Academia really doesn't operate like a law firm, but whatever. Notoriety can be a double-edged sword. Google what happened to Dr. Andrew Wakefield.
djpbaltimore said:Academia really doesn't operate like a law firm, but whatever. Notoriety can be a double-edged sword. Google what happened to Dr. Andrew Wakefield.
djpbaltimore said:Do law firms earn their business through peer reviewed study sections like academics? Lawyers deal with clients, academics deal with peers. Apples and oranges...
djpbaltimore said:Many of the lawyers who publish in peer-reviewed journals work in academia as professors of law. Appearing on esquire does not help them get through peer review. You are shifting the goal-posts by now talking about lawyers in academia and not law-firms. My original point stands. If scientists fundamentally acted like lawyers, Dr. Swart would've billed someone for his time during the Froome study. I'll repeat my original point, notoriety is most beneficial when dealing with clients, not peers. Comparing law firms and academia is like comparing Apples and oranges.
that's a fair point and no doubt much of your 'criticism of criticism' was warranted.acoggan said:sniper said:you may not have lauded it.acoggan said:Dear Wiggo said:Nothing I have written about Coyle other than Coggan lauding his Amrstrong study
Telling lies does not become you: I have never "lauded" the study, simply pointed out how it came to be, why it was published, and why certain criticisms of it are totally off-base, e.g., Gore, Ashenden, et al. stupidly claiming that Monark never made an electronically-controlled cycle ergometer when in fact they did (and I believe still do).
but you dug deep to defend it and counter the justified suspicions.
What you call a defense was simply informed commentary. Would you prefer that I let people be misled by patently false statements (e.g., that the data, as presented, didn't demonstrate an improvement in Armstrong's efficiency)?
ScienceIsCool said:I thought that this was pretty interesting and in line with how I analyzed TT performance at the time of "the transformation".
http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/134870267983/swart-gsk-froome-study-quick-thoughts
John Swanson
The take home summary of Swart’s GSK study is that it offers a failed hypothesis of a weight loss mechanism to explain the grand tour transformation and provides no significant evidence to decrease the prior probability of doping. Based on the presented data, it is an interesting uncontrolled observational study without much further implication.
In order to test this hypothesis, one can check for a dose response curve consistent with the proposed weight loss mechanism. This approach is necessary in the absence of a good cross over control condition (ie having Froome gain weight and race subsequent grand tours to see if performance drops back to the previous levels). Causation is supported if the correlation shows a dose response consistent with the mechanism. From his interview with Kimage, Froome puts his weight at 70-71 kg with Barloworld, 69 kg during his first year with Sky, and 67 kg in 2011 on. What we see in the grand tour performance is 83rd and 34th place finishes at the 70-71 kg weight, a disqualification at 69 kg for holding on to a vehicle during a climb, and then a series of podium finishes at 67 kg. I would argue that this limited data suggests a level change rather than dose response predicted by Swart’s hypothesis as well as an effect greater than would be expected from a weight change mechanism alone.
To illustrate, consider what might be expected from a weight loss mechanism if performance change is modeled from an observed baseline climb. For example, using the finishing climb on stage 10 of the 2015 Tour de France, a Froome like rider (67 kg, CdA .35, Crr .004, drivetrain loss 2.4%) would need an average 419 watts according to the Martin model on cyclingpowerlab.com to finish the 14.89 km, 7.22% climb in the 40 min 54 sec as Froome did in the race. Maintaining the same power but increasing his weight, Froome would have finished this climb in 41 min 42 sec at 69 kg, and 42 min 30 sec at 71 kg according to the model. So the weight would have put him back by 48 sec and 1 min 36 sec respectively. Those times would still have been good enough for 1st and 4th on the stage that day if we substitute in the simulation for Froome’s actual time. The caveat here is that the simulation does not account for accumulated fatigue over multiple climbs.
Another way to assess for causation of the weight loss mechanism is to the test it across a different condition where there should be little to no effect. Since weight has a relatively small effect on CdA, and Froome’s VO2 dropped with weight, Swart’s hypothesis predicts that Froome’s TT performance should have not improved or worsened with the weight loss if it was the dominant factor. Instead, just like climbing results, Froome’s TT results in grand tours also increased by a large level change 33, 16, 34, 32, 138, and 39th prior to 2011 Vuelta and 2, 11, 2, 2, 3, 2, 1st etc from 2011 Vuelta on.
Since, the improvement in grand tour climbing performance is far greater than the mathematically modeled effect of the weight loss, and the large level change in climbing performance trends with the large level change in grand tour TT performance which should be relatively independent of the weight change mechanism, it is fairly safe to reject the weight loss mechanism as the dominant factor in Chris Froome’s performance change.
harryh said:Well, @Doctor_Hutch, who beated Froome a couple of seconds in 2010 Commonwealth Games TT, had higher Vo2max than Froome has in 2015.
https://twitter.com/Doctor_Hutch/status/672570892745105408?lang=fi
Froome seems to be quite chubby at that time:
![]()
By the pictures I had seen, he has been either fat or skinny with no muscles until he found his (Sky) way to controll his weight without loosing too much muscles. LCHF? AICAR? Who knows, but I have learned from the Clinic that one of them can be detected in doping tests.
ScienceIsCool said:I thought that this was pretty interesting and in line with how I analyzed TT performance at the time of "the transformation".
http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/134870267983/swart-gsk-froome-study-quick-thoughts
John Swanson
thehog said:harryh said:Well, @Doctor_Hutch, who beated Froome a couple of seconds in 2010 Commonwealth Games TT, had higher Vo2max than Froome has in 2015.
https://twitter.com/Doctor_Hutch/status/672570892745105408?lang=fi
Froome seems to be quite chubby at that time:
![]()
By the pictures I had seen, he has been either fat or skinny with no muscles until he found his (Sky) way to controll his weight without loosing too much muscles. LCHF? AICAR? Who knows, but I have learned from the Clinic that one of them can be detected in doping tests.
Dr. Hutch needs to learn the term "higher", rather than "larger". Extremely poor use of the English language.
harryh said:thehog said:harryh said:Well, @Doctor_Hutch, who beated Froome a couple of seconds in 2010 Commonwealth Games TT, had higher Vo2max than Froome has in 2015.
https://twitter.com/Doctor_Hutch/status/672570892745105408?lang=fi
Froome seems to be quite chubby at that time:
![]()
By the pictures I had seen, he has been either fat or skinny with no muscles until he found his (Sky) way to controll his weight without loosing too much muscles. LCHF? AICAR? Who knows, but I have learned from the Clinic that one of them can be detected in doping tests.
Dr. Hutch needs to learn the term "higher", rather than "larger". Extremely poor use of the English language.
Very important point by you as always![]()
Hey, I am sure you would have said back then "that is the future winner of the Tour de France"thehog said:harryh said:Well, @Doctor_Hutch, who beated Froome a couple of seconds in 2010 Commonwealth Games TT, had higher Vo2max than Froome has in 2015.
https://twitter.com/Doctor_Hutch/status/672570892745105408?lang=fi
Froome seems to be quite chubby at that time:
![]()
By the pictures I had seen, he has been either fat or skinny with no muscles until he found his (Sky) way to controll his weight without loosing too much muscles. LCHF? AICAR? Who knows, but I have learned from the Clinic that one of them can be detected in doping tests.
Dr. Hutch needs to learn the term "higher", rather than "larger". Extremely poor use of the English language.
Here's Froome 2 months before the 2007 tests at 75.6kg, carrying 17% body fat, using poor equipment, lacking bike handling skills...![]()
![]()
ScienceIsCool said:I thought that this was pretty interesting and in line with how I analyzed TT performance at the time of "the transformation".
http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/134870267983/swart-gsk-froome-study-quick-thoughts
John Swanson
Well in the manner that changes with power and weight makes sense for assessing climbing performance, you need to assess changes with power and the coefficient of drag area (CdA) for TT performances. I would not be surprised to learn that Froome's TT CdA has improved somewhat in that period. Also, not all TT performances are ridden au bloc, so you would need to remove any TTs where it was ridden strategically rather than as a true test.red_flanders said:ScienceIsCool said:I thought that this was pretty interesting and in line with how I analyzed TT performance at the time of "the transformation".
http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/134870267983/swart-gsk-froome-study-quick-thoughts
John Swanson
I'd say this pretty much puts an end to the discussion.
don't forget the eliptical chainring on the latter tooAlex Simmons/RST said:Well in the manner that changes with power and weight makes sense for assessing climbing performance, you need to assess changes with power and the coefficient of drag area (CdA) for TT performances. I would not be surprised to learn that Froome's TT CdA has improved somewhat in that period. Also, not all TT performances are ridden au bloc, so you would need to remove any TTs where it was ridden strategically rather than as a true test.red_flanders said:ScienceIsCool said:I thought that this was pretty interesting and in line with how I analyzed TT performance at the time of "the transformation".
http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/134870267983/swart-gsk-froome-study-quick-thoughts
John Swanson
I'd say this pretty much puts an end to the discussion.
I only offer those as thoughts for interpreting the data with context, not that I have actually made the assessments. They are simply observations on some of the factors to consider.
e.g. here's an image of his TT set up in 2008:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/froome-i-could-have-done-better-in-time-trial-94512
compared with more recent set up:
https://bikesandbidons.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/dauphinechrisfroome.jpg
Without testing, it's impossible to know what sort of aero differences there are but if I had to make a bet, the far cleaner and more stretched set up of recent times would be a much better CdA.
Another way to assess for causation of the weight loss mechanism is to the test it across a different condition where there should be little to no effect. Since weight has a relatively small effect on CdA, and Froome’s VO2 dropped with weight, Swart’s hypothesis predicts that Froome’s TT performance should have not improved or worsened with the weight loss if it was the dominant factor. Instead, just like climbing results, Froome’s TT results in grand tours also increased by a large level change 33, 16, 34, 32, 138, and 39th prior to 2011 Vuelta and 2, 11, 2, 2, 3, 2, 1st etc from 2011 Vuelta on.
Alex Simmons/RST said:Without testing, it's impossible to know what sort of aero differences there are but if I had to make a bet, the far cleaner and more stretched set up of recent times would be a much better CdA.
I was mainly commenting on factors to consider. I just quickly looked for examples of earlier set up and later set up to show there is definitely a positional difference but as I said, I've not looked at it in depth or specific times periods. Just suggesting perhaps those that do make more definite statements on reasons for relative TT performance differences should also consider these factors. Changes in performance are almost always multifactoral, and attempts to parse out each factor (legit or otherwise) require far more data that is or ever will be available.Merckx index said:I don’t have a problem in claiming his effective CdA right now is better than in 2008, but that is not where the comparison begins and ends.
Alex Simmons/RST said:I was mainly commenting on factors to consider. I just quickly looked for examples of earlier set up and later set up to show there is definitely a positional difference but as I said, I've not looked at it in depth or specific times periods.Merckx index said:I don’t have a problem in claiming his effective CdA right now is better than in 2008, but that is not where the comparison begins and ends.