THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION REPORT #1

[blutto]

...a couple of bits from an article written by Finian Cunningham...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The whole media chorus was based on a report from the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). The agency is a non-governmental organization headquartered in Montreal, Canada. It is associated with the International Olympic Committee, but it is a private organization with no legal foundation to “clean up athletics” as its mission statement contends. Interestingly, WADA announced earlier this year in March that it received $6.5 million in funding from various governments, including the US. Russia was not among its benefactors."

....and...

"Just like selective allegations of financial corruption at FIFA, the world football federation, the purpose is to undermine Russia, and in the latter case to detract from its hosting of the 2018 World Cup finals. Notably, British Conservative Party member Lord Sebastian Coe, who heads the International Athletics Association Federation, is among the outspoken voices calling for sanctions against Russia. Coe was also on Britain’s World Cup bidding team that lost out to Russia for the 2018 tournament."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....these comments by themselves can be seen as just bits of another point of view....but if they are cross referenced with the following article from Canada's "paper of record" they take on a bit more gravitas....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/olympics/kelly-why-we-should-be-thanking-russia-for-its-doping-scandal/article27201937/

Cheers

 

[Zebadeedee]

Re:

A signifiant thing I take from this is WADA themselves referring to it as WADAGATE..
Reading the reassuring mail from Reedie (to Russia) and his defense of it, may well mean that in the midst of all this WADA commission praise an overseen problem here may be issues inside WADA.

Ironically, this is also hinted in the report.

Why else? When you had doping enablers and fifth columnists like Blatter and McQuaid holding influential positions within WADA (Blatter e.g, on the board of directors of WADA!), then clearly the organisation is heavily compromised from within and suffering credibility accordingly.

 

[blutto]

Re: helm

Coe needs to do the decent thing and resign and retire from all public life with immediate effect.

......remember? blatter thinking he could do more good from the helm

( errr...covering his tracks )............coe is little different

Mark L

...yup very little...like teensey tiny microscopic little...

Cheers

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

...a couple of bits from an article written by Finian Cunningham...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The whole media chorus was based on a report from the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). The agency is a non-governmental organization headquartered in Montreal, Canada. It is associated with the International Olympic Committee, but it is a private organization with no legal foundation to “clean up athletics” as its mission statement contends. Interestingly, WADA announced earlier this year in March that it received $6.5 million in funding from various governments, including the US. Russia was not among its benefactors."

....and...

"Just like selective allegations of financial corruption at FIFA, the world football federation, the purpose is to undermine Russia, and in the latter case to detract from its hosting of the 2018 World Cup finals. Notably, British Conservative Party member Lord Sebastian Coe, who heads the International Athletics Association Federation, is among the outspoken voices calling for sanctions against Russia. Coe was also on Britain’s World Cup bidding team that lost out to Russia for the 2018 tournament."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....these comments by themselves can be seen as just bits of another point of view....but if they are cross referenced with the following article from Canada's "paper of record" they take on a bit more gravitas....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/olympics/kelly-why-we-should-be-thanking-russia-for-its-doping-scandal/article27201937/

Cheers

WADA not that independent. Who would've guessed

 

[doperhopper]

How lovely to hear everyone uttering "yeah, obvious, I knew it" once the scandal is out... similarity to the Pharmstrong's case is purely accidental.

 

[avanti]

Now the French are involved
"French prosecutors say a police search found 87,000 euros ($93,000) in cash in the house of the IAAF's former head of anti-doping, Gabriel Dolle."
http://my.xfinity.com/articles/sports-general/20151112/ATH--IAAF.Investigation-The.Latest/

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Re: Re:

... but it is a private organization with no legal foundation to “clean up athletics” as its mission statement contends...WADA announced earlier this year in March that it received $6.5 million in funding from various governments, including the US. Russia was not among its benefactors."

.

WADA not that independent. Who would've guessed

But how do you expect WADA to operate if not through funding from national federations (via their governments)? People don't work at WADA on a volunteer basis!

You are implying the staff at WADA are biased, which is a. pretty insulting to those people and b. lacks credible evidence. In spite of your cynicism (which in your case, and in most instances is very legitimate), I think we have to give the people at WADA the benefit of the doubt and that they are conscientious and professional in what they do.

They do have a legal foundation to clean up athletics because they have standing authority to take any case from any national federation to the CAS.

This report on Russia if read properly and in context IMO shows a very exhaustive and thorough report that has taken pains to be objective. It is just that in the case of Russia objective does not look very pretty. In fact it is pretty disgusting. I don't think you can suggest lack of independence in WADA for uncovering pretty damning facts.

The real culprits here are those people and organizations identified by the IC who collectively have what Pound calls a "fundamentally flawed mindset" when it comes to doping. In cycling the proof is in Astana and one has to wonder what is the mindset in Tinkoff-Saxo?

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

... but it is a private organization with no legal foundation to “clean up athletics” as its mission statement contends...WADA announced earlier this year in March that it received $6.5 million in funding from various governments, including the US. Russia was not among its benefactors."

.

WADA not that independent. Who would've guessed

But how do you expect WADA to operate if not through funding from national federations (via their governments)? People don't work at WADA on a volunteer basis!

You are implying the staff at WADA are biased, which is a. pretty insulting to those people and b. lacks credible evidence. In spite of your cynicism (which in your case, and in most instances is very legitimate), I think we have to give the people at WADA the benefit of the doubt and that they are conscientious and professional in what they do.

They do have a legal foundation to clean up athletics because they have standing authority to take any case from any national federation to the CAS.

This report on Russia if read properly and in context IMO shows a very exhaustive and thorough report that has taken pains to be objective. It is just that in the case of Russia objective does not look very pretty. In fact it is pretty disgusting. I don't think you can suggest lack of independence in WADA for uncovering pretty damning facts.

The real culprits here are those people and organizations identified by the IC who collectively have what Pound calls a "fundamentally flawed mindset" when it comes to doping. In cycling the proof is in Astana and one has to wonder what is the mindset in Tinkoff-Saxo?

....in point of fact I'm not but that writer seems to think so...but please don't let that little fact get in the way of your rant...

....and one more thing, D!ck Pound is a fine upstanding kinda guy and not at all the publicity chasing political hack some people accuse him of being...

...carry on reading properly and in context and so on and so forth...

Cheers

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Re: Re:

A signifiant thing I take from this is WADA themselves referring to it as WADAGATE..
Reading the reassuring mail from Reedie (to Russia) and his defense of it, may well mean that in the midst of all this WADA commission praise an overseen problem here may be issues inside WADA.

Ironically, this is also hinted in the report.

Why else? When you had doping enablers and fifth columnists like Blatter and McQuaid holding influential positions within WADA (Blatter e.g, on the board of directors of WADA!), then clearly the organisation is heavily compromised from within and suffering credibility accordingly.

Blatter and McQuaid are of course no longer involved in the governance of WADA. WADA has an executive and a foundation. The foundation is the decision making entity. They have representatives from the 5 continents who have experience in the Olympic movement and neither FIFA or the UCI is recognized as one of those movements. A careful review of their governance structure appears to ensure there is a representative make-up of people from all over the world as it should be.

It is irresponsible to suggest WADA is compromised with no evidence other than in the distant past Blatter and McQuaid were small parts of the governance. I suggest you review the governance section of the WADA website.

 

[MountTiede]

Pound's "fundamentally flawed mindset" with regard to doping is probably best seen in action at the Bulgarian Weightlifting Federation and the international governing body the International Weightlifting Federation.

The recent news that all 11 Bulgarian weightlifters at a training camp for the 2015 European championships tested positive following an unannounced visit from independent testers sent by the governing body, as a result of the Bulgarian National squad being involved in a number of previous positive test scandals, surprised few within the sport. This latest major doping scandal was the same deal as in 1988, 2000 and more recently in 2008 when 11 Bulgarians tested positive for methandienone (Dianabol).

Bulgaria has again been threatened with expulsion by the IWF, unless they pay $500.000 US. This will be officially announced November 18-19th. If they don’t pay the fine, Bulgarian weightlifters will be banned for the fourth time in the last 25 years from competing in IWF events.

The first part of the fine has to be paid within 6 months. If not the country ban will kick in, which in turn would lead to the Bulgarian WL federation losing their license from the Ministry of Sport. The Bulgarian Ministry of Sport has said that it doesn’t have the money, so the Weightlifting Federation is currently looking for sponsors, yes you read that right, to pay their fine!.

The athletes caught were recently notified of their bans by the IWF.

Instead of 4 year bans for first offenses and a lifetime bans for second offenses, incredibly the Bulgarians who tested positive will receive 9 and 18 months respectively.

The reduced penalties are because they made a convincing point that the supplements they took may have been tainted.

Clueless, totally clueless.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Re: Re:

... but it is a private organization with no legal foundation to “clean up athletics” as its mission statement contends...WADA announced earlier this year in March that it received $6.5 million in funding from various governments, including the US. Russia was not among its benefactors."

.

WADA not that independent. Who would've guessed

But how do you expect WADA to operate if not through funding from national federations (via their governments)? People don't work at WADA on a volunteer basis!

You are implying the staff at WADA are biased, which is a. pretty insulting to those people and b. lacks credible evidence. In spite of your cynicism (which in your case, and in most instances is very legitimate), I think we have to give the people at WADA the benefit of the doubt and that they are conscientious and professional in what they do.

They do have a legal foundation to clean up athletics because they have standing authority to take any case from any national federation to the CAS.

This report on Russia if read properly and in context IMO shows a very exhaustive and thorough report that has taken pains to be objective. It is just that in the case of Russia objective does not look very pretty. In fact it is pretty disgusting. I don't think you can suggest lack of independence in WADA for uncovering pretty damning facts.

The real culprits here are those people and organizations identified by the IC who collectively have what Pound calls a "fundamentally flawed mindset" when it comes to doping. In cycling the proof is in Astana and one has to wonder what is the mindset in Tinkoff-Saxo?

....in point of fact I'm not but that writer seems to think so...but please don't let that little fact get in the way of your rant...

....and one more thing, D!ck Pound is a fine upstanding kinda guy and not at all the publicity chasing political hack some people accuse him of being...

...carry on reading properly and in context and so on and so forth...

Cheers

Well I would hardly call my post a rant, but it seems you are overly prickly!! The quote you referred to and posted of Cunningham's seems to indicate WADA is not independent which IMO is not the case. If that was not your point of view why did you post the quote of Cunningham and make it the central part of your post? Benotti adopted that position in his post based on your posting of that quote.

When you look at WADA's governance structure after some growing pains, i.e. their Foundation, it is pretty representative of Olympic movement people from around the world. I agree that it is the make up of the Foundation where it could contain people who are more political than they are anti-doping committed.

But the people who actually did the Russian investigation which Pound took considerable pains to lay out in great detail in the IC report are staff at WADA who have no political axe to grind and were clearly independent of the Foundation. To even imply without evidence the staff are not independent thinkers and professional based on some reporters view of WADA generally (Cunningham) is unconvincing.

Here's to context!

 

[Zebadeedee]

Re: Re:

A signifiant thing I take from this is WADA themselves referring to it as WADAGATE..
Reading the reassuring mail from Reedie (to Russia) and his defense of it, may well mean that in the midst of all this WADA commission praise an overseen problem here may be issues inside WADA.

Ironically, this is also hinted in the report.

Why else? When you had doping enablers and fifth columnists like Blatter and McQuaid holding influential positions within WADA (Blatter e.g, on the board of directors of WADA!), then clearly the organisation is heavily compromised from within and suffering credibility accordingly.

Blatter and McQuaid are of course no longer involved in the governance of WADA. WADA has an executive and a foundation. The foundation is the decision making entity. They have representatives from the 5 continents who have experience in the Olympic movement and neither FIFA or the UCI is recognized as one of those movements. A careful review of their governance structure appears to ensure there is a representative make-up of people from all over the world as it should be.

It is irresponsible to suggest WADA is compromised with no evidence other than in the distant past Blatter and McQuaid were small parts of the governance. I suggest you review the governance section of the WADA website.

Utter tosh. It is not irresponsible at all to postulate that a crook like Blatter - himself dismissive of a drug problem in football - serving as a director on the WADA foundation board is hardly going to advance the cause of WADA. Quite the opposite and I very much doubt that those two were the only ones subverting the anti-doping effort from within.

 

[Weapons of @ss Destruction]

Re: Re:

I don't know much, but it seems to me that having a sport sign on to the WADA code gives a "legal foundation". perhaps this Finian chap hasn't taken the time to understand how that works, and is just shooting from the hip? He certainly wouldn't be the first journalist to do so.

As for D1ck Pound, I'm of the opinion that most of the rap against him arose from his very vocal stance against Armstrong, before all the cool kids were doing it. Once that lingering sentiment is removed, what has Pound really done that is so objectionable? Fight the good fight, knowing it's not a battle that can ever be entirely won? Take opportunities to publicize the scope of the issue to bring awareness instead of allowing it to remain in the shadows? (re: aforementioned "fight the good fight") For anyone that wants to fight doping, Pound seems like a pretty handy fellow to have around. For those who aren't so strongly opposed to doping, I can see why they might dislike Pound or want to knock him down a few rungs.

....in point of fact I'm not but that writer seems to think so...but please don't let that little fact get in the way of your rant...

....and one more thing, D!ck Pound is a fine upstanding kinda guy and not at all the publicity chasing political hack some people accuse him of being...

...carry on reading properly and in context and so on and so forth...

Cheers

 

[BullsFan22]

Robbie, do you think Pound will go after the NHL soon? I'd say probably not. What about Beckie Scott? Woman went from a nobody in terms of world cup, olympic and world championship success in xc skiing, then, then, in the 1999-2000, she starts pulling off top 10 results. In the 1998 Olympics, her results were 45, 47, 51, and 60th. In Salt Lake she won the pursuit (after, surprisingly, Danilova and Lazutina were caught doping), 4th in 10km (after Danilova and Lazutina's DQ's) and 5th in the sprint (just missing the final and being beaten by, among others, Sachenbacher who was busted in Sochi and Tchepalova who was never busted but probably doped). Then she just even better and almost won the overall world cup in 2006 by going on a massive streak the second half of the season and then promptly retiring. You probably won't agree, Robbie, but for someone to make that big of a jump in a relatively short amount of time is staggering. She wasn't that far off the Russians when they were winning and she won races and had a fair amount of other podiums and top 10's. Predictably, she's become sort of a spokesperson for WADA in recent years.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

Here's to context!

---------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------

...well as long as we have context front-row-centre lets go down that road a bit shall we...

...the post that started your wee rant ( lets please call a spade a spade and further agree that blutto only comes in one colour, screamingly neon prickly ) had the following two bits in it....

"these comments by themselves can be seen as just bits of another point of view"

....which they most certainly are....so to repeat....just bits of another point of view....

...and....

"they take on a bit more gravitas"

....so its not like I'm bellowing something like, fools check this out because its the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth...what I was trying to present was what they call in historiographical methodology the contrast state...a view from the other side, of what in this case seems like just another in a long line of stories that begin with Russia=evil and Putin=devil incarnate then fill in with the current "facts" from the most recent news cycle....which is why I included the Kelly article which also takes a contrary line though not anywhere close to what Cunningham takes but it does provide a field within which Cunningham's view should at least be looked in a somewhat reasonable light...

....as for Pound...all he wants is to be is the head of the IOC, a position he tried very hard to take but failed...and my feeling is that he will do anything, even be sweet and straight and especially anti-doping ( because that is the best way to knock the current IOC powers off their perches ) and become the IOC version of Brian Cookson....and you've got Coe up to his eyeballs in this.......

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Robbie, do you think Pound will go after the NHL soon? I'd say probably not. What about Beckie Scott? Woman went from a nobody in terms of world cup, olympic and world championship success in xc skiing, then, then, in the 1999-2000, she starts pulling off top 10 results. In the 1998 Olympics, her results were 45, 47, 51, and 60th. In Salt Lake she won the pursuit (after, surprisingly, Danilova and Lazutina were caught doping), 4th in 10km (after Danilova and Lazutina's DQ's) and 5th in the sprint (just missing the final and being beaten by, among others, Sachenbacher who was busted in Sochi and Tchepalova who was never busted but probably doped). Then she just even better and almost won the overall world cup in 2006 by going on a massive streak the second half of the season and then promptly retiring. You probably won't agree, Robbie, but for someone to make that big of a jump in a relatively short amount of time is staggering. She wasn't that far off the Russians when they were winning and she won races and had a fair amount of other podiums and top 10's. Predictably, she's become sort of a spokesperson for WADA in recent years.

....he did and ran away when the backlash became too intense....and thing was he was onto something there but never had the cojones to go forward on this....would have been a heck of a coup....but...

Cheers

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Re: Re:

A signifiant thing I take from this is WADA themselves referring to it as WADAGATE..
Reading the reassuring mail from Reedie (to Russia) and his defense of it, may well mean that in the midst of all this WADA commission praise an overseen problem here may be issues inside WADA.

Ironically, this is also hinted in the report.

Why else? When you had doping enablers and fifth columnists like Blatter and McQuaid holding influential positions within WADA (Blatter e.g, on the board of directors of WADA!), then clearly the organisation is heavily compromised from within and suffering credibility accordingly.

Blatter and McQuaid are of course no longer involved in the governance of WADA. WADA has an executive and a foundation. The foundation is the decision making entity. They have representatives from the 5 continents who have experience in the Olympic movement and neither FIFA or the UCI is recognized as one of those movements. A careful review of their governance structure appears to ensure there is a representative make-up of people from all over the world as it should be.

It is irresponsible to suggest WADA is compromised with no evidence other than in the distant past Blatter and McQuaid were small parts of the governance. I suggest you review the governance section of the WADA website.

Utter tosh. It is not irresponsible at all to postulate that a crook like Blatter - himself dismissive of a drug problem in football - serving as a director on the WADA foundation board is hardly going to advance the cause of WADA. Quite the opposite and I very much doubt that those two were the only ones subverting the anti-doping effort from within.

That is exactly why WADA decided that the head of FIFA (Blatter) and the head of the UCI (McQuaid) should not have seats on the WADA executive or its foundation as they apparently did in the early days. Fortunately they did no damage to WADA other than raising in the mind of the public their bona fides, for the obvious reasons you raise.

But they are long gone and Blutto's comments and those of others who are trying to suggest that both Blatter and McQuaid are still involved in WADA, or to suggest their distant past involvement somehow compromises or taints WADA today is simply an absurd argument. To use your epithet it is utter tosh! To use mine “There are all kinds of arguments that annoy me, but what annoys me most is a lazy argument.” (Christopher Hitchens)

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Robbie, do you think Pound will go after the NHL soon? I'd say probably not. What about Beckie Scott? Woman went from a nobody in terms of world cup, olympic and world championship success in xc skiing, then, then, in the 1999-2000, she starts pulling off top 10 results. In the 1998 Olympics, her results were 45, 47, 51, and 60th. In Salt Lake she won the pursuit (after, surprisingly, Danilova and Lazutina were caught doping), 4th in 10km (after Danilova and Lazutina's DQ's) and 5th in the sprint (just missing the final and being beaten by, among others, Sachenbacher who was busted in Sochi and Tchepalova who was never busted but probably doped). Then she just even better and almost won the overall world cup in 2006 by going on a massive streak the second half of the season and then promptly retiring. You probably won't agree, Robbie, but for someone to make that big of a jump in a relatively short amount of time is staggering. She wasn't that far off the Russians when they were winning and she won races and had a fair amount of other podiums and top 10's. Predictably, she's become sort of a spokesperson for WADA in recent years.

WADA has no legal jurisdiction over the NHL. The NHL is a privately owned sports league. WADA as an organization only has jurisdiction over sports that are part of the Olympic movement so they can go after NHL players who participate in the Olympics, but that is usually only 25 players from Canada, the US, and Sweden. The Russian have a lot of NHL and KHL, same with the Czechs, the Swiss, the Finns etc. The IOC did suspend a Swedish player in the Sochi Games but I forget why.

As to Beckie Scott or any other elite athlete I am of the opinion that every elite athlete peaks for a period of time. Naturally all athletes peak at different times in their careers and for different lengths of time depending on their talent. Some athletes win one gold medal and fade away and others several medals (subject to doping). Some will have one or two great seasons and others several. Some great athletes are always at the top of their game - Federer, Sidney Crosby, Tom Brady, Usain Bolt, Stefan Curry, Cristiano Ronaldo Alberto Contador ( I recognize many think Bolt and Contador are there because they dope). I also think some athletes are just that good they don't need to dope (e.g. Crosby, Curry, Brady, Ronaldo)

But I live in an area of Canada where we have one of the worlds best XC venues (Sovereign Lake & Silver Star and a hop, skip and jump from Canmore (1988 Olympics)). I have watched Scott train and compete. I have also served as an official in XC competitions she has competed in and I just have an intuitive sense she was not a doper. There is certainly no credible evidence she was.

Call us Boy Scouts or Girl Guides but Canadian athletes generally tend to believe in clean competition more so than athletes of other countries, and Scott is one of those. That does not mean Canadian athletes don't dope, they do, but I suspect less per capita than most other countries (And please don't drag up Johnson which is now more than a quarter of a century ago)

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

... but it is a private organization with no legal foundation to “clean up athletics” as its mission statement contends...WADA announced earlier this year in March that it received $6.5 million in funding from various governments, including the US. Russia was not among its benefactors."

.

WADA not that independent. Who would've guessed

But how do you expect WADA to operate if not through funding from national federations (via their governments)? People don't work at WADA on a volunteer basis!

You are implying the staff at WADA are biased, which is a. pretty insulting to those people and b. lacks credible evidence. In spite of your cynicism (which in your case, and in most instances is very legitimate), I think we have to give the people at WADA the benefit of the doubt and that they are conscientious and professional in what they do.

They do have a legal foundation to clean up athletics because they have standing authority to take any case from any national federation to the CAS.

This report on Russia if read properly and in context IMO shows a very exhaustive and thorough report that has taken pains to be objective. It is just that in the case of Russia objective does not look very pretty. In fact it is pretty disgusting. I don't think you can suggest lack of independence in WADA for uncovering pretty damning facts.

The real culprits here are those people and organizations identified by the IC who collectively have what Pound calls a "fundamentally flawed mindset" when it comes to doping. In cycling the proof is in Astana and one has to wonder what is the mindset in Tinkoff-Saxo?

I no longer expect anything but corruption and politicing.

That WADA come down on Russia and yet the world is doping, proves a lot. bet if they looked anywhere else they would find doping on similar levels. Take Bulgaria and its weighlifting team. All busted again.

Where is WADAs report on Fuentes?

Where is WADAs report on US cycling and Weisel?

Why have they not told anti doping to stop using labs like Lausanne. Saugy crying about threats is bollix, imo.

 

[BullsFan22]

Robbie, do you think Pound will go after the NHL soon? I'd say probably not. What about Beckie Scott? Woman went from a nobody in terms of world cup, olympic and world championship success in xc skiing, then, then, in the 1999-2000, she starts pulling off top 10 results. In the 1998 Olympics, her results were 45, 47, 51, and 60th. In Salt Lake she won the pursuit (after, surprisingly, Danilova and Lazutina were caught doping), 4th in 10km (after Danilova and Lazutina's DQ's) and 5th in the sprint (just missing the final and being beaten by, among others, Sachenbacher who was busted in Sochi and Tchepalova who was never busted but probably doped). Then she just even better and almost won the overall world cup in 2006 by going on a massive streak the second half of the season and then promptly retiring. You probably won't agree, Robbie, but for someone to make that big of a jump in a relatively short amount of time is staggering. She wasn't that far off the Russians when they were winning and she won races and had a fair amount of other podiums and top 10's. Predictably, she's become sort of a spokesperson for WADA in recent years.

WADA has no legal jurisdiction over the NHL. The NHL is a privately owned sports league. WADA as an organization only has jurisdiction over sports that are part of the Olympic movement so they can go after NHL players who participate in the Olympics, but that is usually only 25 players from Canada, the US, and Sweden. The Russian have a lot of NHL and KHL, same with the Czechs, the Swiss, the Finns etc. The IOC did suspend a Swedish player in the Sochi Games but I forget why.

As to Beckie Scott or any other elite athlete I am of the opinion that every elite athlete peaks for a period of time. Naturally all athletes peak at different times in their careers and for different lengths of time depending on their talent. Some athletes win one gold medal and fade away and others several medals (subject to doping). Some will have one or two great seasons and others several. Some great athletes are always at the top of their game - Federer, Sidney Crosby, Tom Brady, Usain Bolt, Stefan Curry, Cristiano Ronaldo Alberto Contador ( I recognize many think Bolt and Contador are there because they dope). I also think some athletes are just that good they don't need to dope (e.g. Crosby, Curry, Brady, Ronaldo)

But I live in an area of Canada where we have one of the worlds best XC venues (Sovereign Lake & Silver Star and a hop, skip and jump from Canmore (1988 Olympics)). I have watched Scott train and compete. I have also served as an official in XC competitions she has competed in and I just have an intuitive sense she was not a doper. There is certainly no credible evidence she was.

Call us Boy Scouts or Girl Guides but Canadian athletes generally tend to believe in clean competition more so than athletes of other countries, and Scott is one of those. That does not mean Canadian athletes don't dope, they do, but I suspect less per capita than most other countries (And please don't drag up Johnson which is now more than a quarter of a century ago)

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this on this. Any medal winning athlete in the late 90's in 00's, particularly in endurance sports, particularly for making such a jump should be suspicious. With or without a positive test. I don't disagree with the idea that Canadian sports are generally speaking, more clean than a lot of countries, but I am not delusional. This is not a knock on Canada as a country and its values, but just looking at results, the trajectory and the competition (medal winning athletes that were either busted, suspected of doping or thought to be suspicious) she encountered and beat, I have my doubts.

 

[blutto]

Robbie, do you think Pound will go after the NHL soon? I'd say probably not. What about Beckie Scott? Woman went from a nobody in terms of world cup, olympic and world championship success in xc skiing, then, then, in the 1999-2000, she starts pulling off top 10 results. In the 1998 Olympics, her results were 45, 47, 51, and 60th. In Salt Lake she won the pursuit (after, surprisingly, Danilova and Lazutina were caught doping), 4th in 10km (after Danilova and Lazutina's DQ's) and 5th in the sprint (just missing the final and being beaten by, among others, Sachenbacher who was busted in Sochi and Tchepalova who was never busted but probably doped). Then she just even better and almost won the overall world cup in 2006 by going on a massive streak the second half of the season and then promptly retiring. You probably won't agree, Robbie, but for someone to make that big of a jump in a relatively short amount of time is staggering. She wasn't that far off the Russians when they were winning and she won races and had a fair amount of other podiums and top 10's. Predictably, she's become sort of a spokesperson for WADA in recent years.

WADA has no legal jurisdiction over the NHL. The NHL is a privately owned sports league. WADA as an organization only has jurisdiction over sports that are part of the Olympic movement so they can go after NHL players who participate in the Olympics, but that is usually only 25 players from Canada, the US, and Sweden. The Russian have a lot of NHL and KHL, same with the Czechs, the Swiss, the Finns etc. The IOC did suspend a Swedish player in the Sochi Games but I forget why.

As to Beckie Scott or any other elite athlete I am of the opinion that every elite athlete peaks for a period of time. Naturally all athletes peak at different times in their careers and for different lengths of time depending on their talent. Some athletes win one gold medal and fade away and others several medals (subject to doping). Some will have one or two great seasons and others several. Some great athletes are always at the top of their game - Federer, Sidney Crosby, Tom Brady, Usain Bolt, Stefan Curry, Cristiano Ronaldo Alberto Contador ( I recognize many think Bolt and Contador are there because they dope). I also think some athletes are just that good they don't need to dope (e.g. Crosby, Curry, Brady, Ronaldo)

But I live in an area of Canada where we have one of the worlds best XC venues (Sovereign Lake & Silver Star and a hop, skip and jump from Canmore (1988 Olympics)). I have watched Scott train and compete. I have also served as an official in XC competitions she has competed in and I just have an intuitive sense she was not a doper. There is certainly no credible evidence she was.

Call us Boy Scouts or Girl Guides but Canadian athletes generally tend to believe in clean competition more so than athletes of other countries, and Scott is one of those. That does not mean Canadian athletes don't dope, they do, but I suspect less per capita than most other countries (And please don't drag up Johnson which is now more than a quarter of a century ago)

....well lets go into the dark dank swamp outback and drag up something a bit more current shall we....does the name Eric Ryder Hesjedal ring any bells ? how about Roland Green ? or the rest of that west coast crew? or maybe Michael Barry? or maybe Geneviève Jeanson?....

...but nahhh we are Boy Scouts etc etc etc and we "generally tend to believe"....and children generally tend to believe in Santa Claus.....and btw spewing out that quote up thread from that drunken buffoon and apologist extraordinaire Hitchens and given what you've written here was darn near perfect... Boy Scouts ?, Girl Guides ?, and you actually personally saw Scott train and compete and you have this magic intuitive sense....lord thunderin jaysus maybe you should think of marketing that special super-duper sense because that sense right there is like real special eh !....

...and WADA has no "legal" jurisdiction over the NHL ?....one of the points that Cunningham makes is....

"It is associated with the International Olympic Committee, but it is a private organization with no legal foundation to “clean up athletics” as its mission statement contends."

....so is it more correct to say it has no legal foundation full stop ?...but yet it goes after a country that is engaged in a protracted public relations war with WADA's sponsors....but but but it can't clean up something in its own back yard ?...

...not to say I know what is going on here save that WADA has had a lot of very unsavoury people hanging around over the years and this particular chapter in their history just doesn't smell right...

Cheers

 

[python]

i regret coming late to this interesting thread and reading a lot of good commentary, including the informative posts (such as rhender's) and alternative views (such as bullsfan)...glad to see the discussion has not deteriorated into a black and white shouting match or a righteous chest beating (though seems there's plenty of that)

since i did not read the 300+ wada document (unlike in a 'pre-doping-fatigue' era when i could quote wada documents from memory), i'll limit myself to general commentary...zero surprise at the mega-doping by the russians. i'm even ready to believe that the 'white hats' in the west make a sound argument about their athletes being generally 'cleaner'. no, not due to their their superior values - which frankly speaking i consider a fluff - but due to powerful institutional and societal factors generally present in the systems that had developed via an openly competitive political process. don't take this comment literally as i'm acutely aware of the wide-spread corruption in the west including in sports. i'm talking of the theoretical chance of cleaning the mess once it gets really out of hand. many may argue, but 'getting' armstrong may serve as an illustration...

regarding wada and whether its report was political...i don't think it was in THIS case. however, assuming wada is completely apolitical and independent is naive. being a long time wada watcher from many angles (including from the inside - see later) i believe wada, like any organization with diverse stakeholders and sponsors, is subject to frequently intense or overbearing personal, opportunistic and local influences and even feuds.

and to conclude, i mentioned some place that i knew the russian wada lab head that just was forced out. he's an interesting dude. it's another story of how we met, enough to mention his english was good enough to answer my numerous questions re. the technical details of many doping cases. he even volunteered some juicy bits from several european, soviet, canadian and american doping cases. all those bits were to make a point in his view, that the state-sponsored doping was NOT a russian invention. i think mr. rodchenkov is right. also, he was remarkably candid - though imo somewhat devious - writing how he grew from a young phd partner in a pharmaceutical athlete-centred busines to head one of wada's most active labs...i can say now that i'd be the least surprised if he was found to be corrupt.

 

[frenchfry]

Robbie, do you think Pound will go after the NHL soon? I'd say probably not. What about Beckie Scott? Woman went from a nobody in terms of world cup, olympic and world championship success in xc skiing, then, then, in the 1999-2000, she starts pulling off top 10 results. In the 1998 Olympics, her results were 45, 47, 51, and 60th. In Salt Lake she won the pursuit (after, surprisingly, Danilova and Lazutina were caught doping), 4th in 10km (after Danilova and Lazutina's DQ's) and 5th in the sprint (just missing the final and being beaten by, among others, Sachenbacher who was busted in Sochi and Tchepalova who was never busted but probably doped). Then she just even better and almost won the overall world cup in 2006 by going on a massive streak the second half of the season and then promptly retiring. You probably won't agree, Robbie, but for someone to make that big of a jump in a relatively short amount of time is staggering. She wasn't that far off the Russians when they were winning and she won races and had a fair amount of other podiums and top 10's. Predictably, she's become sort of a spokesperson for WADA in recent years.

WADA has no legal jurisdiction over the NHL. The NHL is a privately owned sports league. WADA as an organization only has jurisdiction over sports that are part of the Olympic movement so they can go after NHL players who participate in the Olympics, but that is usually only 25 players from Canada, the US, and Sweden. The Russian have a lot of NHL and KHL, same with the Czechs, the Swiss, the Finns etc. The IOC did suspend a Swedish player in the Sochi Games but I forget why.

As to Beckie Scott or any other elite athlete I am of the opinion that every elite athlete peaks for a period of time. Naturally all athletes peak at different times in their careers and for different lengths of time depending on their talent. Some athletes win one gold medal and fade away and others several medals (subject to doping). Some will have one or two great seasons and others several. Some great athletes are always at the top of their game - Federer, Sidney Crosby, Tom Brady, Usain Bolt, Stefan Curry, Cristiano Ronaldo Alberto Contador ( I recognize many think Bolt and Contador are there because they dope). I also think some athletes are just that good they don't need to dope (e.g. Crosby, Curry, Brady, Ronaldo)

But I live in an area of Canada where we have one of the worlds best XC venues (Sovereign Lake & Silver Star and a hop, skip and jump from Canmore (1988 Olympics)). I have watched Scott train and compete. I have also served as an official in XC competitions she has competed in and I just have an intuitive sense she was not a doper. There is certainly no credible evidence she was.

Call us Boy Scouts or Girl Guides but Canadian athletes generally tend to believe in clean competition more so than athletes of other countries, and Scott is one of those. That does not mean Canadian athletes don't dope, they do, but I suspect less per capita than most other countries (And please don't drag up Johnson which is now more than a quarter of a century ago)

Now I would love to believe that Canadians are cleaner than the average dopers, but we don't have to go back to Johnson to find a doper wearing the maple leaf. Clara Hughes ring a bell? Ryder Hesjedal, Michael Barry, Chris Sheppard, Geneviève Jeanson.... the list is long and that is only the cyclists. Did you use the tried and true "I looked her in the eyes" test to determine her cleanliness?

I am being hard on you, but as a confirmed cynic I just don't know how we can be this naive on the subject. This isn't directed at Beckie Scott as I have absolutely no idea if she skiied clean, but at the situation in general.

A Canadian "hop, skip and a jump" is actually about a 7 hour drive (with a lunch stop included). In Europe that can get you through multiple countries!

 

[Cake]

There's a good article here
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/11992813/Athletics-doping-scandal-Shocking-story-of-67-purged-drug-samples.html

pointing up a slightly overlooked aspect of Monday's report: that the testing lab in Lausanne destroyed 67 blood samples despite clearly being told not to by WADA. Apparently there's an inquiry underway at the university hospital the lab is attached to.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

There's a good article here
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/11992813/Athletics-doping-scandal-Shocking-story-of-67-purged-drug-samples.html

pointing up a slightly overlooked aspect of Monday's report: that the testing lab in Lausanne destroyed 67 blood samples despite clearly being told not to by WADA. Apparently there's an inquiry underway at the university hospital the lab is attached to.

Overlooked? Only by some...for others it was one of the stand out parts of the report, being one of the unexpected bits...

Saugy gave a reply to a Swiss paper that's worth reading. He cites death threats and pointedly notes he has 3,000 pots of piss in the fridge, across multiple sports, waiting to be re-tested...