The Chris Squared Thread

[thehog]

The entire peloton including sprinters was beating Froome when he was on Barloworld

 

[Race Radio]

A couple of straight questions:

• Do you think Horner won the Vuelta clean?
• Do you think Froome won the Tour clean?
• Do you think Horner would beat Froome in a head-to-head climbing battle if the above conditions were in play?

I would love to hear a 'yes', 'no' or 'I don't know'.

No, I don't think either were clean.....but that has nothing to do with why I think Horner on top form would beat Froome. It is purely numbers. Horner's performance on the Angrilu is better then any performance we have seen for several years.

 

[del1962]

Not saying Horner isn't doping. But this is a stretch.

Froome will need to open up his bio before next years Tour.

I think its the right thing to do. The pressure was immense this year.

Time will tell.

Anyway I think Prati di Tivo is our best and only indication so far of C v C.

What about T-A Stage 6?

 

[red_flanders]

No, I don't think either were clean.....but that has nothing to do with why I think Horner on top form would beat Froome. It is purely numbers. Horner's performance on the Angrilu is better then any performance we have seen for several years.

Thank you. I also don't think either were clean for those races.

I disagree with you about who would win if they were both going for a win when both on top form. I really hope someone picks up Horner, makes him the leader for the Tour, and they hit the mountains without Horner way behind already because of a TT. I think that's the only way one would know. It seems unlikely for all that to fall in place, however.

I disagree about the potential head-to-head because Horner was clearly at his limit (in my view) on the Angrilu. The fact that Angliru was at the very end of the Vuelta and the last chance to grab time, the tiny time difference and competitiveness of the climbing dictated that he give it all he had. He also was put under pressure and was clearly struggling indicate to me that he gave everything. He also said he was at his limit and I believe he was being candid, but of course others could reject that if they were disposed to thinking otherwise.

I did not see Froome under similar pressure in the Tour and don't believe he pushed himself as hard as Horner was pushed on the Angliru. For me, it appeared he simply dispatched everyone and coasted in, repeatedly. I don't think he's astute enough to let a guy like Horner go if Horner is w/in 2 mins on a major Tour mountain showdown with a MTF.

I think Froome would crush him given his form in last year's Tour.

 

[Race Radio]

The entire peloton including sprinters was beating Froome when he was on Barloworld

Nibali and Kwiatkowski beat Horner on Prati di Tivo. Not surprising given he was not on top form and had a muscle imbalance that would lead to the need for knee surgery

 

[thehog]

What about T-A Stage 6?

What about it?

 

[Race Radio]

SRMs can guess the weight of another rider?

Not saying Horner isn't doping. But this is a stretch.

You should read what I wrote instead of trying to twist it into nonsense.

If you have Horner's SRM file, along with another rider's SRM file and confirmed weight it is pretty easy to figure out Horner's real weight. When you have several riders SRM files and weight it makes it even easier.

Chris was 61kg in the Vuelta, 62kg max.....not the 65kg they told the press.

 

[thehog]

Nibali and Kwiatkowski beat Horner on Prati di Tivo. Not surprising given he was not on top form

By 2 seconds.

Staggering

But Horner was injured. He just didn't know it

 

[del1962]

What about it?

Have a look at that stage again

 

[Netserk]

? Contador, I assume you mean Froome. It would be good to see Froome's SRM file from that day. Vetoo gives him 6.5 w/kg for 21:41. Horner was at 6.85-6.95 w/kg for almost 17 minutes and 6.25 for 43.

Horner wins

No I meant Contador.

I'm certain he went as hard as he could, but it really wasn't his best performance (far from it).

It was used to refute your point re: Froome going as hard as he could on Angliru.

 

[sniper]

So he was lying when Froome said after the Angrilu

why not?
could be.
cyclists lie all the time.
do you think froome is telling the truth when he says he doesn't dope?

and regardless, he just said something in a post-stage interview, which i don't think we should subsequently interpret as a physiological truism.

 

[Race Radio]

why not?
could be.
cyclists lie all the time.
do you think froome is telling the truth when he says he doesn't dope?

and regardless, he just said something in a post-stage interview, which i don't think we should subsequently interpret as a physiological truism.

Certainly possible he was lying, maybe he was actually softpedaling. .....but I don't see him chopping 1:30 off or adding 40 watts. I also don't see any examples of Froome doing a performance that equals Horner's 6.25 w/kg for 43 minutes.

I doubt we will ever know the answer as I doubt we will ever see both of them at top form going head to head.

 

[thrawn]

Certainly possible he was lying, maybe he was actually softpedaling. .....but I don't see him chopping 1:30 off or adding 40 watts. I also don't see any examples of Froome doing a performance that equals Horner's 6.25 w/kg for 43 minutes.

I doubt we will ever know the answer as I doubt we will ever see both of them at top form going head to head.

Has Froome been in a race position (Vuelta 2011 aside) that would require him to try and make such an effort? I think it's hard to make a comparison until he does need to make that type of effort.

 

[thehog]

Have a look at that stage again

I'm still not following.

What am I looking for?

 

[del1962]

I'm still not following.

What am I looking for?

Did you even watch the race?

 

[thehog]

Did you even watch the race?

Yes.

So what am I looking for?

 

[sniper]

Certainly possible he was lying, maybe he was actually softpedaling.

lol, probably not, but the point is we cant really know if he really went full gas either, nor if he was as strong then as he is now.

.....but I don't see him chopping 1:30 off or adding 40 watts. I also don't see any examples of Froome doing a performance that equals Horner's 6.25 w/kg for 43 minutes.

we've seen an example of froome accellerating uphill like we haven't seen anybody accellrate in a long time.
I haven't seen Horner come up with such an accelleration.
but admittedly, we're comparing uphill performances from bottom to top, and for all I know horner might indeed be quicker at present than froome. But I wouldn't ignore the gutfeeling (for what thats worth) many here seem to have that Froome would actually have been quicker than Horner, should they have faced off in a 2013 GT.

I doubt we will ever know the answer as I doubt we will ever see both of them at top form going head to head

Do you think Horner is blacklisted?

 

[del1962]

Yes.

So what am I looking for?

Horner dropping Froome on last climb, I thought you would be able to pick that up yourself

 

[Race Radio]

Has Froome been in a race position (Vuelta 2011 aside) that would require him to try and make such an effort? I think it's hard to make a comparison until he does need to make that type of effort.

Very valid point. I don't think we have seen Froome go full gas on a 40 minute climb.

However flawed Grappe's analysis is he does point out that Froome's performance was stable over the last 2 years. This is possible as it seems much of his improvement in the last 2 years came in TT's.

 

[thehog]

Horner dropping Froome on last climb, I thought you would be able to pick that up yourself

Last climb? It was a MTF?

It was an undulating stage with a circuit. It had a ridiculously steep hill (not mountain) they required to be climbed 5 times.

Riders had to walk the climb due to gearing and traction issues.

Horner was strong. Very strong.

Sagan the cyclocross man won the stage. He's not a climber but an all rounder type guy.

Horner and Froome finished thereabouts together.

Clearly Horner wasn't injured and was in good form by dropping Froome. But Froome caught back on.

You can't do w/p/kg on a stage like this as its not an MTF but yes it proves how strong Horner was. And Froome still smoked him on Stage 4.

Just proves that Prati Di Tivo is our best indication of C v C - which Froome won. Easily.

 

[Race Radio]

lol, probably not, but the point is we cant really know if he really went full gas either, nor if he was as strong then as he is now.


we've seen an example of froome accellerating uphill like we haven't seen anybody accellrate in a long time.
I haven't seen Horner come up with such an accelleration.
but admittedly, we're comparing uphill performances from bottom to top, and for all I know horner might indeed be quicker at present than froome. But I wouldn't ignore the gutfeeling (for what thats worth) many here seem to have that Froome would actually have been quicker than Horner, should they have faced off in a 2013 GT.


Do you think Horner is blacklisted?

Froome's attack are insane,

I don't think Horner is Blacklisted but teams see risk. Not just doping but age too. I can't image who would give him the 2 year contract he is looking for

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Very valid point. I don't think we have seen Froome go full gas on a 40 minute climb.

However flawed Grappe's analysis is he does point out that Froome's performance was stable over the last 2 years. This is possible as it seems much of his improvement in the last 2 years came in TT's.

We have seen Horners bio - data over the last five years, yet the Tour of Poland and that enormous Brixia Tour are the missing ones for Froome. Must be a coincidence.

Froome went gungho on Axe 3 Domaines, for five K. Enough to decide the Tour. Too bad there were no SRM files released for that stage from anyone important so we would know if he has the same weight as Horner. Wouldnt surprise me though. No treshholds for aicar.

I don't think Horner is Blacklisted but teams see risk. Not just doping but age too. I can't image who would give him the 2 year contract he is looking for

His WT points are useless, not enough teams for competition.

 

[thehog]

We have seen Horners bio - data over the last five years, yet the Tour of Poland and that enormous Brixia Tour are the missing ones for Froome. Must be a coincidence.

Froome went gungho on Axe 3 Domaines, for five K. Enough to decide the Tour. Too bad there were no SRM files released for that stage from anyone important so we would know if he has the same weight as Horner. Wouldnt surprise me though. No treshholds for aicar.His WT points are useless, not enough teams for competition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTwfbCL5NaE&sns=em

At the time I thought Froome went too early and would blow himself up.

Not to be.

If you watch the video but keep your eyes on the riders following Porte and Froome. All of them are going full gas and can barely keep up. Then Froome Sorta just rides away from them. Then Porte goes again.

Couldn't believe my eyes.

Also note Froome's weight. He is so skinny. Super skinny in fact. I'd say he'd be lighter than Horner.

But that's just a guess. But he's not the weight that's published. That's for sure.

 

[Race Radio]

We have seen Horners bio - data over the last five years, yet the Tour of Poland and that enormous Brixia Tour are the missing ones for Froome. Must be a coincidence.

Froome went gungho on Axe 3 Domaines, for five K. Enough to decide the Tour. Too bad there were no SRM files released for that stage from anyone important so we would know if he has the same weight as Horner. Wouldnt surprise me though. No treshholds for aicar.His WT points are useless, not enough teams for competition.

The best SRM file, and weight, to have would be Quintana on the Semnoz. Froome did not go full gas that day but still would be interesting to see as the estimates for Quintana are 6-6.3 w/kg

For me it is not a popularity contest, or about who doped more....but the numbers support the idea that Horner climbed faster on multiple climbs in the Vuelta then Froome ever has.

 

[thehog]

Obviously the 2011 version of Froome babysitting Wiggins is exactly the same Froome as in 2013. Nothing to see here.

Is there a video of this stage at Vuelta?

I'd like to refresh my memory and make my own mind up.