were probably made here.”

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...sses-in-debut-race-of-2013.aspx#ixzz2h3EaaaYo


and after the TTT:

"Now I'll just be trying to survive until the mountain stages. I think I've got good form. Maybe about the same as last year. I hope so."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/horner-back-in-action-at-tirreno-adriatico


Until 2014 if Horner gets a contract.

 

[Race Radio]

Until Froome releases his bio like Horner has we can only question Froome.

You can certainly question if Froome is doping or not, that is a logical quesition. But lets not pretend he would out climb Chris when both are going full gas, not

“I’ll be happy within the top ten

We don't know who is doping more but we know who is faster when on form, not "Happy with the top 10" form but full gas

Froome told VeloNews. “We knew today was going to be the decisive day. Everyone was going as hard as they could there. I’ve got no regrets. I went simply as hard as I could.”

Froome's "Hard as he could" equals 1:30 back from Horner

 

[the sceptic]

Obviously the 2011 version of Froome babysitting Wiggins is exactly the same Froome as in 2013. Nothing to see here.

 

[red_flanders]

You can certainly question if Froome is doping or not, that is a logical quesition. But lets not pretend he would out climb Chris when both are going full gas, not



We don't know who is doping more but we know who is faster when on form, not "Happy with the top 10" form but full gas



Froome's "Hard as he could" equals 1:30 back from Horner

I guess different race tactics on different day arguments go out the window when you have a result that you think supports your case.

I hope we see who is faster this coming season. I hope Horner secures a ride, an invite, and they go head to head in the Tour and Horner is close enough on GC that Froome has to respond.

That will be revealing on many levels.

 

[Race Radio]

I guess different race tactics on different day arguments go out the window when you have a result that you think supports your case.

True, pretending that they were on the same level when Horner's knee was injured is a bit silly. Horner soft pedaled several times on the Angrilu, enough for Valverde to catch back on. Wonder how much he would have put on Froome's time if he went full gas? 2 minutes?

Anyone have a legit source for Froome hitting 6.25 w/kg for 43 minutes? Horner did it in the 3rd week of a GT. Haven't seen any indication of Froome doing this

 

[EnacheV]

Froome beat Horner in a 1 to 1 match-up.

If we think Horner is doping then one can only assume Frome is as well.

Logic perfection at work.

Can i post facepalm ASCII's ?

 

[red_flanders]

True, pretending that they were on the same level when Horner's knee was injured is a bit silly. Horner soft pedaled several times on the Angrilu, enough for Valverde to catch back on. Wonder how much he would have put on Froome's time if he went full gas, 2 minutes?

http://espn.go.com/blog/endurance/post/_/id/1550/horner-takes-confidence-into-vuelta

“That’s what made the whole week so fun, was just being back on my bike. I started training, and the knee went bad. I started training and the knee went bad. I started training and the knee went bad. And then the surgery, started training, and finally the knee was good. It’s really nice to finally start training and feel the fitness come good,” he said.

Horner says his knee was good. But you knew that.

Like I said above, I hope we get to see them battle at least once in the Tour when it matters to Froome. I hope they're both on top form. Then we'll see.

If those conditions line up I'd love to make a friendly (or real) wager about the result.

 

[thehog]

http://espn.go.com/blog/endurance/post/_/id/1550/horner-takes-confidence-into-vuelta

Horner says his knee was good. But you knew that.

Like I said above, I hope we get to see them battle at least once in the Tour when it matters to Froome. I hope they're both on top form. Then we'll see.

If those conditions line up I'd love to make a friendly (or real) wager about the result.

Horner's knee was fine. He traced it back to the final stage where it was first injured not Prati di Tivo.

Same day, same conditions, same race, same mountain.

Froome beat Horner.

Convincingly.

Both doping in my humble opinion.

1 on 1 Froome won.

Not much else to say.

Nevertheless Horner has one up on Froome by releasing his passport. That was a bold move and advantage Horner.

Horner traces the problem back to the final road stage of Tirreno Adriatico, a gruelling day which saw the riders tackle the wall-like Muro di Sant'Elpidio climb in wet, cold conditions. He believes a combination of those weather conditions plus the nature of the climb is what aggravated his leg

“I don’t think it was equipment related at all, but completely down to that stage. I was with Nibali when he was attacking on the last time up that very steep climb. At that point in time it had been raining, it had been cold, it was coming to the end of a tough six hour race. The climb is so steep that I had to adjust my position dramatically on the bike, so that the back tyre didn’t spin…you have to keep weight on the back tyre. Also because the gearing was so large, I had to stand up because you are pushing twenty rpms up this climb.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...g-form-for-Vuelta-a-Espana.aspx#ixzz2gyO2Pcaw

 

[Race Radio]

Horner says his knee was good. But you knew that.

I suggest you read the thread. Horner's knee was injured at Tirreno-Adriatico where he said he would be happy with a top 10. Some would like to pretend his performance at TA there is a good comparison, but most can see that it isn't. Iliotibial band syndrome develops over time. It does not just suddenly appear when you ride a steep climb in the cold.

A better measurement would be when both riders were going full gas. Angrilu is a good example, Horner's time is 1:30 faster. Another good example is 6.25 w/kg for 43 minutes. I have never seen a reliable example of Froome doing anything like that

 

[the sceptic]

I suggest you read the thread. Horner's knee was injured at Tirreno-Adriatico where he said he would be happy with a top 10. Some would like to pretend his performance at TA there is a good comparison, but most can see that it isn't. Iliotibial band syndrome develops over time. It does not just suddenly appear when you ride a steep climb in the cold.

A better measurement would be when both riders were going full gas. Angrilu is a good example, Horner's time is 1:30 faster. Another good example is 6.25 w/kg for 43 minutes. I have never seen a reliable example of Froome doing anything like that

So Froome never went full gas on any climb after 2011, where he went full gas while trying not to drop Wiggins.

 

[Race Radio]

So Froome never went full gas on any climb after 2011, where he went full gas while trying not to drop Wiggins.

So he was lying when Froome said after the Angrilu

I’ve got no regrets. I went simply as hard as I could

"Hard as I could" equals 1:30 slower then Horner

Given we do not have an example of both of them racing on form on the same day in the same race the best example is to look at W/kg or comparable climbs. In both cases Horner beats Froome when they are on top form.

 

[thehog]

Apparently Horner is lying when he said he did his injury on the last stage But not Froome.

“I don’t think it was equipment related at all, but completely down to that stage. I was with Nibali when he was attacking on the last time up that very steep climb. At that point in time it had been raining, it had been cold, it was coming to the end of a tough six hour race. The climb is so steep that I had to adjust my position dramatically on the bike, so that the back tyre didn’t spin…you have to keep weight on the back tyre

 

[Netserk]

So he was lying when Froome said after the Angrilu



"Hard as I could" equals 1:30 slower then Horner

Given we do not have an example of both of them racing on form on the same day in the same race the best example is to look at W/kg or comparable climbs. In both cases Horner beats Froome when they are on top form.

I also think Contador went as hard as he could on Ax-3 this year, but that doesn't make it a good comparison.

 

[the sceptic]

So he was lying when Froome said after the Angrilu



"Hard as I could" equals 1:30 slower then Horner

Given we do not have an example of both of them racing on form on the same day in the same race the best example is to look at W/kg or comparable climbs. In both cases Horner beats Froome when they are on top form.

Do you expect him to say he didnt go full gas the entire climb because he had to wait for Wiggins?

Anyway, there are too many variables when comparing climbing times from different years. How was the wind in 2011?

 

[Race Radio]

I also think Contador went as hard as he could on Ax-3 this year, but that doesn't make it a good comparison.

? Contador, I assume you mean Froome. It would be good to see Froome's SRM file from that day. Vetoo gives him 6.5 w/kg for 21:41. Horner was at 6.85-6.95 w/kg for almost 17 minutes and 6.25 for 43.

Horner wins

 

[thehog]

With this weight lowered, yes. Which hasn't been lowered by Vetoo.

Speaking of weight.

Froome.

I wonder what his real weight is

 

[Race Radio]

Do you expect him to say he didnt go full gas the entire climb because he had to wait for Wiggins?

Anyway, there are too many variables when comparing climbing times from different years. How was the wind in 2011?

Yes. He did not have to wait long, about as long as Horner waited for Valverde.

Not much wind on the Angrilu. Almost none for Horner, lots of fog though.

 

[thehog]

Apparently Horner is lying when he said he did his injury on the last stage But not Froome.

Horner says he was 1-2% off his best form and post TA his knee was still good.

He was looking forward to a big season.

2014 will tell us more.

But Prati di Tivo is the best Froome v Horner we have to go on.

Horner: “My goal was to keep sixth place and possibly move up to fifth. It would have been good to get top five and the points with it. But overall I am very happy with this week. I made a few mistakes yesterday that if I were younger, I would beat myself up more over them, but now I just take the lessons. This was my first race of the season so I’m very pleased with the way the legs came around. To be in the top ten with this quality field is very special. Now I will race Catalunya and the Basque Country. I’ll be looking for my last little bit of form, that extra 1-2% and that will make the difference for me. Those races are more my style. The steep, longer climbs are for me so I’ll hope to be better in those races.”

http://www.radioshackleopardtrek.com/news/horner-takes-sixth-tirreno-adriatico

 

[Race Radio]

With this weight lowered, yes. Which hasn't been lowered by Vetoo.

Yes it has. He has multiple SRM files and confirm weights from other riders, this makes it easier to calculate Horner's weight. He revised his estimations last month. ~380 W / 61 kg = 6.25 W/kg"

Froome should provide his SRM files, Passport files, ADUK testing results and verified weight

Chris should stop lying about his weight and release his USADA results, not just biopassport results

 

[red_flanders]

I suggest you read the thread. Horner's knee was injured at Tirreno-Adriatico where he said he would be happy with a top 10. Some would like to pretend his performance at TA there is a good comparison, but most can see that it isn't. Iliotibial band syndrome develops over time. It does not just suddenly appear when you ride a steep climb in the cold.

A better measurement would be when both riders were going full gas. Angrilu is a good example, Horner's time is 1:30 faster. Another good example is 6.25 w/kg for 43 minutes. I have never seen a reliable example of Froome doing anything like that

I guess there was miscommunication then. You referenced the Angrilu in the sentence after your statement about Horner's knee. Your response was a response to a post of mine talking about comparing times in the Vuelta when they did not battle head to head. I would offer that if you want to be understood, you not reference comments about TA when responding to comments about the Vuelta, then reference the Vuelta again in the next sentence.

I agree comparing riders when one isn't on top form, or is well behind, or has different race goals isn't particularly helpful. It's all silly and subjective.

It's worth noting that your response focused on your perception of my reading skills and ignored the relevant point that you seem to invoke race tactics (and I'll add in meteorology) when the result doesn't suit your argument but you're a straight the-times-tell-the-whole-story guy when those times suit your view. Whatever your view is, I can't actually tell.

Like I said, I look forward to both of them with teams, as leaders, un-injured, and within 2 mins of one another when hitting the mountains of the Tour. Hope it happens. My offer stands.

A couple of straight questions:

• Do you think Horner won the Vuelta clean?
• Do you think Froome won the Tour clean?
• Do you think Horner would beat Froome in a head-to-head climbing battle if the above conditions were in play?

I would love to hear a 'yes', 'no' or 'I don't know'.

 

[thehog]

Yes it has. He has multiple SRM files and confirm weights from other riders, this makes it easier to calculate Horner's weight. He revised his estimations last month. ~380 W / 61 kg = 6.25 W/kg"

Not saying Horner isn't doping. But this is a stretch.

Froome will need to open up his bio before next years Tour.

I think its the right thing to do. The pressure was immense this year.

Time will tell.

Anyway I think Prati di Tivo is our best and only indication so far of C v C.

 

[Race Radio]

But Prati di Tivo is the best Froome v Horner we have to go on.

Nah, I could pull some climb for Froome when he was on Barloworld when he is smoked by Horner......but I know that is as meaningless as comparing a single stage where one rider was not on top form and the other was not.