THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION REPORT #1

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

..............so who next deserves extra scrutiny..........kenya...ethiopia....usa.............uk....oz......

Mark L

All of the above and then some.

But lets start with the UK because I'm tired of the arrogance spewing up out that little island.

 

[jahn]

While western athletes dope too [insert remainder ad nauseam here], I don't think their governments and police pull this sort of thing:

“During a test in Saransk it was not only the problem with the police: when I
spent several hours giving the explanations, the policemen who were looking
after [looking for] the samples (waiting in front of the hotel room, willing to
accompany me and the samples to the train, the police in Moscow was
already aware about my arrival and was waiting - just to ensure the samples
will go to the Moscow lab. And when I left the hotel by the window during
the night in order to take another train (I left the light and the TV working in
a room, so they could imagine I'm inside), and the police were waiting at the
station in Moscow, I had to do my best to avoid them and to deliver the
samples to another person, who after this was no more able to do the transfer
of the samples). It was also a coach - a coach who has more than 20 positive
athletes in a few years, a coach who did not hesitate to call the Moscow lab
just in front of me and gave them the numbers of the bottles which must
arrive the next day, confirmed that the police keep an eye on them and said
that the lab know what to do...As the samples never arrived to the Moscow
lab and were analyzed in Lausanne, there were 4 positive tests, and the
person who transferred all samples was no more able to do this (the last
samples I took to Paris in my luggage), my mother received threatening
calls.”

I agree this shouldn't be made a political thing but the ad hominem rebuttals are tiresome with such evidence.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re:

..............so who next deserves extra scrutiny..........kenya...ethiopia....usa.............uk....oz......

Mark L

Each country is a different barrel of fish.

Ethiopia: Wild West. No NADO, no domestic testing except when IAAF comes (...). No organizational structure to set it up. Nothing to raid, no documents to subpoena, maybe some money changing hands through European banks.

Kenya: I bet the Kenyan Federation wants systematic doping, but is too incompetent to do it. Many in the bureaucracy would cut off their nose to spite their face, which will hopefully prove to be a good thing if future indicted individuals bring the ship down. A weird mix of corruption and total powerlessness as an athlete/agent may find themselves on the receiving end of pressure on Monday, and then laying it on officials on Tuesday.

US: Entrepreneurial doping, where bringing down Trevor Graham won't affect Jon Drummond's, Salazar's, or Li's operation. Big money involved, which could get police involved, but hard to take a broad swipe. Not to mention all of the foreign athletes that train in the US.

These cases are not dominoes waiting to fall. They're not even playing the same game.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

..............so who next deserves extra scrutiny..........kenya...ethiopia....usa.............uk....oz......

Mark L

Each country is a different barrel of fish.

Ethiopia: Wild West. No NADO, no domestic testing except when IAAF comes (...). No organizational structure to set it up. Nothing to raid, no documents to subpoena, maybe some money changing hands through European banks.

Kenya: I bet the Kenyan Federation wants systematic doping, but is too incompetent to do it. Many in the bureaucracy would cut off their nose to spite their face, which will hopefully prove to be a good thing if future indicted individuals bring the ship down. A weird mix of corruption and total powerlessness as an athlete/agent may find themselves on the receiving end of pressure on Monday, and then laying it on officials on Tuesday.

US: Entrepreneurial doping, where bringing down Trevor Graham won't affect Jon Drummond's, Salazar's, or Li's operation. Big money involved, which could get police involved, but hard to take a broad swipe. Not to mention all of the foreign athletes that train in the US.

These cases are not dominoes waiting to fall. They're not even playing the same game.

Spot on. Add to the fact that Track and Field, Cycling, Swimming, and other sports play second fiddle to Baseball, American Football and Basketball. Hockey is too, but you'll have to talk to Canadians and Mr. Pound about that. Those three sports bring in ridiculous amounts of money, coverage, viewership, etc. Majority of Americans hardly care about other sports. I mean look at ESPN, the self proclaimed "Worldwide Leader in Sports." They hardly give any real coverage of international sport and the public buys into it. It's all about Lebron, Kobe, Brady, Manning, The Yankees, The Red Sox, The Dodgers. These guys/teams are no doubt taking PED's and nobody ever talks about it. If they do, they are laughed at, and I am sure it's very hard for people within the circles to burst the bubble and show it to the public. That's not gonna happen in a long time. Perhaps never. The only reason people in the US are talking about the Russian scandal is because it's Russia and it's an easy political target for them.

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

So, where does WADA go from here? They have already sanctioned the Moscow lab (as of a few hours ago), submitted their findings to IAAF to sanction athletes and coaches. They have recommended sanction/ultimatum of Russian Federation to IAAF. I do trust IAAF to at least take the individuals' sanctions seriously, and we may see redistribution of medals (a US 800m runner is due to receive 3 new bronze medals...)

WADA has given information on the corruption side of the investigation to Interpol. D Pound said they would report on information of corruption before the end of the year. I don't know if that will be a formal report, like this (i.e. Independent Commission Report #2), as there is nothing in the official report that there is more information. I think WADA did well to follow every lead in the Russian case, and as far as we can tell, no stone left unturned.

Still in the air is all of the investigative information regarding Kenyan doping. It would contrast heavily with the depth and bredth of the Russian case to totally ignore Seppelts evidence (and other evidence accumulated) over issues of Kenyan doping. Specifically, charges of bribery/corruption, test cover-ups, and athlete and coach/training camp doping.

I do believe that WADA isn't biased in some unique way of favoring Kenyan and hating on Russians; I think of the big international sporting organizations, they're the least political by far.

So is there any idea on where WADA goes next?

I think WADA will be mainly responsive over the next 3-12 months while the yet un-released parts of the report is concluded in cooperation with Interpol. WADA perhaps hope that this serves as a scare off, to other nations trying to lend a hand to national athletes.

They don't have the ressources or political power to launch a global onvestagation (as much as some would wish for).

I think they will tighen ship, and make sure they get everything right (not overdoing it).

One thing I noticed (in trying to follow this closely) is that there is very little comments from any political enitity( in europe at least). This is only my personal observation and it's obviously flawed by my access and time to look into things, but nevertheless an observation of mine.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

One thing I noticed (in trying to follow this closely) is that there is very little comments from any political enitity( in europe at least). This is only my personal observation and it's obviously flawed by my access and time to look into things, but nevertheless an observation of mine.

I'm keeping my eye on the government side too. I'm reminded of this NY Times quote of a Russian Defense minister after Racewalking coach Viktor Chegin was exposed this summer:

“I think it’s all just once again people out to get Russia. It’s America. They want to weaken us. It’s all connected with politics.”

In my dream world, the Russian secret service gets called on to defend the state and hack into Coe's, or Salazar's, or Glen Mills's emails, and we get some tasty beans spilled. What's crazy is that it isn't too far fetched.

 

[doperhopper]

Re: Re:

One thing I noticed (in trying to follow this closely) is that there is very little comments from any political enitity( in europe at least). This is only my personal observation and it's obviously flawed by my access and time to look into things, but nevertheless an observation of mine.

I'm keeping my eye on the government side too. I'm reminded of this NY Times quote of a Russian Defense minister after Racewalking coach Viktor Chegin was exposed this summer:

“I think it’s all just once again people out to get Russia. It’s America. They want to weaken us. It’s all connected with politics.”

In my dream world, the Russian secret service gets called on to defend the state and hack into Coe's, or Salazar's, or Glen Mills's emails, and we get some tasty beans spilled. What's crazy is that it isn't too far fetched.

... and put something well detectable into their food/drink

 

[Farcanal]

Re: Re:

..............so who next deserves extra scrutiny..........kenya...ethiopia....usa.............uk....oz......

Mark L

All of the above and then some.

But lets start with the UK because I'm tired of the arrogance spewing up out that little island.

Right on Bro. Put those f..ers back in their place. You know I heard they even got a school in England where they take young guys and teach them how to be pros. What gives them the balls to believe anyone they've got could be pro?

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

One thing I noticed (in trying to follow this closely) is that there is very little comments from any political enitity( in europe at least). This is only my personal observation and it's obviously flawed by my access and time to look into things, but nevertheless an observation of mine.

Boris was reassuring everyone yesterday, that the Olympics were clean.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Another side/perspective on the story here:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/e618fb9783c9498e9c4630a91798e910/column-gulag-russian-cheating-must-be-dismantled

excerpt:

—"Russian athletes were often willing participants.
...
—Aside from whistleblowers, WADA investigators also "spoke with other Russian athletes to act as potential witnesses but many were simply too frightened for their careers or safety, or did not believe their testimony would change anything."

Daily Mail exclusive from two and half years ago
Russian Athletes ordered to dope by coaches

yeah...Coe only found out about this on Monday...and Paula was shocked...

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Athletics is crumbling . Slowly but surely one after another. If Russia goes down they will take everyone with them. This will be a domino effect of the likes not seen before.

If Russia don't fall then you know its a big a sham as it always was regards to PED's and its cover up.

It's not really that big at all. The IAAF was taking money from athletes back in the amateur days for them to compete. Coe was part of that rort. Doping has been systemic in athletics all the way through the the 70s, 80s & 90s from Russians, to British and the US. None of this is very new or surprising.

What I mean Hog is that if the Russians get away with it then you know Coe and his buddies are compliant as it always has been and don't want it getting out of hand, They will do a damage limitation job.
If they come down heavy on the Russians then people will talk , they Russians will let rip . Domino effect. Athletics will take a beating. Its all good for cycling .

 

[MLK]

I know that where there is evidence (especially evidence that comes into the public domain) it must be acted upon, but this really does feel like a bit of a joke....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04etMA6bgk

Internally the Russians, knowing full well what the rest of the world have been at for years, must be bemused to say the least.

It's hard to see an all out Olympic ban, the hypocrisy would be epic, but I'm sure an agreement will be made where enough heads roll (athletes and administrators) to make it appear like Russia have been brought into line.

 

[Benotti69]

Russia invested 50 million euro's to the IAAF in 2013. Do you think Coe will ban them from the Olympics?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re:

Russia invested 50 million euro's to the IAAF in 2013. Do you think Coe will ban them from the Olympics?

Depends. How big is his Nike contract?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Russia invested 50 million euro's to the IAAF in 2013. Do you think Coe will ban them from the Olympics?

Depends. How big is his Nike contract?

That is the official figure, imagine what the unofficial no receipts given figure is

 

[MLK]

Re:

Russia invested 50 million euro's to the IAAF in 2013. Do you think Coe will ban them from the Olympics?

No.

I'm sure the explanation will go something along the lines of 'It would be unfair to punish the Russian athletes who have done nothing wrong....'.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re: Re:

I'm sure the explanation will go something along the lines of 'It would be unfair to punish the Russian athletes who have done nothing wrong....'.

Gotta look after that 1% after all.

Ms. Evgeniya Pecherina, for example, a well-known discus thrower, stated that she thinks that around 99% of the National Team are doping,

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Russia invested 50 million euro's to the IAAF in 2013. Do you think Coe will ban them from the Olympics?

No.

I'm sure the explanation will go something along the lines of 'It would be unfair to punish the Russian athletes who have done nothing wrong....'.

I honestly believe there is a significant number of those athletes. More than we may think. Just my thought.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

The seminal issue is whether or not WADA and the IOC have the political will to ban Russia indefinitely, not just from the Rio Olympics but all current IAAF competitions. I do not think the Russians will ever be able to convince WADA and the IOC they have cleaned up the mess, because the Russians have zilch credibility.

Russians (the media, people on the street, athletes, sports organizations) are reported in the media as responding to the IC report with a "so what" or "who cares" attitude. I do not foresee what Pound calls their "flawed mentality" as changing. However they will fabricate a façade of action that will probably see the IOC and the IAAF to cave under some sort of political pressure.

The real question is what will it take to clean up sport or all we all just dreaming in Wonderland that this is even possible? If PEDs are a systemic fact of life that are incapable of being eliminated from sport, the last resort is the fan who either boycotts sport or continues to fool him/her self that competition is fair. At the present PEDs are here to stay in a substantial way for a long, long time!

 

[frenchfry]

Re:

Russia invested 50 million euro's to the IAAF in 2013. Do you think Coe will ban them from the Olympics?

After all, Astana was banned from cycling.

Wait a minute, they weren't....

 

[StryderHells]

The real question is what will it take to clean up sport or all we all just dreaming in Wonderland that this is even possible? If PEDs are a systemic fact of life that are incapable of being eliminated from sport, the last resort is the fan who either boycotts sport or continues to fool him/her self that competition is fair. At the present PEDs are here to stay in a substantial way for a long, long time!

Can't say I'm upto date with the legal working here but even if Russia were suspended from Rio then couldn't they take it to a CAS hearing and get reinstated?
As far as cleaning up the sport. This report isn't enough to do that, Russia can easily be brushed aside in Western media as they still exist in Joe Publics mind as those dodgy Ruskies, already seen the Australian media towing that line and talking about how our "clean" athletes have had Olympic medals stolen. This whole shebang will end up just the way cycling has, it's all about the perception of being clean rather than actually being clean.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Russia invested 50 million euro's to the IAAF in 2013. Do you think Coe will ban them from the Olympics?

After all, Astana was banned from cycling.

Wait a minute, they weren't....

No doubt Coe and Cookson are comparing notes with Brian on consultancy rates.... Afterall Russia are footing the bill.

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

Another side/perspective on the story here:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/e618fb9783c9498e9c4630a91798e910/column-gulag-russian-cheating-must-be-dismantled

excerpt:

—"Russian athletes were often willing participants.
...
—Aside from whistleblowers, WADA investigators also "spoke with other Russian athletes to act as potential witnesses but many were simply too frightened for their careers or safety, or did not believe their testimony would change anything."

Daily Mail exclusive from two and half years ago
Russian Athletes ordered to dope by coaches

yeah...Coe only found out about this on Monday...and Paula was shocked...

If Coe only found out monday (which imo is unbeleivable) it has been because the IAAF ethics commission who have been investagiting these things since mid 2014 chose not to inform the VP.

Either way he looks bad..

 

[mrhender]

Another thing, reading all the reactions and comments across the world, it is telling that almost everyone applaud the report and the work of the commission and the work done by Seppelt.

I wonder would all those officials applaud an investigation in their own house?

Because, no one (from official positions) afaik, has been expressing a wish to undergo the same "treatment".

This has become all about looking good, and rolling on the wave.

So bad that even Putin saw the need to comment with a reversed and expected logic that clean athletes should not be punished by the actions of the "few". Insinuating that banning Russia would be against the spirit of the WADA motto..

And then there is all the money, and funding of the IOC/WADA/IAAF.. And don't even get started on the politics.

My opinion is that this is so messy it probably will amount to very little.

My guess would be (at most) a short self-suspension from Russia, while they reform, not the system but just replace the individuals most compromised.

That way there's a new story to tell, and everybody wins.

A signifiant thing I take from this is WADA themselves referring to it as WADAGATE..
Reading the reassuring mail from Reedie (to Russia) and his defense of it, may well mean that in the midst of all this WADA commission praise an overseen problem here may be issues inside WADA.

Ironically, this is also hinted in the report.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Coe needs to do the decent thing and resign and retire from all public life with immediate effect.