The Chris Squared Thread

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Quick question to ease my searching

In whose testimony did "Rider 15" appear ?

Leipies:
http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Leipheimer,+Levi,+Affidavit.pdf

74 In 2008 RIDER 15 told me he was using EPO during his recovery from an injury in 2005 before the Tour of Switserland.

Not sure how Chris Horner should fit in there, was he teammate at Discovery with LA?

Probably was this fellow:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hammond-on-comeback-trail

What the importance of this rider 15 was is still unclear to me.

 

[hrotha]

Leipies:
http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Leipheimer,+Levi,+Affidavit.pdf


Not sure how Chris Horner should fit in there, was he teammate at Discovery with LA?

Probably was this fellow:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hammond-on-comeback-trail

What the importance of this rider 15 was is still unclear to me.

His not being in Discovery is a moot point, since the conversation didn't happen until 2008, when he was in Astana. The Tour de Suisse was irrelevant to Hammond (why would he bring it up at all? He was a classics guy), while Horner won a stage and was 5th overall, and "Roger Hammond" doesn't fit in the redacted space, whereas "Chris Horner" does.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Looks like a Yahtzee game has broken out here in the Clinic.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

His not being in Discovery is a moot point, since the conversation didn't happen until 2008, when he was in Astana. The Tour de Suisse was irrelevant to Hammond (why would he bring it up at all? He was a classics guy), while Horner won a stage and was 5th overall, and "Roger Hammond" doesn't fit in the redacted space, whereas "Chris Horner" does.

You might have a point, but, there is always a but , Chris Horner is in the affadavit of Christian Vande Valde and Saint Jonathan of Vaughters, named as Christopher Horner. There is a clear pattern in that report where names are specifically used in full. That would make him not fit in the redacted spaces too. Or is USADA just trolling the clinic

And again, the why this rider fifteen is in the USADA report is a mystery to me, also the 2008 doesnt make sense because the LA wasnt even in the peloton back then.

Re Hammond, he had a 'good' autumn season. And a sudden rise in performance in 2003/2004/2005. To say the least.

But, lets speculate a bit more:
http://www.mbaction.com/Main/News/CADEL-EVANS-BREAKS-COLLARBONE-1770.aspx

Another candidate for rider 15
[when you turn Cadel into Cadeleke it might fit, Cadeleke is how Cadel was named by the Belgian cycling reporters]
[PS, noted the motorpacing up mountains? marginal gains are so new]

Moose will notice I am going for Carre.

 

[neineinei]

And again, the why this rider fifteen is in the USADA report is a mystery to me, also the 2008 doesnt make sense because the LA wasnt even in the peloton back then.

Rider 15 is in the report because he told Leipheimer he'd been using EPO. Just like Rasmussen is there because he'd been discussing his doping with Levi and Leinders is there because he'd been assisting Levi in his doping. USADA are interested in all doping. Not just Armstrong & co, even though Lance says so.

What about this guy: http://www.cyclingarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=4340 Rode Tour de Suisse 2005 and was at Astana in 2008.

 

[roundabout]

Looking at the races that "that guy" completed in the spring of 2005, I doubt that he had time to get injured

 

[Netserk]

Looking at the races that "that guy" completed in the spring of 2005, I doubt that he had time to get injured

Time or not, he was injured in the first part of 2005.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2005...lk-an-injured-horner-readies-for-georgia_7859

For me, it wasn’t long before I ended up in bed watching Tirreno on TV. I went down in stage 2 and injured my left leg. I started the next day, but after the race I needed two guys to carry me to my hotel room.

Sometimes you need to know when not to race, and this was one of those times. The x-rays the next day showed negative for any breaks or fractures at the time of the accident, but a month later though the leg was still hurting badly, so I came back to the States and went for a MRI, which showed a fracture in the hip area.

Since that crash, my training and racing have all been greatly affected. After a crash it’s always difficult to decide the best way to deal with the injury. Should you continue racing and slow the recovery? Or stop training and racing in order to recover quickly, knowing you’ll lose the form you’ve gained?

This is a difficult time for anyone who is an athlete. Your own wish to perform well and the pressure from your team to ride all start to have an effect on you. But at this point, one has to put themselves before the team, remembering that the ideal is to get better faster, which will in turn benefit the team the most.

I raced at Setmana Catalana before coming home, but was basically pedaling with one leg, and was lucky to pull out a top-20 finish. My next big race is the Tour de Georgia, where it looks like an American showdown is building up.

 

[proffate]

You might have a point, but, there is always a but , Chris Horner is in the affadavit of Christian Vande Valde and Saint Jonathan of Vaughters, named as Christopher Horner. There is a clear pattern in that report where names are specifically used in full. That would make him not fit in the redacted spaces too. Or is USADA just trolling the clinic

not true, Tony Cruz is in there as Tony Cruz, not Antonio

 

[roundabout]

Time or not, he was injured in the first part of 2005.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2005...lk-an-injured-horner-readies-for-georgia_7859

I mean Rast. Rode pretty much a full schedule up the TdS

 

[sublimit]

The only salient point is that Horner out-Froomed Froome and made the Skydiots and their new era, it's different this time, weight loss, altitude training, and late bloomer idiocy look even more ridiculous. If that type of hucksterism can work for a no-talent no skills nobody like Froome then it can surely work for a rider of Horner's class. Looks like Pudro needs to switch his avatar.

Forza Horner! He is tearing down the big lie one mountain top finish at a time.

Shouln't it be "Yeeehaaaw Horner!" "Go USA!"

I must say - I cant fault your patriotism apart from that.

 

[Netserk]

I mean Rast. Rode pretty much a full schedule up the TdS

Über reading fail by me

I thought 'that guy' was Horner.

 

[sniper]

rider 15

So Gregory Rast is an option:
- name fits in the redacted part
- 2008 Astana
- 2005 TdS
the following speaks in favor of Horner:
- we know he was injured in 2005
- we know he was fairly decent buddies with Leipheimer
OTOH, RR's been told it wasn't Horner, and RR's sources are usually trustworthy.
And if it was Horner, wouldn't USADA have done something with that info?

 

[hrotha]

Rast doesn't fit the injured part, which is a deal-breaker. The Horner theory is a much better fit with what we know - as RR himself admits.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Rast doesn't fit the injured part, which is a deal-breaker. The Horner theory is a much better fit with what we know - as RR himself admits.

Perhaps. Somehow I don't see Travis sitting still while Horner is named to the Olympic team. The evidence is weak, but still.... TT is like a dog on a piece of meat.

As usual, I reserve the right to be wrong about it.

 

[the sceptic]

I found those ardent attackers of Froome like Moose defending Horner the most hilarious, even using the 'poor US boy forced to dope by the dirty Euros' excuse pedaled by Lance.

If Horner is there in the third week I'll raise my eyebrows. Until then I'm expecting him to fade. I don't know enough about the man to judge, beyond his age.

Whats the verdict? Is Badzilla the only clean one or are they both clean still?

 

[sniper]

I think this might be the right time and right thread to shed some new light on gene doping.
This article is dated (august 2012), but most likely not outdated:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/07/oly-dop-gene-day-idUSL6E8J6DXC20120807

Gene doping - in which DNA is introduced into the body using an inactivated virus or by other means - could alter a person's genetic make-up and improve athletic performance by increasing muscle growth, blood production, endurance, oxygen dispersal or pain perception.

(I've also bolded "virus" because of the badzilla angle; might be an anticipated cover story for when rumors about gene doping start to surface)

 

[sniper]

I think this might be the right time and right thread to shed some new light on gene doping.
This article is dated (august 2012), but most likely not outdated:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/07/oly-dop-gene-day-idUSL6E8J6DXC20120807



(I've also bolded "virus" because of the badzilla angle; might be an anticipated cover story for when rumors about gene doping start to surface)

If there is anybody in current cycling in the know about gene doping, i'd say it's kerrison.
I found this article, with a most interesting comment below:

The German coach Thomas Springsteen was discovered 2 years ago trying to obtain a gene delivery treatment that turns on the body's erythropoietin production, to be used by cheats in endurance sports. Doping without the injections! - Actually altering the individual human’s DNA index, is at the forefront of bioresearch. Repoxygen, was said to be the gene therapy material being developed by a British company that Springsteen was after. The essence of gene therapy is not the EPO hormone itself, but augmenting the ‘gene’ that produces it, to make more. It's been possible to put a gene into a virus, a disabled virus that acts as a kind of a moving van to put that gene into cells- therefore multiplying the effect. That material was intended to treat people with chronic kidney disease and with cancers, for people who are unable to make good amounts of red blood cells themselves. Rumors have been floating around for years since research scientists started working on it. Gene therapy even raised it’s mysterious head back at the 2000 Olympics, when the US swim team head coach blindly accused the Australian government and Swimming Australia of using genetic manipulation and HGH on Ian Thorpe as a child . Hype or reality- we don't know currently if Gene augmentation has actually evolved to the point where it is being abused by any real athletes, but it's quite clear that the world of sport is very much aware of what's going on in gene therapy. BikePure will keep you up to date.

 

[sniper]

The German doc "Thomas Springsteen" (from Magdeburg), who got caught with genetic doping (see the quoted part in my previous post), in principle a rather unknown guy afaik, also emerges in an interesting context in this word document on Operación Puerto:

http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j...=0GfaNrGP54gh6QgOoXeBPg&bvm=bv.52164340,d.d2k

i have no time to dig deeper, but it should be relatively easy to find all sorts of links between gene doping and cycling.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Whats the verdict? Is Badzilla the only clean one or are they both clean still?

I mainly post on a fixed gear forum where we discuss racing a lot, and generally doping is talk is discouraged in the race threads but it's been open season on Horner. No-one finds his performances believable. Nor me if I'm honest,and watching him means I empathise a lot with a lot of people here and their incredulous reaction to Froome.

It simply isn't credible, to be smashing up a field of that quality at that age. The worst thing is knowing there is no way of knowing, no testing regime we can believe in, no governing body we can rely on.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Whats the verdict? Is Badzilla the only clean one or are they both clean still?

I think that is obvious. His explanation was clear and simple.
Horner is still there in week 3, so he lost all hope. Something i did in week 1.
He counts Horner as a big time doper now, while being unsure about Froome...

P.S.: Didn´t read to the point where Jimmy answered already. My fault...

 

[Cycle Chic]

Source

If there is anybody in current cycling in the know about gene doping, i'd say it's kerrison.
I found this article, with a most interesting comment below:

In the Bike Pure article you link - which incidentally has been discussed before...the section you quote about Ian Thorpe being a genetic experiment is actually from the COMMENTS below the article.

So any random could have made that up...sounds far fetched ..but hey - Hitler was doin it and we have Steffi and Boris to confirm that....oh and Jensie of course

 

[Race Radio]

The German doc "Thomas Springsteen" (from Magdeburg), who got caught with genetic doping

i have no time to dig deeper, but it should be relatively easy to find all sorts of links between gene doping and cycling.

No he wasn't. They never found anything more then an email from Springsteen saying how hard it was to find Repoxygen. There is no evidence he, or anyone else, ever obtained it and the raid on his houses and offices did not turn it up.

Regardless Repoxygen would have limited benefit as it has a automatic shut off that stops the body's production of RBC once Hct hit a normal level. It is not going to enable a rider to hit 65% with no detection.

While it is certainly possible there is some gene doping, perhaps more focused oround weight then Hct, but most the stories I have read about gene doping in cycling involve some dupe buying saline labeled as gene doping.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

It simply isn't credible, to be smashing up a field of that quality at that age. The worst thing is knowing there is no way of knowing, no testing regime we can believe in, no governing body we can rely on.

No, s**t, Sherlock. Nobody thinks Horner's credible. Nobody. What's funny is that his performance is like a giant slap in Sky's face. It's like Horner took a giant p!ss on the entire Sky fandom and they all think it's raining beer.

....although, frankly, I can see how one would make that mistake if we're talking about say Budweiser.

 

[Scott SoCal]

No, s**t, Sherlock. Nobody thinks Horner's credible. Nobody. What's funny is that his performance is like a giant slap in Sky's face. It's like Horner took a giant p!ss on the entire Sky fandom and they all think it's raining beer.

....although, frankly, I can see how one would make that mistake if we're talking about say Budweiser.

I don't know who's on better form... You or BroDeal.

 

[Race Radio]

I am sure many will enjoy this exchange


Hayden Roulston ‏@HaydenRoulston
Can't wait to see @hornerakg's power files along with EVERY reporter out there. Not! #boring #whocares! Just want to see him win!
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Michelle Cound ‏@michellecound 1m
Interesting comment from @HaydenRoulston that's the attitude to have (not!)