The Froome Files, test data only thread

Page 32 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Re:

djpbaltimore said:
Academia really doesn't operate like a law firm, but whatever. Notoriety can be a double-edged sword. Google what happened to Dr. Andrew Wakefield.

People act like people. Regardless the law has always been closely linked to acedemia. It's not a good point you're making.

I'm also not going to google outliers, that is pointless to debate.
 
Re:

djpbaltimore said:
Do law firms earn their business through peer reviewed study sections like academics? Lawyers deal with clients, academics deal with peers. Apples and oranges...

Law firms and lawyers themselves are heavily regulated just as much if not more than academia. Law firms must audit themselves along with requirement to have third party external auditing. Many lawyers and firms produce research papers on the law and precedent ruling which are peer reviewed just like acedemia, often they are peer reviewed by acedemia.
 
Many of the lawyers who publish in peer-reviewed journals work in academia as professors of law. Appearing on esquire does not help them get through peer review. You are shifting the goal-posts by now talking about lawyers in academia and not law-firms. My original point stands. If scientists fundamentally acted like lawyers, Dr. Swart would've billed someone for his time during the Froome study. I'll repeat my original point, notoriety is most beneficial when dealing with clients, not peers. Comparing law firms and academia is like comparing Apples and oranges.
 
Re:

djpbaltimore said:
Many of the lawyers who publish in peer-reviewed journals work in academia as professors of law. Appearing on esquire does not help them get through peer review. You are shifting the goal-posts by now talking about lawyers in academia and not law-firms. My original point stands. If scientists fundamentally acted like lawyers, Dr. Swart would've billed someone for his time during the Froome study. I'll repeat my original point, notoriety is most beneficial when dealing with clients, not peers. Comparing law firms and academia is like comparing Apples and oranges.

I think we actually agree. Whether Swart likes it or not, by mearly accepting the offer to test Froome will generate interest in the outcome along with the chance of more work for Swart.

It's very straight forward.
 
surely this was never likely to be of interest to peers? its just basic testing...interesting only because the numbers might be higher than normal? Not sure how it adds to the understanding of human physiology other than at the margins and perhaps for example where ferraris notes that bpm is correlated differently than anticipated between certain jumps in power output..

its importance is, and was always going to be, outside academia which is why more care should have been taken

Swart and his mate can laugh at those outwith their own arena but that's where they now are...not within...this ain't no conference :)

Depending on the outcome of the dodgy 2007 dossier Swart may find this will have done him more harm than good...his 'good' work may forever be linked with his conflation of it with the dodgy work...or at least him being part of the conflation...
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Re: Re:

acoggan said:
sniper said:
acoggan said:
Dear Wiggo said:
Nothing I have written about Coyle other than Coggan lauding his Amrstrong study

Telling lies does not become you: I have never "lauded" the study, simply pointed out how it came to be, why it was published, and why certain criticisms of it are totally off-base, e.g., Gore, Ashenden, et al. stupidly claiming that Monark never made an electronically-controlled cycle ergometer when in fact they did (and I believe still do).
you may not have lauded it.
but you dug deep to defend it and counter the justified suspicions.

What you call a defense was simply informed commentary. Would you prefer that I let people be misled by patently false statements (e.g., that the data, as presented, didn't demonstrate an improvement in Armstrong's efficiency)?
that's a fair point and no doubt much of your 'criticism of criticism' was warranted.
but a high degree of skepticism was very justified at that point, and it is again this time round.
 
Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
I thought that this was pretty interesting and in line with how I analyzed TT performance at the time of "the transformation".

http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/134870267983/swart-gsk-froome-study-quick-thoughts

John Swanson

Very good post.

This was what I was articulating a few days ago. For the hypnosis of weight loss to be true the performances would have to linearly following the loss and gain within a reasonable % of error.

It didn't.

The take home summary of Swart’s GSK study is that it offers a failed hypothesis of a weight loss mechanism to explain the grand tour transformation and provides no significant evidence to decrease the prior probability of doping. Based on the presented data, it is an interesting uncontrolled observational study without much further implication.

In order to test this hypothesis, one can check for a dose response curve consistent with the proposed weight loss mechanism. This approach is necessary in the absence of a good cross over control condition (ie having Froome gain weight and race subsequent grand tours to see if performance drops back to the previous levels). Causation is supported if the correlation shows a dose response consistent with the mechanism. From his interview with Kimage, Froome puts his weight at 70-71 kg with Barloworld, 69 kg during his first year with Sky, and 67 kg in 2011 on. What we see in the grand tour performance is 83rd and 34th place finishes at the 70-71 kg weight, a disqualification at 69 kg for holding on to a vehicle during a climb, and then a series of podium finishes at 67 kg. I would argue that this limited data suggests a level change rather than dose response predicted by Swart’s hypothesis as well as an effect greater than would be expected from a weight change mechanism alone.

To illustrate, consider what might be expected from a weight loss mechanism if performance change is modeled from an observed baseline climb. For example, using the finishing climb on stage 10 of the 2015 Tour de France, a Froome like rider (67 kg, CdA .35, Crr .004, drivetrain loss 2.4%) would need an average 419 watts according to the Martin model on cyclingpowerlab.com to finish the 14.89 km, 7.22% climb in the 40 min 54 sec as Froome did in the race. Maintaining the same power but increasing his weight, Froome would have finished this climb in 41 min 42 sec at 69 kg, and 42 min 30 sec at 71 kg according to the model. So the weight would have put him back by 48 sec and 1 min 36 sec respectively. Those times would still have been good enough for 1st and 4th on the stage that day if we substitute in the simulation for Froome’s actual time. The caveat here is that the simulation does not account for accumulated fatigue over multiple climbs.

Another way to assess for causation of the weight loss mechanism is to the test it across a different condition where there should be little to no effect. Since weight has a relatively small effect on CdA, and Froome’s VO2 dropped with weight, Swart’s hypothesis predicts that Froome’s TT performance should have not improved or worsened with the weight loss if it was the dominant factor. Instead, just like climbing results, Froome’s TT results in grand tours also increased by a large level change 33, 16, 34, 32, 138, and 39th prior to 2011 Vuelta and 2, 11, 2, 2, 3, 2, 1st etc from 2011 Vuelta on.

Since, the improvement in grand tour climbing performance is far greater than the mathematically modeled effect of the weight loss, and the large level change in climbing performance trends with the large level change in grand tour TT performance which should be relatively independent of the weight change mechanism, it is fairly safe to reject the weight loss mechanism as the dominant factor in Chris Froome’s performance change.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Re:

it's good Swart is reading in here.
no need to send him that link through any other medium.
 
Mar 27, 2015
435
0
0
Well, @Doctor_Hutch, who beated Froome a couple of seconds in 2010 Commonwealth Games TT, had higher Vo2max than Froome has in 2015.

https://twitter.com/Doctor_Hutch/status/672570892745105408?lang=fi

Froome seems to be quite chubby at that time:

CVjMLWaUkAAxXKp.jpg:thumb


By the pictures I had seen, he has been either fat or skinny with no muscles until he found his (Sky) way to controll his weight without loosing too much muscles. LCHF? AICAR? Who knows, but I have learned from the Clinic that one of them can be detected in doping tests.
 
Re:

harryh said:
Well, @Doctor_Hutch, who beated Froome a couple of seconds in 2010 Commonwealth Games TT, had higher Vo2max than Froome has in 2015.

https://twitter.com/Doctor_Hutch/status/672570892745105408?lang=fi

Froome seems to be quite chubby at that time:

CVjMLWaUkAAxXKp.jpg:thumb


By the pictures I had seen, he has been either fat or skinny with no muscles until he found his (Sky) way to controll his weight without loosing too much muscles. LCHF? AICAR? Who knows, but I have learned from the Clinic that one of them can be detected in doping tests.

Dr. Hutch needs to learn the term "higher", rather than "larger". Extremely poor use of the English language.

Here's Froome 2 months before the 2007 tests at 75.6kg, carrying 17% body fat, using poor equipment, lacking bike handling skills... :)

3151qjc.jpg
 
Mar 27, 2015
435
0
0
Re: Re:

thehog said:
harryh said:
Well, @Doctor_Hutch, who beated Froome a couple of seconds in 2010 Commonwealth Games TT, had higher Vo2max than Froome has in 2015.

https://twitter.com/Doctor_Hutch/status/672570892745105408?lang=fi

Froome seems to be quite chubby at that time:

CVjMLWaUkAAxXKp.jpg:thumb


By the pictures I had seen, he has been either fat or skinny with no muscles until he found his (Sky) way to controll his weight without loosing too much muscles. LCHF? AICAR? Who knows, but I have learned from the Clinic that one of them can be detected in doping tests.

Dr. Hutch needs to learn the term "higher", rather than "larger". Extremely poor use of the English language.

Very important point by you as always :D
 
Re: Re:

harryh said:
thehog said:
harryh said:
Well, @Doctor_Hutch, who beated Froome a couple of seconds in 2010 Commonwealth Games TT, had higher Vo2max than Froome has in 2015.

https://twitter.com/Doctor_Hutch/status/672570892745105408?lang=fi

Froome seems to be quite chubby at that time:

CVjMLWaUkAAxXKp.jpg:thumb


By the pictures I had seen, he has been either fat or skinny with no muscles until he found his (Sky) way to controll his weight without loosing too much muscles. LCHF? AICAR? Who knows, but I have learned from the Clinic that one of them can be detected in doping tests.

Dr. Hutch needs to learn the term "higher", rather than "larger". Extremely poor use of the English language.

Very important point by you as always :D

It was from the point of view that if he was attempting to be scientific about his viewpoint he was incorrect in his expression. I'd take him with a grain of salt. Then again he may just be an informal statement without much thought.
 
Re: Re:

thehog said:
harryh said:
Well, @Doctor_Hutch, who beated Froome a couple of seconds in 2010 Commonwealth Games TT, had higher Vo2max than Froome has in 2015.

https://twitter.com/Doctor_Hutch/status/672570892745105408?lang=fi

Froome seems to be quite chubby at that time:

CVjMLWaUkAAxXKp.jpg:thumb


By the pictures I had seen, he has been either fat or skinny with no muscles until he found his (Sky) way to controll his weight without loosing too much muscles. LCHF? AICAR? Who knows, but I have learned from the Clinic that one of them can be detected in doping tests.

Dr. Hutch needs to learn the term "higher", rather than "larger". Extremely poor use of the English language.

Here's Froome 2 months before the 2007 tests at 75.6kg, carrying 17% body fat, using poor equipment, lacking bike handling skills... :)

3151qjc.jpg
Hey, I am sure you would have said back then "that is the future winner of the Tour de France" :)
 
Re: Re:

red_flanders said:
ScienceIsCool said:
I thought that this was pretty interesting and in line with how I analyzed TT performance at the time of "the transformation".

http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/134870267983/swart-gsk-froome-study-quick-thoughts

John Swanson

I'd say this pretty much puts an end to the discussion.
Well in the manner that changes with power and weight makes sense for assessing climbing performance, you need to assess changes with power and the coefficient of drag area (CdA) for TT performances. I would not be surprised to learn that Froome's TT CdA has improved somewhat in that period. Also, not all TT performances are ridden au bloc, so you would need to remove any TTs where it was ridden strategically rather than as a true test.

I only offer those as thoughts for interpreting the data with context, not that I have actually made the assessments. They are simply observations on some of the factors to consider.

e.g. here's an image of his TT set up in 2008:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/froome-i-could-have-done-better-in-time-trial-94512

compared with more recent set up:
https://bikesandbidons.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/dauphinechrisfroome.jpg

Without testing, it's impossible to know what sort of aero differences there are but if I had to make a bet, the far cleaner and more stretched set up of recent times would be a much better CdA.
 
Pretty much every World Championship or Commonwealth Game time trial would have been a 100% effort from Froome, I assume. He's the guy who went through the trouble of "hacking" the Kenyan cycling federation's email account to get into the B-worlds. I can't imagine going through that amount of trouble to be allowed to start and then just farting around the course at half pace. That also removes the fatigue aspect, seeing as those races aren't after an arduous three-week stage race and allow for fully focused preparation.

Froome rode several of these time trials between 2007 and 2011 and didn't exactly set the world on fire in any of them, even with top of the line Pinarellos and Bianchis between his legs. Not a single time trial result to even suggest he had the rocket engine that one test from 2007 says he has, and then suddenly, out of nowhere, he explodes onto the scene as an absolute world class time trialler at the same time as he becomes the best climber in the world by quite a distance. Froome pre-'11 Vuelta and post-'11 Vuelta is like comparing apples to slow, mediocre oranges.

I'm sorry. I'm just not buying it. At least with Wiggins we could see he actually had a good engine all along because of what he was doing on the bike, and not just because some ancient document said that he had it. Not that I'm buying the Wiggins story either, mind you.
 
Re: Re:

Alex Simmons/RST said:
red_flanders said:
ScienceIsCool said:
I thought that this was pretty interesting and in line with how I analyzed TT performance at the time of "the transformation".

http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/134870267983/swart-gsk-froome-study-quick-thoughts

John Swanson

I'd say this pretty much puts an end to the discussion.
Well in the manner that changes with power and weight makes sense for assessing climbing performance, you need to assess changes with power and the coefficient of drag area (CdA) for TT performances. I would not be surprised to learn that Froome's TT CdA has improved somewhat in that period. Also, not all TT performances are ridden au bloc, so you would need to remove any TTs where it was ridden strategically rather than as a true test.

I only offer those as thoughts for interpreting the data with context, not that I have actually made the assessments. They are simply observations on some of the factors to consider.

e.g. here's an image of his TT set up in 2008:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/froome-i-could-have-done-better-in-time-trial-94512

compared with more recent set up:
https://bikesandbidons.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/dauphinechrisfroome.jpg

Without testing, it's impossible to know what sort of aero differences there are but if I had to make a bet, the far cleaner and more stretched set up of recent times would be a much better CdA.
don't forget the eliptical chainring on the latter too ;)
 
Another way to assess for causation of the weight loss mechanism is to the test it across a different condition where there should be little to no effect. Since weight has a relatively small effect on CdA, and Froome’s VO2 dropped with weight, Swart’s hypothesis predicts that Froome’s TT performance should have not improved or worsened with the weight loss if it was the dominant factor. Instead, just like climbing results, Froome’s TT results in grand tours also increased by a large level change 33, 16, 34, 32, 138, and 39th prior to 2011 Vuelta and 2, 11, 2, 2, 3, 2, 1st etc from 2011 Vuelta on.

While I agree with his general conclusions, weight loss would reduce CdA, it’s just that it wouldn’t do so by a linear relationship. Since weight is considered to vary by the cube of height, or a single dimension, and since CdA is a planar or two-dimensional parameter, one might argue that weight loss would reduce CdA by a 2/3 power relationship. Obviously, this is a rough estimate, as it depends on exactly where the weight lost was, but surely weight loss will result in some CdA decrease.

A maximum estimate of his weight loss might be to 88.5% of his original (from 75.6 kg to 67 kg). If we assume the 2/3 power relationship, that implies that his CdA dropped to 92% of his original. Meanwhile, his absolute V02max decreased to about 97.5 of his original. So his V02max/CdA actually increased by about 6%. This is significant, but as ScienceisCool argued, his TT results suggest a power/CdA increase of 10-15%. So some, but not all, of his better TTng might be due to weight loss.

However, if we take Froome at his word, he was actually at 70-71 kg at Barloworld, and 69 kg at Sky pre-2011. From 71 kg to 67 kg is a decrease to about 94.5% of original, implying a CdA decrease to about 96% of original. Now his power/CdA increases by only about 1.5%. That is a best case scenario, as 71 kg seems to be his greatest weight beginning in 2008/09.

Alex Simmons/RST said:
Without testing, it's impossible to know what sort of aero differences there are but if I had to make a bet, the far cleaner and more stretched set up of recent times would be a much better CdA.

Point noted, but again, keep in mind the stark change from before/after Vuelta 2011. Maybe his set up was poorer in 2008/09, but did it continue to be right up till August 2011? And then suddenly get better?

I don’t have a problem in claiming his effective CdA right now is better than in 2008, but that is not where the comparison begins and ends.
 
Re:

Merckx index said:
I don’t have a problem in claiming his effective CdA right now is better than in 2008, but that is not where the comparison begins and ends.
I was mainly commenting on factors to consider. I just quickly looked for examples of earlier set up and later set up to show there is definitely a positional difference but as I said, I've not looked at it in depth or specific times periods. Just suggesting perhaps those that do make more definite statements on reasons for relative TT performance differences should also consider these factors. Changes in performance are almost always multifactoral, and attempts to parse out each factor (legit or otherwise) require far more data that is or ever will be available.

As to impact of weight on CdA, there are other factors more likely to result in CdA changes than weight. The use of weight in estimating CdA is more about morphological formula to estimate CdA, i.e. the population trend is more weight = higher CdA (and taller or longer legs = higher CdA) but for an individual the change factors are more about position and equipment than weight per se (except where the weight change is such that it impacts ability to ride in a given position).
 
Sep 29, 2012
12,197
0
0
Re: Re:

Alex Simmons/RST said:
Merckx index said:
I don’t have a problem in claiming his effective CdA right now is better than in 2008, but that is not where the comparison begins and ends.
I was mainly commenting on factors to consider. I just quickly looked for examples of earlier set up and later set up to show there is definitely a positional difference but as I said, I've not looked at it in depth or specific times periods.

I am sure if someone else posted two photos of TT position to show it worsened over time you'd be in line to dismiss their analysis.

(Instantaneous) photos tell very little of TT position.