The Chris Squared Thread

[Race Radio]

Accusing one of causing conflict is in itself causing conflict.

You did bring it up, yes. Just a short while ago. Sorry.

And again context is always important.

As I continually state comparing 142km stage with a 5km straight-line climb at 500m altitude to a 232km stage with 22km climb at 2000m is fraught with data integrity issues.

However you have this odd theme appearing. Each and everyone time you get Horner racing Froome, Froome wins, not by a little but a lot.

Take 2012 Tour, Froome on equal climbs, one on one, beats Horner. Prati 2013 as you linked, 1 on 1 at 14km, Froome wins.

It happens each and every time. Froome beats Horner on climbs in the races they've raced together.

The question you're really asking is not really Horner v Froome but can you compare the Vuelta climbs to the Tour climbs?

Longer stages, longer climbs, higher altitudes to shorter stages, shorter climbs, lower altitudes.

I think if you asked yourself that question, you might surprise yourself with the answer.

If you want the question and thus the analysis to be Froome v Horner then you have to include all the data and when you do that you find Froome beats another every time it's same climb, same wind, same race, same weather etc.

Might be something in that

Cool story bro.

I have been clear since the start, The numbers support that Horner climbed faster at the Vuelta then Froome at his best.

You are welcome to keep banging on about TA but most can see that Horner was much faster at the Vuelta.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Accusing one of causing conflict is in itself causing conflict.

You did bring it up, yes. Just a short while ago. Sorry.

And again context is always important.

As I continually state comparing 142km stage with a 5km straight-line climb at 500m altitude to a 232km stage with 22km climb at 2000m is fraught with data integrity issues.

However you have this odd theme appearing. Each and everytime you get Horner racing Froome physically in he same race, Froome wins, not by a little but a lot.

Take 2012 Tour, Froome on equal climbs, one on one, beats Horner. Prati 2013 as you linked, 1 on 1 at 14km, Froome wins.

It happens each and every time. Froome beats Horner on climbs in the races they've raced together.

The question you're really asking is not 'Horner v Froome' but can you compare the Vuelta climbs to the Tour climbs?

Longer stages, longer climbs, higher altitudes to shorter stages, shorter climbs, lower altitudes.

I think if you asked yourself that question, you might surprise yourself with the answer.

If you want the question and thus the analysis to be Froome v Horner then you have to include all the data and when you do that you find Froome beats another every time it's same climb, same wind, same race, same weather etc.

What I see you doing is trying to drop Prati because you somehow know Honer's injury better than he did. Just like you know his weight despite what he knows himself

Might be something in that

I LOL'd a lot when I read this gem.
You can be really funny when you Ventoux

 

[thehog]

Cool story bro.

I have been clear since the start, The numbers support that Horner climbed faster at the Vuelta then Froome at his best.

You are welcome to keep banging on about TA but most can see that Horner was much faster at the Vuelta.

It's not a story but fact and I'm not a '"bro" as you term it.

In the 2012 Tour Froome beat a very healthy and non-injured Horner. And that's not TA. Same climbs, same length stages etc.

The "numbers" you speak about are an estimation or analysis. No one can truly say when you compare two races in two different countries of varying distances, climbing heights etc. that it's "certainty".

If your position is that the numbers are a perfect representation of who would have won on what day even though riders weren't even in he same country, climate or race then I believe you've discovered the holy grail or have been certified mad

The "story" as you state is changing Honer's weight, leaving Froome's as published or trying to compare a 5km or 8km climb after 100km of riding to 22km of climbing after a 220km stage..... meaning you can only build a story from this varying, often unknown data, it's not fact or a "certainty" whereby an actual race with two competitors is a "certainty" - it actually happened and.....

Froome wins, everytime.

 

[Netserk]

Do I think Horner rode faster uphill in the Vuelta than Froome in the Tour? Yes.
Do I think Horner would be able to ride as fast in the Tour as he did in the Vuelta? No.
If Horner had targeted the Tour, do I then think he'd outclimb Froome on the MTFs? Don't know. I don't think so on the first two.

 

[Race Radio]

It's not a story but fact and I'm not a '"bro" as you term it.

In the 2012 Tour Froome beat a very healthy and non-injured Horner. And that's not TA. Same climbs, same length stages etc.

The "numbers" you speak about are an estimation or analysis. No one can truly say when you compare two races in two different countries of varying distances, climbing heights etc. that it's "certainty".

If your position is that the numbers are a perfect representation of who would have won on what day even though riders weren't even in he same country, climate or race then I believe you've discovered the holy grail or have been certified mad

The "story" as you state is changing Honer's weight, leaving Froome's as published or trying to compare a 5km or 8km climb after 100km of riding to 22km of climbing after a 220km stage..... meaning you can only build a story from this varying, often unknown data, it's not fact or a "certainty" whereby an actual race with two competitors is a "certainty" - it actually happened and.....

Froome wins, everytime.

Funny stuff.

We get it. You posted a bunch of nonsense and now want to flood the forum with more.

Horner at his peak climbs faster then Froome at his peak. You can pretend he doesn't, invent strawmen, but that does not change the facts.

 

[Race Radio]

Do I think Horner rode faster uphill in the Vuelta than Froome in the Tour? Yes.
Do I think Horner would be able to ride as fast in the Tour as he did in the Vuelta? No.
If Horner had targeted the Tour, do I then think he'd outclimb Froome on the MTFs? Don't know. I don't think so on the first two.

This is a very valid point.

Horner was climbing faster at the Vuelta then Froome at the Tour.....but the Vuelta is not the Tour. The Tour is full gas, all day, every day. The Vuelta is mas tranquilo.

 

[Netserk]

This is a very valid point.

Horner was climbing faster at the Vuelta then Froome at the Tour.....but the Vuelta is not the Tour. The Tour is full gas, all day, every day. The Vuelta is mas tranquilo.

I'm more interested in your thoughts regarding the third question

 

[thehog]

Funny stuff.

We get it. You posted a bunch of nonsense and now want to flood the forum with more.

Horner at his peak climbs faster then Froome at his peak. You can pretend he doesn't, invent strawmen, but that does not change the facts.

Uh huh.

When I look at the thread just today only you've made or messed up the following:

x Horner's weight.
x Modified one of Homer's statements to give it an entirely different meaning, a meaning that fitted your point of view.
x That rain caused his injury and not that he had to adjust his position.
x That he was injured on Prati despite riding faster than the year before.
x He didn't know his was injured despite what his Doctor and himself has released.
x That no one else was injured on the same stage - without acknowledging half the field pulled out at the 50km mark.
x Didn't realise the Sant Elpido was a circuit climbed multiple times and not once.
x Was out for 6 months.

There's probably more but that is funny stuff.


I think when it comes to nonsense the numbers speak for themselves! you beat me, Froome and Horner!

And judging by today I'm not sure anyone could trust your numbers. Sorry.

 

[red_flanders]

I'm more interested in your thoughts regarding the third question

That's all anyone is interested in. Lack of ability to recognize that is why this discussion is circling the drain.

Who cares if Horner may or may not have climbed faster than Froome on certain climbs in certain races. That does not answer "who is faster" or "who would win if they went head to head". That's been answered. Froome.

The only question is, "If they went at it during the Tour (assuming both targeting the Tour), who would win?".

 

[Race Radio]

I'm more interested in your thoughts regarding the third question

I would give A3D, Semnoz and Alp d'huez to Horner. Ventoux would be close. I doubt Horner would have burned his matches early like Quintana. As he showed on Angrilu he can shut down attacks by riding hard tempo.......But attacks like Froome one Ventoux? Doubt it. Valverde was faster the Vuelta then the Tour but Froome's attacks an Ventoux were nutty

 

[Race Radio]

That's all anyone is interested in. Lack of ability to recognize that is why this discussion is circling the drain.

Who cares if Horner may or may not have climbed faster than Froome on certain climbs in certain races. That does not answer "who is faster" or "who would win if they went head to head". That's been answered. Froome.

The only question is, "If they went at it during the Tour (assuming both targeting the Tour), who would win?".

I have answered this many times. Not sure why others keep trying to steer the discussion to a stage at TA.

 

[Race Radio]

Uh huh.

When I look at the thread just today only you've made or messed up the following:

x Horner's weight.
x Modified one of Homer's statements to give it an entirely different meaning, a meaning that fitted your point of view.
x That rain caused his injury and not that he had to adjust his position.
x That he was injured on Prati despite riding faster than the year before.
x He didn't know his was injured despite what his Doctor and himself has released.
x That no one else was injured on the same stage - without acknowledging half the field pulled out at the 50km mark.
x Didn't realise the Sant Elpido was a circuit climbed multiple times and not once.
x Was out for 6 months.

There's probably more but that is funny stuff.


I think when it comes to nonsense the numbers speak for themselves! you beat me, Froome and Horner!

And judging by today I'm not sure anyone could trust your numbers. Sorry.

Now you need to invent stuff?

You are welcome to pretend that Horner's statement was different, but we both know it wasn't. The fact is, as I made clear in multiple links I gave, positioning over time is what causes the knee issue over time. It took Chris a while to figure this out but once he did the experts fixed it.

You can pretend I invented Horner's weight....but we both know I was right. Horner even confirmed it

feel free to continue with the babble about Tirreno Adriatico, maybe you can start a thread about it? My point has always been the same, when they are at their peak who climbs faster? The experts say Horner

 

[thehog]

What is Horner's weight?

What is Froome's weight?

 

[red_flanders]

I have answered this many times. Not sure why others keep trying to steer the discussion to a stage at TA.

There is no "answer" to this until they do it. There are opinions. That's why they have the race. If you could answer it on paper there would be exactly zero reason to watch a race.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It would be pretending to pretend that his knee issue happen due to one rainy climb. Even Chris said it was due to an alignment issue. The pain appears in connective tissue because your body has been overcompensating over time.


http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/05/news/horner-to-miss-tour-of-california-with-knee-pain_285406

I have an alignment problem

Wow. Curious quoting mechanism there.

“It is possible I have an alignment problem,” Horner said in a press release.
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...nia-with-knee-pain_285406#KPGPBg8CZCYDGMLE.99

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

The only question is, "If they went at it during the Tour (assuming both targeting the Tour), who would win?".

It depends. Horner on one leg and 15 race days: No doubt Horner wins.
Horner on a full europe season with being reachable for OOC tests: Froome wins...

 

[Race Radio]

Wow. Curious quoting mechanism there.

Agreed, I don't know who some chose to ignore the other links I gave that show that it is a key cause for iliotibial band friction syndrome. Some would rather cry about semantics and ignore facts. Gotta wonder why some chose to ignore those links.....it is almost like they have some agenda.

 

[Race Radio]

It depends. Horner on one leg and 15 race days: No doubt Horner wins.
Horner on a full europe season with being reachable for OOC tests: Froome wins...

Good point......but Horner was the most tested American Athlete by USADA last year. They are clearly targeting him

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Didn´t really follow it until he came to win the Vuelta. All I witnessed was his missed OOC test after the Vuelta. And a perfect PR machine to shifting blame to the testers...

Anyway, I like the "most tested rider" quote.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Agreed, I don't know who some chose to ignore the other links I gave that show that it is a key cause for iliotibial band friction syndrome. Some would rather cry about semantics and ignore facts. Gotta wonder why some chose to ignore those links.....it is almost like they have some agenda.

Yes, I do wonder what agenda misrepresenting a direct quote from a rider should be considered supporting.

 

[red_flanders]

If they ever do go head-to-head in a race, I'd be happy to bet anyone on who wins. I'll reserve judgement on that until that day comes and I see what form folks are on.

Right now it would appear that Froome was super strong and his fitness has curiously backed off a tad. Given his form early last year I'd have bet on him against anyone (and did actually). He wasn't even tested, it wasn't even close.

After Oman you could have won money from me betting against Froome. After this week it's tougher to tell.

What I do know for damn sure is that taking power readings from a race where only one person was present is mildly interesting, but means little as applies to the question of who would win head-to-head.

 

[thehog]

You are welcome to pretend that Horner's statement was different, but we both know it wasn't. The fact is, as I made clear in multiple links I gave, positioning over time is what causes the knee issue over time. It took Chris a while to figure this out but once he did the experts fixed it.

You can pretend I invented Horner's weight....

Here's the problem.

Horner's statement was:

“It is possible I have an alignment problem,” Horner said in a press release. “We will examine all possibilities. I want to race again.

You wrote:

I have an alignment problem,

as part of a post that stated:

It would be pretending to pretend that his knee issue happen due to one rainy climb. Even Chris said it was due to an alignment issue. The pain appears in connective tissue because your body has been overcompensating over time.

Which is a clear misrepresentation of what he said. He also clearly stated with his doctor in a press release it was the one stage and due to his adjustment on the bike to stop his tyre from sliding out. And that he wanted to seek several assessments to find the one that gets him back racing as soon as possible.

You rest of your post and view on what occurred you just filled in based on zero knowledge of the person actually involved.

For example you write as if you know him and he told you his by the fact you say "Chris then.." and "It took Chris a while.." but you don't know him or what he did with his Doctors or otherwise.

You actually dispute what Horner is saying by telling us what really happened and then modify a statement he made to fit your PoV!

Two red flags there. Change the statement and talking as if it's firsthand information. Your speculating. The rest are going off what was released by way of fact.

So when you ask me to trust your numbers, you can see why I get so edgy and nervous. I'm not confident with the level set for Horner or Froome's weight for the analysis and judging by this incident I'm not sure I'd be able to know if there's hasn't been a change in the data.

So what is Honer's weight and Froome's weight for the numbers? That would make an excellent start

 

[Race Radio]

Yes, I do wonder what agenda misrepresenting a direct quote from a rider should be considered supporting.

Hardly misrepresented. As I showed with multiple links alignment over time is the key cause of iliotibial band friction syndrome in cyclist. Even Hog agrees that it was an alignment issue....but he thinks it happened when he shifted his position for a few minutes and not over months of riding. You chose which is more believable.

Semantic distraction aside who do you think iss the faster climber, Froome at the Tour or Horner at the Vuelta?

La Gazzetta dello Sport says Horner

his VAM broke all records at 2,034. According to the Italian daily, he would have averaged 437 watts or around 6.83 watts/kg

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/horner-pushes-the-power-numbers-at-the-vuelta_302720

 

[kingjr]

There is no "answer" to this until they do it. There are opinions. That's why they have the race. If you could answer it on paper there would be exactly zero reason to watch a race.

You know the answer to whether Froome is doping though, don't you?

 

[Race Radio]

I get so edgy and nervous.

I am sorry you are edge and nervous. Maybe you are feeling guilty for inventing all this nonsense? Have a beer. Relax.

You need to get your stories straight. You claim he has a knee issue because he shifted his weight for a few minutes....are you now saying he did not have an issue with his alignment?

Not my numbers. If you read through this thread you will find many links and sources.....but you chose to ignore them and focus on Tirreno Adriatico