The Gianni Moscon Bandwagon Jumping Thread

[Zinoviev Letter]

That's a weird binary choice to restrict yourself to. It stems from an assumption that racists are both monsters, way outside the bounds of normal society, and effectively irredeemable. Therefore if someone does something self-evidently racist, but doesn't seem to be a complete monster then that racism can't be real racism and should be downplayed.

There's no evidence that Moscon is a committed, politicised racist or an actual fascist or anything similar. But as we know that his response to getting angry with a black man was to racially abuse that black man we know, without any shadow of a doubt, that he is racist to some significant degree. People who aren't racist don't racially abuse other people. It's really not that complicated. But as I said much earlier in this thread being a racist isn't necessarily a permanent condition. People do change and they do learn. Lots of racists, particularly the casual or unthinking sort rather than the hardened recidivist sort, grow up, develop some basic decency or otherwise move on from that kind of malicious stupidity.

I've no time for people who want to argue that Moscon wasn't a racist. That's bizarre and looks like a desire to excuse racist behaviour. But I also think it's important not to insist that people can never be forgiven a past bigotry. It's because I'm willing to allow that people can learn, accept that their previous attitude was wrong and then change as a person that I'm so disappointed in Moscon's comments. They are evidence that he hasn't really reevaluated his previous attitude and actions and consequently they mean I can't give him credit for reevaluating his previous attitude and actions. If he'd responded by saying something along the lines of "I did something stupid and horrible, but as soon as I calmed down, I apologised. I understand that racism is unacceptable, I've accepted my punishment, Kevin has accepted my apology and now I want to put it behind me", I'd have a different opinion of him.

 

[jaylew]

Re:

That's a weird binary choice to restrict yoursel tof. It stems from an assumption that racists are both monsters, way outside the bounds of normal society, and effectively irredeemable. Therefore if someone does something self-evidently racist, but doesn't seem to be a complete monster then that racism can't be real racism and should be downplayed.

There's no evidence that Moscon is a committed, politicised racist or an actual fascist or anything similar. But as we know that his response to getting angry with a black man was to racially abuse that black man we know, without any shadow of a doubt, that he is racist to some significant degree. People who aren't racist don't racially abuse other people. It's really not that complicated. But as I said much earlier in this thread being a racist isn't necessarily a permanent condition. People do change and they do learn. Lots of racists, particularly the casual or unthinking sort rather than the hardened recidivist sort, grow up, develop some basic decency or otherwise move on from that kind of malicious stupidity.

I've no time for people who want to argue that Moscon wasn't a racist. That's bizarre and looks like a desire to excuse racist behaviour. But I also think it's important not to insist that people can never be forgiven a past bigotry. It's because I'm willing to allow that people can learn, accept that their previous attitude was wrong and then change as a person that I'm so disappointed in Moscon's comments. They are evidence that he hasn't really reevaluated his previous attitude and actions and consequently they mean I can't give him credit for reevaluating his previous attitude and actions. If he'd responded by saying something along the lines of "I did something stupid and horrible, but as soon as I calmed down, I apologised. I understand that racism is unacceptable, I've accepted my punishment, Kevin has accepted my apology and now I want to put it behind me", I'd have a different opinion of him.

Very good post, this.

 

[RedheadDane]

That's a weird binary choice to restrict yourself to. It stems from an assumption that racists are both monsters, way outside the bounds of normal society, and effectively irredeemable. Therefore if someone does something self-evidently racist, but doesn't seem to be a complete monster then that racism can't be real racism and should be downplayed.

Actually, I was just gonna post about that. Is Moscon a racist? Possibly; lower-case 'r' racist. The kind we probably all are, the kind simply affected by a society seeped through with those opinions, even if nobody realises it. And that's exactly why I can't judge him, because of a little saying involving stones and glass houses.
Is he a capital 'R' Racist? Possibly not.
And I'd say my B option is a sign of lower-case 'r' racism. A guy who'd been affected by society's ingrained racism and then - in a moment's weakness - let those subconscious thoughts slip out.

Has he expressed complete guilt and remorse for his actions? Perhaps not.
Does he have the potential to? Absolutely.

Just to clarify, I'm not defending Moscon's actions those were wrong, and he definitely crossed a line. I'm simply defending Moscon.

 

[pastronef]

Of course not. It was spoken, words; face-to-face between two guys who solved the issue between themselves. All the other (social) media ****** doesn't matter.

Except this wasn't two people in a park who shake hands and ride away, this was two professional athletes who compete at the highest level in a sport with a Code of Ethics. This act led to team Sky issuing a statement expressing that Moscons behaviour was wrong and unacceptable, this event led to a written warning and threat of termination of contract, it led to a suspension, and finally it led to an interview with an internationally renowned newspaper where the guilty party brushed it off as unimportant and said that he doesn't feel the need for remorse.

So, yes he did apologise in person but after his latest comments, freely given, its not unreasonable to question his genuine attitude towards racism and intolerance, some may be prepared to overlook racism in sport, at work or school or in their own home but many feel that it needs to confronted for the good of all, as noone should be subjected to such hate in a fair society.

Again, if he honestly does not truly understand just how bad his words were it's reasonable that he might not feel as guilty about it as (some) people might want him to. Looking at that interview it seems he might not have had that diversity course yet...

I think in the end this all boils down to what perspective you're looking at it from.

Either...

A: "Moscon is a terrible remorseless racist who hauls abusive language left and right."

Or...

B: Moscon is a generally nice young man who, in the heat of the moment said something offensive, which he might not have truly understood how bad it was."

I, for me, prefer option B. Partly because I just prefer to see the best in people, and partly because I know what it's like to say something in the heat of the moment. It doesn't matter if we're talking about pros, they're still ordinary people, and they solved it as ordinary people; privately. Moscon apologised and Reza forgave him. Really, it doesn't matter if the rest of the World never forgives, Reza did and that's all that matters.

agree 100%

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

That's a weird binary choice to restrict yourself to. It stems from an assumption that racists are both monsters, way outside the bounds of normal society, and effectively irredeemable. Therefore if someone does something self-evidently racist, but doesn't seem to be a complete monster then that racism can't be real racism and should be downplayed.

Actually, I was just gonna post about that. Is Moscon a racist? Possibly; lower-case 'r' racist. The kind we probably all are...

Sorry but no. I have never and will never racially abuse someone, no matter what.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

That's a weird binary choice to restrict yourself to. It stems from an assumption that racists are both monsters, way outside the bounds of normal society, and effectively irredeemable. Therefore if someone does something self-evidently racist, but doesn't seem to be a complete monster then that racism can't be real racism and should be downplayed.

Actually, I was just gonna post about that. Is Moscon a racist? Possibly; lower-case 'r' racist. The kind we probably all are...

Sorry but no. I have never and will never racially abuse someone, no matter what.

How can you know? Have you ever been in a situation in which you were pushed that far?
I also like to think that I'd never racially abuse someone, but I can't know for sure, coz I've never been in that situation.
Besides, even if the thoughts never gets expressed they're probably still there, deep down without anyone ever realising. That's what I meant by lower-case 'r' racism; thoughts so deeply ingrained in your mind you might not ever realise they're there.
In fact, having those thoughts come to light might be exactly what Moscon needed in order to change. The Diversity Course isn't for Reza's sake, it it's for anyone else's sake, it's for Moscon's sake.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

That's a weird binary choice to restrict yourself to. It stems from an assumption that racists are both monsters, way outside the bounds of normal society, and effectively irredeemable. Therefore if someone does something self-evidently racist, but doesn't seem to be a complete monster then that racism can't be real racism and should be downplayed.

Actually, I was just gonna post about that. Is Moscon a racist? Possibly; lower-case 'r' racist. The kind we probably all are...

Sorry but no. I have never and will never racially abuse someone, no matter what.

How can you know? Have you ever been in a situation in which you were pushed that far?
I also like to think that I'd never racially abuse someone, but I can't know for sure, coz I've never been in that situation.
Besides, even if the thoughts never gets expressed they're probably still there, deep down without anyone ever realising. That's what I meant by lower-case 'r' racism; thoughts so deeply ingrained in your mind you might not ever realise they're there.
In fact, having those thoughts come to light might be exactly what Moscon needed in order to change. The Diversity Course isn't for Reza's sake, it it's for anyone else's sake, it's for Moscon's sake.

Is this serious? That's an honest question because I'm unsure how anyone could be unsure if they were likely to racially abuse someone.

And yes, I have been in situations where if it were going to happen it would have happened. It didn't. Because I'm not a racist.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

That's a weird binary choice to restrict yourself to. It stems from an assumption that racists are both monsters, way outside the bounds of normal society, and effectively irredeemable. Therefore if someone does something self-evidently racist, but doesn't seem to be a complete monster then that racism can't be real racism and should be downplayed.

Actually, I was just gonna post about that. Is Moscon a racist? Possibly; lower-case 'r' racist. The kind we probably all are...

Sorry but no. I have never and will never racially abuse someone, no matter what.

How can you know? Have you ever been in a situation in which you were pushed that far?
I also like to think that I'd never racially abuse someone, but I can't know for sure, coz I've never been in that situation.
Besides, even if the thoughts never gets expressed they're probably still there, deep down without anyone ever realising. That's what I meant by lower-case 'r' racism; thoughts so deeply ingrained in your mind you might not ever realise they're there.
In fact, having those thoughts come to light might be exactly what Moscon needed in order to change. The Diversity Course isn't for Reza's sake, it it's for anyone else's sake, it's for Moscon's sake.

Is this serious? That's an honest question because I'm unsure how anyone could be unsure if they were likely to racially abuse someone.

Yes, it's serious. Because I don't know what lies at the deepest darkest depths of my mind. I hope if I ever end up in a situation like this I'll be able to show self-control, but I can't ever know because - honestly - I have a pretty short temper.
I know I'm not a saint, so I can't expect anyone else to be.

 

[hrotha]

For the sake of the argument, let's say I agree that a short temper and a heated discussion can result in throwing racist abuse at someone despite not being an overt racist (I don't actually agree, but ok). Even if that were the case, Moscon has had plenty of time to cool down and think about what he did, but he still chose to say the whole thing was ridiculous and to strongly suggest he didn't learn ***-all or feel any remorse. This is so obvious to me that I'm genuinely amazed anyone would disagree.

 

[RedheadDane]

Of course he might feel the whole thing is ridiculous, if he's still not realised how bad what he said was! You can't expect people to clear away subconscious thoughts in just a few months, those things might take a life-time.

And, as I've already mentioned multiple times, for me it always circles back to one simple fact:
Reza forgave him!
If Reza - the victim in this whole matter - could forgive, then why can't you?

 

[Pennino]

Just rename this thread in Good persons of CN forums United or something.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

For the sake of the argument, let's say I agree that a short temper and a heated discussion can result in throwing racist abuse at someone despite not being an overt racist (I don't actually agree, but ok). Even if that were the case, Moscon has had plenty of time to cool down and think about what he did, but he still chose to say the whole thing was ridiculous and to strongly suggest he didn't learn ***-all or feel any remorse. This is so obvious to me that I'm genuinely amazed anyone would disagree.

This is why I've not posted much on this subject. I really can't see how anyone would defend anything about Moscon in this situation.

 

[kingjr]

Just thinking, what if Reza called him a wop first?

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Just thinking, what if Reza called him a wop first?

I don't know what that means?

But regardless, that wouldn't make what Moscon said right or even any more acceptable.

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

Just thinking, what if Reza called him a wop first?

I don't know what that means?

But regardless, that wouldn't make what Moscon said right or even any more acceptable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wop

Do you know what Moscon said? Tell me.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Just thinking, what if Reza called him a wop first?

I don't know what that means?

But regardless, that wouldn't make what Moscon said right or even any more acceptable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wop

Do you know what Moscon said? Tell me.

We know he racially abused someone, it doesn't matter what term he decided to use.

 

[hrotha]

"Let's not jump to conclusions about what Moscon said, BUT WHAT IF REZA CALLED HIM A WOP"

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

"Let's not jump to conclusions about what Moscon said, BUT WHAT IF REZA CALLED HIM A WOP"

It's just ridiculous. I'm done. At least this thread is a good way to work out who isn't worth interacting with.

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

Just thinking, what if Reza called him a wop first?

I don't know what that means?

But regardless, that wouldn't make what Moscon said right or even any more acceptable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wop

Do you know what Moscon said? Tell me.

We know he racially abused someone, it doesn't matter what term he decided to use.

Context matters to me, and to Reza as well, apparently.

@hrotha, your point being?

 

[jaylew]

Re:

Of course he might feel the whole thing is ridiculous, if he's still not realised how bad what he said was! You can't expect people to clear away subconscious thoughts in just a few months, those things might take a life-time.

And, as I've already mentioned multiple times, for me it always circles back to one simple fact:
Reza forgave him!
If Reza - the victim in this whole matter - could forgive, then why can't you?

Maybe because he's hasn't really shown any true remorse.

And as I've mentioned several times, Reza isn't the only victim - it's not that simple. Besides, you're speaking for Reza but you have no idea what is going on in his head. Trust me on this one, he may have said one thing publicly, but he likely hasn't forgotten. Again, if he had said something extremely offensive towards women to a female cyclist and she said she forgave him, would that mean that you automatically had to dismiss your personal thoughts and feelings on the issue just because the immediate subject of the abuse wanted to put it behind her? Of course not.

 

[rick james]

this thread is getting a bit out of hand, I Like Moscon and I really wish he hadn't went down the road he has went down, it doesn't matter what started it he should never have used that language..

But as far as I can see the 2 riders have sorted it out, the teams have sorted it out, apologies have been accepted, Moscon has been dealt with, he knows he should not have used that language and it he ever talks like that again he should be kicked out of the pro peloton.


time to put a end to the matter

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

this thread is getting a bit out of hand, I Like Moscon and I really wish he hadn't went down the road he has went down, it doesn't matter what started it he should never have used that language..

But as far as I can see the 2 riders have sorted it out, the teams have sorted it out, apologies have been accepted, Moscon has been dealt with, he knows he should not have used that language and it he ever talks like that again he should be kicked out of the pro peloton.


time to put a end to the matter

Well, the obvious point is that he should never have used that language, of course, but the wider points of contention can create interesting - and indeed heated - discussion.

My thoughts are that:
- we can't excuse Gianni by way of a lack of intent to racially abuse unless he genuinely didn't know what he was saying could be seen as racist. Without knowing what was said it's impossible to verify, but given that the term was a "racial slur" and both parties agree on that, it is splitting hairs to defend him on that line of argument.
- if he knew what he was saying was a racist term, then of course he shouldn't have used that language, but the fact that racial slurs came to his mind to use in the first place is the problem - there are countless ways to offend people or express your anger without recourse to racist vocab.
- while Moscon may now know he shouldn't use that kind of language, his reaction leaves it open to interpretation whether he understands he shouldn't use that language because it's wrong or because it will get him into trouble.
- while Réza may have forgiven him, he also forgave Albasini. Berhane forgave Samoilau (who forfeited a month's salary but did not sit any time out, for comparison). But the minority riders should not be in a position where they have a hostile working environment, and shouldn't have to wonder who they will have to forgive next.

 

[Echoes]

Most people are in fact morally superior to a fully grown adult who has shown by his public actions that he is a racist.

I don't know. What I can say is that Moscon is behaving for more decently than you are and then many posters on here are. I keep saying that posters deliberately deny undisputable facts - namely that Moscon properly apologised, regretted what has done, realised it was a mistake and accepted his punishment - in order to make sure he's a very bad guy - in our days a racist is the most evil person on earth (rightly so, I'd need to say) - and so be all those who defend him by the same token (though in other times, those people would be the first to acknowledge that every accused person have the right to a lawyer) are people who "excuse" him (because they cannot make the difference between "excusing" and "forgiving", which crucial!!). Also by the same token they make sure that they on the contrary are on the "good" side.

"it does [a man] most harm of all to value himself for the most valuable thing on earth - goodness. The man who is proud of what is really creditable to him is the Pharisee, the man whom Christ Himself could not forbear to strike." (Gilbert Keith Chesterton in Heretics)

Given how keen you are to ensure that racist abuse, even racist abuse of a colleague in a workplace, should create no ongoing stigma for the perpetrator, I can only hope that these terrifying "antiracist associations" have more success in changing attitudes in your country in the future. It is entirely healthy that racist jokes are regarded as bigoted and unacceptable.

First let my colleague out of this, will you. She's not a racist, even by your standard. You didn't get it at all. Second I'm sorry that you don't see how humour works, which is always with "bad things". It's up to the listener to see the irony in it, the "second level". Obviously I think we are entitled to crack jokes on everything, provided it's for the sake of humour, strictly humour. If the guy speaks seriously, there's a problem...

Only hardened racists "don't see the offensive aspect" of that word.

As for your theory about Moscon, if he used it in anger as you suggest, then his purpose was to offend so he clearly is not some ignorant traveller from the distant past who did not understand that the word is racist. By the way, the Christie novel is almost 80 years old and even then the title was very controversial.

In my language there are still references to "L'art nègre", which is positive and I've heard several occurance of the word in a neutral or even positive way from people who did not realise how negatively connotated the word is. Moscon showed anger in a reflex during a race, during the lead-out of a sprint when Reza did a dangerous move. He did not have time to think. Such a word can quickly come out of a mouth when you don't have time to think. Not from anybody's mouth, it would not occur to me but my parents raised me in such a way (and other adults in my childhood, teachers, etc) but not everybody had my upbringing ...

 

[The Principal Sheep]

I don't know. What I can say is that Moscon is behaving for more decently than you are and then many posters on here are. I keep saying that posters deliberately deny undisputable facts - namely that Moscon properly apologised, regretted what has done, realised it was a mistake and accepted his punishment...

We don’t know what was said during the racial abuse or the apology, all we can say is that Moscon abused Reza, he later apologised and the apology was accepted, so we should accept this without any pretence of what Moscon called him, or indeed how sincere the apology was at that time. The bone of contention lies in whether Moscon has realised and accepted that his behaviour was wrong, you say he undeniably has, many including people defending Moscon dispute this. Your mention of Moscon accepting his punishment has nothing to do with his accepting that his behaviour was disgusting or needs to change.

Second I'm sorry that you don't see how humour works, which is always with "bad things". It's up to the listener to see the irony in it, the "second level". Obviously I think we are entitled to crack jokes on everything, provided it's for the sake of humour, strictly humour. If the guy speaks seriously, there's a problem...

Racist jokes tend to be told by racist people, I come across a lot (but thankfully not as much as I used too) of such disgusting humour in my line of work, I don’t condone sick jokes, it would not occur to me to seek comedy out of dead babies, raped women or such but then my parents raised me in such a way…

 

[phil-i-am]

It's funny that we don't even know what Moscon said and still a lot of you have hurt feelings and are first to judge him. Reza moved on but you won't. This is your opportunity to look down on a young guy and present your wisdom, impeccability, flawless morality and to feel you're a better guy.

Reza isn't a crybaby and respect for that.