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The Gianni Moscon Bandwagon Jumping Thread

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Re: Re:

pastronef said:
jmdirt said:
What he did was wrong. He had a consequence. Move on.

Hopefully when we read/hear about him in the future its not referred to: "Moscon, who once used racist language is leading the break". I dislike that all too common type of commentating.

I think we´ll hear that, on here and twitter, for a long time.

He is certainly doing his best to make sure that it follows him by making it clear that rather than feeling remorse he feels he was hard done by.
 
Re: Re:

Angliru said:
pastronef said:
jmdirt said:
What he did was wrong. He had a consequence. Move on.

Hopefully when we read/hear about him in the future its not referred to: "Moscon, who once used racist language is leading the break". I dislike that all too common type of commentating.

I think we´ll hear that, on here and twitter, for a long time.

I think that some of you are trying make some type of cycling internet martyr of Moscon, which is quite baffling.
He minimizes his actions by saying that "it's not like he killed someone". He needs to mature, and if he hasn't had his obligatory session in what is and what is not proper social behavior, it couldn't happen too soon. He's seems pretty clueless in respects to that.
If you read my previous post in this thread you'll see that I call his actions racist. He isn't a martyr IMO. What I am saying is that I don't want to hear about it every time that he is talked about in a race. I also hope that he learned something in this process, if nothing else maybe he learned to keep his 'views' to himself because let's be honest, if he is a racist a few hours of training aren't going to change that.
 
I am certainly on the side of many others here defending Moscon. He's young, he did something wrong, he's apologized, the situation has been resolved and he must clearly be feeling the stress of all the constant focus on it by press and fans.

Many significantly worse things have been done in the past by sportsmen and have received a lot less coverage, primarily because racism is such a sensitive topic at the moment. I understand why, but I feel bad for Moscon. He made a mistake in the heat of the moment, and it may feel to him like it is destroying his blossoming career.

Racism is wrong, don't get me wrong. But we - and the press - must move on, and give Moscon a chance to continue as normal.

Just the fact that this thread is still getting so many posts - including this post in of itself - is a real shame.

Having said that, I still feel his attitude should be better.
 
Re: Re:

jmdirt said:
Angliru said:
pastronef said:
jmdirt said:
What he did was wrong. He had a consequence. Move on.

Hopefully when we read/hear about him in the future its not referred to: "Moscon, who once used racist language is leading the break". I dislike that all too common type of commentating.

I think we´ll hear that, on here and twitter, for a long time.

I think that some of you are trying make some type of cycling internet martyr of Moscon, which is quite baffling.
He minimizes his actions by saying that "it's not like he killed someone". He needs to mature, and if he hasn't had his obligatory session in what is and what is not proper social behavior, it couldn't happen too soon. He's seems pretty clueless in respects to that.
If you read my previous post in this thread you'll see that I call his actions racist. He isn't a martyr IMO. What I am saying is that I don't want to hear about it every time that he is talked about in a race. I also hope that he learned something in this process, if nothing else maybe he learned to keep his 'views' to himself because let's be honest, if he is a racist a few hours of training aren't going to change that.

I honestly doubt that you'll hear much if any reference to this incident when his name is mentioned in a racing context.
 
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It takes a *certain* mindset to go to racial insults. Why not say ar$ehole or $hithead, etc.? It takes a special kind of stupid to degrade someone based on race. There seems to be no empathy, no regret on Moscon's part, so in my book he's a dirtbag. And Sky doling out a slap on the wrist when he's already not racing? Kind of connects the dots with their culture of misogyny and bullying. Sod the lot of them.
 
I of course do agree with Ruby here. It's surreal to read some posts like "he never apologised" or "never expressed regrets". :rolleyes:

Some really need self-introspection, I think. "Self-proclaimed antiracitsts" seemed to show they are morally superior people because they cast stones at a young guys they consider a racist. It seems pharisaic. Not really something to be proud of. Yes I defend Moscon, proud of it. Not what he said a few months ago but the way he behaved afterwards. He did it the right way. Some would say I'm sensitive about the issue. I've already said I started admiring the rider after Paris-Roubaix, like his background (the apple farmer, the accordion player, ...) but I'm also fed up at the attitude of some antiracist associations who would watch out every word we are saying at least in my country. We cannot even crack jokes anymore. It's getting pretty unhealthy... It's as though the Wehrmacht was at our door ...

Moscon explained why he thought the story was not fully told the way it happened. I'd refer to the interview that Safebet reported on this thread. In the leadout of a sprint Reza did a bad manoeuvre, Moscon almost crashed (during the Tour of Switzerland I heard Éric Boyer saying that Reza knew how to take risks in the lead out, he did that very well). He said one word he shouldn't have used. The most likely is that the word is "negro". Many people don't see the offensive aspect of the word "n*gger". A few decades ago it was a neutral term to refer to black people. Only recently it became an insult. Funny that today I talked about Agatha Christie's "Ten Little ***" with a colleague of mine. In any case, it's much probable that his word exceeded his thoughts ...
 
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Considering how upset some are getting about whether Moscon has really taken responsibility for his actions I feel that I've overlooked something key. Can someone perhaps post Moscons apology and any statement where its discussed what he said?

And to Echoes, may I ask which country you're from which you feel is impinging on your personal liberties?
 
Re: Re:

RedheadDane said:
jaylew said:
RedheadDane said:
Is it possible that Moscon might understand that what he did was wrong, but not how wrong? Which - reasonable - might cause him to think the punishment was too severe.
Perhaps he understands that (verbally) abusing Reza was wrong, but not that he crossed a line when he went for Reza's skin colour in the argument. As far as he's concerned what he said might be similar to if he'd referred to the fact that Reza is French, or - if it was part of a Team vs. Team argument - the fact that Reza is on FDJ.
In fact, it's entirely possible that he has overheard/witnessed several other arguments that didn't cause the same reactions, and - honestly - doesn't understand why it was only what he said that was punished.


He's not merely saying he didn't kill anyone. No one accused him of killing anyone, and that expression has a very clear implicit meaning: "Whatever I did, it wasn't a big deal and I shouldn't have been punished".

Does (Italian) Moscon know that implicit meaning?


He offers nothing in that interview in a way of an apology to either Reza or for his own actions but rather he feels no further responsibility for what happened.

He already apologised to Reza; right when it happened! Or is he supposed to apologise to Reza every time he says something?
Besides, isn't it possible that the reason he's declining to say any more is because he feels like he's already said what needed to be said, and now it's Reza's turn to have his side of the story heard?
Wow, that's a lot of rationalizing by you on his behalf - I see a bunch of hopeful assumptions there.

And you - and others - are assuming that he was 100% aware of how wrong what he did was, and just doesn't care. I'm not saying that was he did wasn't wrong, simply that it's entirely possible that he honestly doesn't understand how wrong it was, which might cause him to think the accusations were absurd.

That is not true. I really have no idea of his level of awareness - he doesn't appear to be the sharpest knife in the drawer. I do think he would have been better off keeping his mouth shut rather than say what he did as he doesn't sound at all contrite.

Why? One apology - face-to-face - which gets accepted, and without all the (social) media bull-*** should be enough. What exactly would Reza gain from Moscon stating in some random Italian newspaper that he's sorry for the incident? Moscon already said sorry to the only person - other than himself - who matters in this whole thing: Reza.
I couldn't disagree with this more. So if it was made public that he had instead said to Marianne Vos, "women shouldn't be racing bikes, they should stay in the bedroom and the kitchen", and then he apologized to her, it should be over and not matter to anyone else? Of course not. He would have offended other female (and male) cyclists and fans.
 
Echoes said:
"Self-proclaimed antiracitsts" seemed to show they are morally superior people because they cast stones at a young guys they consider a racist.

Most people are in fact morally superior to a fully grown adult who has shown by his public actions that he is a racist.

Echoes said:
I'm also fed up at the attitude of some antiracist associations who would watch out every word we are saying at least in my country. We cannot even crack jokes anymore. It's getting pretty unhealthy...

Given how keen you are to ensure that racist abuse, even racist abuse of a colleague in a workplace, should create no ongoing stigma for the perpetrator, I can only hope that these terrifying "antiracist associations" have more success in changing attitudes in your country in the future. It is entirely healthy that racist jokes are regarded as bigoted and unacceptable.

Echoes said:
any people don't see the offensive aspect of the word "n*gger".

Only hardened racists "don't see the offensive aspect" of that word.

As for your theory about Moscon, if he used it in anger as you suggest, then his purpose was to offend so he clearly is not some ignorant traveller from the distant past who did not understand that the word is racist. By the way, the Christie novel is almost 80 years old and even then the title was very controversial.
 
Moscon has not done himself any favours with his latest take on what happened. He is a young guy, and I dare anyone on here to say you didn't do or say something stupid at his age. But and it is a big but, he does not seem to see what the issue was, despite being called into Sky HQ and getting his wrist smacked. All he needed to say was, I apologised immediately, it was in the heat of the moment but I know it was still very wrong, I deeply regret it and I can assure everyone it will never ever happen again. That would have been the end of the story...
 
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Re:

ferryman said:
Moscon has not done himself any favours with his latest take on what happened. He is a young guy, and I dare anyone on here to say you didn't do or say something stupid at his age. But and it is a big but, he does not seem to see what the issue was, despite being called into Sky HQ and getting his wrist smacked. All he needed to say was, I apologised immediately, it was in the heat of the moment but I know it was still very wrong, I deeply regret it and I can assure everyone it will never ever happen again. That would have been the end of the story...

That's probably why he did it no? If he fully understood why it was very wrong he wouldn't have done it (I hope.)

People want him to show remorse with the full understanding of what he did but if he could do that then he wouldn't have done it in the first place.

It appears to me it takes a while to change someone's opinion and understanding of a subject like racism and it doesn't change over just a few weeks.
 
The Principal Sheep said:
Considering how upset some are getting about whether Moscon has really taken responsibility for his actions I feel that I've overlooked something key. Can someone perhaps post Moscons apology and any statement where its discussed what he said?

And to Echoes, may I ask which country you're from which you feel is impinging on your personal liberties?

maybe some should do the same than Reza and move on, only Reza and Moscon know what happened, he accepted the apolosizes, so by respect for him, why not do the same.
"Reza accepted the gesture and would not comment when asked to at the start of stage 4. FDJ confirmed that Reza had accepted Moscon's apology and that they backed their rider's wishes in drawing a line under the matter.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-launches-investigation-into-team-sky-and-moscon-after-racial-abuse-of-reza-at-romandie/
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/moscon-racially-abuses-reza-at-tour-de-romandie/
 
Re: Re:

deValtos said:
ferryman said:
Moscon has not done himself any favours with his latest take on what happened. He is a young guy, and I dare anyone on here to say you didn't do or say something stupid at his age. But and it is a big but, he does not seem to see what the issue was, despite being called into Sky HQ and getting his wrist smacked. All he needed to say was, I apologised immediately, it was in the heat of the moment but I know it was still very wrong, I deeply regret it and I can assure everyone it will never ever happen again. That would have been the end of the story...

That's probably why he did it no? If he fully understood why it was very wrong he wouldn't have done it (I hope.)

People want him to show remorse with the full understanding of what he did but if he could do that then he wouldn't have done it in the first place.

It appears to me it takes a while to change someone's opinion and understanding of a subject like racism and it doesn't change over just a few weeks.

I agree with all of this. I should have added 'with genuine remorse' somewhere in one of my sentences. I've not seen it so far...but as I did say, he's a young guy and he did apologise. I'm all for giving peeps the benefit. I've done and said some stupid f##k things in my life and thankfully been forgiven for them BUT not forgotten, and quite rightly reminded from time to time....
 
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CTQ said:
The Principal Sheep said:
Considering how upset some are getting about whether Moscon has really taken responsibility for his actions I feel that I've overlooked something key. Can someone perhaps post Moscons apology and any statement where its discussed what he said?

And to Echoes, may I ask which country you're from which you feel is impinging on your personal liberties?

maybe some should do the same than Reza and move on, only Reza and Moscon know what happened, he accepted the apolosizes, so by respect for him, why not do the same.
"Reza accepted the gesture and would not comment when asked to at the start of stage 4. FDJ confirmed that Reza had accepted Moscon's apology and that they backed their rider's wishes in drawing a line under the matter.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-launches-investigation-into-team-sky-and-moscon-after-racial-abuse-of-reza-at-romandie/
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/moscon-racially-abuses-reza-at-tour-de-romandie/

So would it be fair to say that we have no idea what was said other than it being racial, Moscon made no public apology but a personal apology to Reza whilst accompanied by a member of team Sky and Moscon is now saying that he has no guilt over the incident and people know it was ridiculous.

Personally, if someone uses racial abuse, shows no remorse, takes no responsibility but rather toe the company line and then calls it all a joke, why would you think he's any different than the racist he appeared to be?
 
The Principal Sheep said:
CTQ said:
The Principal Sheep said:
Considering how upset some are getting about whether Moscon has really taken responsibility for his actions I feel that I've overlooked something key. Can someone perhaps post Moscons apology and any statement where its discussed what he said?

And to Echoes, may I ask which country you're from which you feel is impinging on your personal liberties?

maybe some should do the same than Reza and move on, only Reza and Moscon know what happened, he accepted the apolosizes, so by respect for him, why not do the same.
"Reza accepted the gesture and would not comment when asked to at the start of stage 4. FDJ confirmed that Reza had accepted Moscon's apology and that they backed their rider's wishes in drawing a line under the matter.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-launches-investigation-into-team-sky-and-moscon-after-racial-abuse-of-reza-at-romandie/
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/moscon-racially-abuses-reza-at-tour-de-romandie/

So would it be fair to say that we have no idea what was said other than it being racial, Moscon made no public apology but a personal apology to Reza whilst accompanied by a member of team Sky and Moscon is now saying that he has no guilt over the incident and people know it was ridiculous.

Personally, if someone uses racial abuse, shows no remorse, takes no responsibility but rather toe the company line and then calls it all a joke, why would you think he's any different than the racist he appeared to be?

So you're prepared to treat someone racist without knowing exactly what happened between the two? We do not know the words used by Reza and Moscon. Have any other stories of this kind been read about Moscon? Not me, I keep my judgment in reserve. have a good day.
 
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Echoes said:
I of course do agree with Ruby here. It's surreal to read some posts like "he never apologised" or "never expressed regrets". :rolleyes:

Some really need self-introspection, I think. "Self-proclaimed antiracitsts" seemed to show they are morally superior people because they cast stones at a young guys they consider a racist. It seems pharisaic. Not really something to be proud of. Yes I defend Moscon, proud of it. Not what he said a few months ago but the way he behaved afterwards. He did it the right way. Some would say I'm sensitive about the issue. I've already said I started admiring the rider after Paris-Roubaix, like his background (the apple farmer, the accordion player, ...) but I'm also fed up at the attitude of some antiracist associations who would watch out every word we are saying at least in my country. We cannot even crack jokes anymore. It's getting pretty unhealthy... It's as though the Wehrmacht was at our door ...

Moscon explained why he thought the story was not fully told the way it happened. I'd refer to the interview that Safebet reported on this thread. In the leadout of a sprint Reza did a bad manoeuvre, Moscon almost crashed (during the Tour of Switzerland I heard Éric Boyer saying that Reza knew how to take risks in the lead out, he did that very well). He said one word he shouldn't have used. The most likely is that the word is "negro". Many people don't see the offensive aspect of the word "n*gger". A few decades ago it was a neutral term to refer to black people. Only recently it became an insult. Funny that today I talked about Agatha Christie's "Ten Little ***" with a colleague of mine. In any case, it's much probable that his word exceeded his thoughts ...

Quote 100%
 
CTQ said:
The Principal Sheep said:
CTQ said:
The Principal Sheep said:
Considering how upset some are getting about whether Moscon has really taken responsibility for his actions I feel that I've overlooked something key. Can someone perhaps post Moscons apology and any statement where its discussed what he said?

And to Echoes, may I ask which country you're from which you feel is impinging on your personal liberties?

maybe some should do the same than Reza and move on, only Reza and Moscon know what happened, he accepted the apolosizes, so by respect for him, why not do the same.
"Reza accepted the gesture and would not comment when asked to at the start of stage 4. FDJ confirmed that Reza had accepted Moscon's apology and that they backed their rider's wishes in drawing a line under the matter.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-launches-investigation-into-team-sky-and-moscon-after-racial-abuse-of-reza-at-romandie/
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/moscon-racially-abuses-reza-at-tour-de-romandie/

So would it be fair to say that we have no idea what was said other than it being racial, Moscon made no public apology but a personal apology to Reza whilst accompanied by a member of team Sky and Moscon is now saying that he has no guilt over the incident and people know it was ridiculous.

Personally, if someone uses racial abuse, shows no remorse, takes no responsibility but rather toe the company line and then calls it all a joke, why would you think he's any different than the racist he appeared to be?

So you're prepared to treat someone racist without knowing exactly what happened between the two? We do not know the words used by Reza and Moscon. Have any other stories of this kind been read about Moscon? Not me, I keep my judgment in reserve. have a good day.

We know that he racially abused a colleague at work. He even admits having done so. There's no mystery. There's no confusion. He's a racist. Holding "your judgment in reserve" says nothing about him, it merely displays your willingness to excuse racism.
 
The Principal Sheep said:
Considering how upset some are getting about whether Moscon has really taken responsibility for his actions I feel that I've overlooked something key. Can someone perhaps post Moscons apology and any statement where its discussed what he said?

Of course not. It was spoken, words; face-to-face between two guys who solved the issue between themselves. All the other (social) media *** doesn't matter.
 
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RedheadDane said:
Of course not. It was spoken, words; face-to-face between two guys who solved the issue between themselves. All the other (social) media ****** doesn't matter.

Except this wasn't two people in a park who shake hands and ride away, this was two professional athletes who compete at the highest level in a sport with a Code of Ethics. This act led to team Sky issuing a statement expressing that Moscons behaviour was wrong and unacceptable, this event led to a written warning and threat of termination of contract, it led to a suspension, and finally it led to an interview with an internationally renowned newspaper where the guilty party brushed it off as unimportant and said that he doesn't feel the need for remorse.

So, yes he did apologise in person but after his latest comments, freely given, its not unreasonable to question his genuine attitude towards racism and intolerance, some may be prepared to overlook racism in sport, at work or school or in their own home but many feel that it needs to confronted for the good of all, as noone should be subjected to such hate in a fair society.
 
The Principal Sheep said:
RedheadDane said:
Of course not. It was spoken, words; face-to-face between two guys who solved the issue between themselves. All the other (social) media ****** doesn't matter.

Except this wasn't two people in a park who shake hands and ride away, this was two professional athletes who compete at the highest level in a sport with a Code of Ethics. This act led to team Sky issuing a statement expressing that Moscons behaviour was wrong and unacceptable, this event led to a written warning and threat of termination of contract, it led to a suspension, and finally it led to an interview with an internationally renowned newspaper where the guilty party brushed it off as unimportant and said that he doesn't feel the need for remorse.

So, yes he did apologise in person but after his latest comments, freely given, its not unreasonable to question his genuine attitude towards racism and intolerance, some may be prepared to overlook racism in sport, at work or school or in their own home but many feel that it needs to confronted for the good of all, as noone should be subjected to such hate in a fair society.

Again, if he honestly does not truly understand just how bad his words were it's reasonable that he might not feel as guilty about it as (some) people might want him to. Looking at that interview it seems he might not have had that diversity course yet...

I think in the end this all boils down to what perspective you're looking at it from.

Either...

A: "Moscon is a terrible remorseless racist who hauls abusive language left and right."

Or...

B: Moscon is a generally nice young man who, in the heat of the moment said something offensive, which he might not have truly understood how bad it was."

I, for me, prefer option B. Partly because I just prefer to see the best in people, and partly because I know what it's like to say something in the heat of the moment. It doesn't matter if we're talking about pros, they're still ordinary people, and the solved it as ordinary people; privately. Moscon apologised and Reza forgave him. Really, it doesn't matter if the rest of the World never forgives, Reza did and that's all that matters.