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The Landis Affair - Part 2

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Oldman said:
Only to defaming the most prominent media figures and then the spotlight will dim because the sport is not a big deal here. It's going to be up to the rank and file to really get to the heart of the UCI, the sponsors, etc. Not that everyone will need to depart the sport; but some authority will have to emerge to deliver a clear message demanding change. Who would have that big profile? We're all open to suggestions.

I suppose in the era of globalization, the true test will be if this (Continental European) sport can stand-up to the risk of having its US and Anglo-based corporate sponsorship take a hike if Amrstrong really is denuded.

The UCI seems to feel that its sport has needed to go more global, to drive the profits, which more than just being with the times is also a sign of insecurity over the sport's well-being here on the Continent. Personally I'd rather see the sport get back to its roots and traditions, for the internationalization of cycling has to me made for less fanciful and thus more boring racing. Though I realize, despite my preferences, that it is pointless to try and turn back the clock. However cycling seems to me in the age of globalization to have only been made more fragile, because more susceptable to the international market tremers. If Armstrong's uncertain downfall actually does occur, then it will be interesting to see just how fragile the state of the sport really has become. In any case, there are a lot of twitching bums in the UCI headquarters these days for sure.
 

Dr. Maserati

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In relation to the UCI & IOC and the ongoing investigation in to Lance the same principle applies - its all about money and power.

The UCI makes most of its revenue through the TV rights of the World Championships and through funding from the IOC.

If the UCI come under investigation expect Verbruggen to quietly resign from the IOC & McQuaid to be relieved from the UCI - the IOC will not want any more unwanted scrutiny of their own activities.

As for Lance - well his star is on the descent, he is yesterdays man.
For the likes of Nike he does not have an athletic career that could last another 20 years, unlike Tiger.
It will be interesting to see if they feature another advertisement like this again this year.

Also - even leaving aside if USPS is Federal controlled - some politician somewhere is surely going to see the opportunity to raise questions - even if it only to mock others who fawned at Armstrong.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
In relation to the UCI & IOC and the ongoing investigation in to Lance the same principle applies - its all about money and power.

The UCI makes most of its revenue through the TV rights of the World Championships and through funding from the IOC.

If the UCI come under investigation expect Verbruggen to quietly resign from the IOC & McQuaid to be relieved from the UCI - the IOC will not want any more unwanted scrutiny of their own activities.

As for Lance - well his star is on the descent, he is yesterdays man.
For the likes of Nike he does not have an athletic career that could last another 20 years, unlike Tiger.
It will be interesting to see if they feature another advertisement like this again this year.

Also - even leaving aside if USPS is Federal controlled - some politician somewhere is surely going to see the opportunity to raise questions - even if it only to mock others who fawned at Armstrong.

Naw, the dems lack verve.
 
May 26, 2010
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rhubroma said:
What I'm waiting to find out, is whether the finacial considerations for cycling in the US and global markets mean that someone from Texas is or is not too big of a fish to catch.

I tend to have more confidence in business being able to put the necessary pressure to bear on the judicial and political powers to protect its investments and practices, than I do in seeing the courts bring down a corrupt system. In this sense Lance appears to be the connective element between the business of cycling and the cycling market in the US, and not just in product sales, but also television corporate commercial investments. He is thus convenient to a lot of corporate interests.

We will thus see if the myth can stand up to the latest accusations within the public sector. If it can withstand the revelations, I don't expect Lance to be discarded by his corporate shield and this will make bringing him down more difficult in the courts. If, on the other hand, the myth is seen for what it has always been, namely a bunch lies, then the corporations my begin to see the Texan as much less the asset than a burden: in which case he could be discarded and this would make it easier upon the courts to do what needs to be done.

Too many variables still at this stage, though, to have a clearer picture.

i think the business element exerting any pressure would be small, how many cycling involved sponsors spend big money on TV/Paper advertising? that is who will make this story big? Papers like NYTimes NYPost Sunday Times et al will not be affected by sponsors business on this story, they would benefit from the sales of a story of cancer boys fall from on high...
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
As for Lance - well his star is on the descent, he is yesterdays man.
For the likes of Nike he does not have an athletic career that could last another 20 years, unlike Tiger.

this may have been the real reason for comeback 2.0, the realisation that his income as a LA former sports start was minute compared to LA current sports star and if he could squeeze another TdF out of his drug cabinet it would bring so much more money and fame that would raise his profile amongst joe public...

I think in the LA vs Lemond battle may have been the niggle from LA that he doped to win the TdF whereas Lemond didn't* and if he ever got caught with PEDs and it was always a possibility, especially after LEmond questioned some performances, he would be a fallen hero whereas Lemond's TdFs would remain untarnished...

*for some reason no one (to my knowledge) has come out and said Lemond used x,y and z.....and boy if he did, someone could have made hay....but because it has not happened it points to a clean rider....
 
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greg promised and he he is

i think it’s a bit of an exaggeration to call greg’s comments to cn 'flandis affair p. 2'.

whilst spot on, he really didn’t add any new facts. by the comments we can only guess he knows a lot more and can’t talk yet.

what surprised me was that several months ago (was it around the time of french investigation into tdf transfusion kits ?)greg did promise to surface with some comments. and here he is. i could be wrong but i don't think it's a pure coincidence.

until more substantive news come out imo things are flowing in the right direction - usada is hard at work, the federal investigation was added a prosecutor’s muscle, more witness's are being quietly assembled...

the fact that the noose is tightening can be seen an armstrong’s almost daily nervous tantrums - 1st he lost his cool with the 16 yo luxembourgian, then he told a reporter not to ask stupid, f-king questions.. what’s next ?

things are going in the right direction. lets have some patience.
 

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laziali said:
No action until 3 July. Then it's going to go BOOM! Believe me when I tell you.

Why would we believe you?

To be honest, I think that until charges are being brought we won't hear anything new, unless a rider comes forth out of himelf to the press, or someone will spill some things over in the press, this latter will probably not come from the federal investigation and more likely will this come out of one of the cycling authorities their investigation, which, as I can already tell you will find nothing contrary to the rules have taken place (No, I don't have evidence for that, but that's just how big a cynic I am with the cycling authorities nowadays)
 
Benotti69 said:
i think the business element exerting any pressure would be small, how many cycling involved sponsors spend big money on TV/Paper advertising? that is who will make this story big? Papers like NYTimes NYPost Sunday Times et al will not be affected by sponsors business on this story, they would benefit from the sales of a story of cancer boys fall from on high...

We have gone over this, periferally, before. Such points are well taken. Mine is just pure curiosity over how much cycling has a draw within the corporate world, for which sport in general has become a major investment policy. Just look at our corporate sponsored stadiums and their commercial backing of big-time events. Its advertisement, publicity, propaganda and so forth. European football is just as corrupt, yet the colossal funds it moves globally means that it is "untouchable." OP and the Italian bribing of calcio refs scandal getting brushed under the carpet, has recently demonstrated this beyond reproachment status.

Naturally cycling doesn't have the clout of World Cup Football or say the NFL (which is pure corruption sanctioned by the state), however it is itself a sizeable business. This is why inside cycling, as with other sports, everything is so currupt, as happens anytime ethical rules and fair-play run into direct conflict with corporate sponsorship image management and large profit margins. Thus we get the cover-ups, the omertà and the protecting of the wrong folks all in the interests of preserving the show and the powerful entities behind it (and the scenes).

Lance is unique as a cyclist because his story and his cancer foundation has trancended the boundries of his sport. He was also put on a pedistal by a certain US political class as an image of American Virtue and strength, especially in regards to a Stars and Stripes "triumph over France.". His downfall would thus also be a considerable political embarassment to that faction. In this I'm sure the NY Times would actually benefit from such a report and probably is anxiously hoping for it.
 

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laziali said:
Because I know ;)



A former Fanboy then, eh? :D

Well, actually still a fanboy of certain riders. But I have been a cynic since 1998 probably. But even without that I still am a Pantani and Ullrich fanboy,e evn though I know of their checkered past, to me the institutions are more to blame. And well, I generally dislike Armstrong due to his behaviour and his cult and the fawning over him by the media
 
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rhubroma said:
Lance is unique as a cyclist because his story and his cancer foundation has trancended the boundries of his sport. He was also put on a pedistal by a certain US political class as an image of American Virtue and strength, especially in regards to a Stars and Stripes "triumph over France.". His downfall would thus also be a considerable political embarassment to that faction. In this I'm sure the NY Times would actually benefit from such a report and probably is anxiously hoping for it.

Lance certainly enjoyed some cover from that certain US political class..Riding MTBs with President SFB in a time when Sean Hannity was making up stories about the French wanting to dig up American graves at Normandy and throw them into the English Channel. Lance getting a pass from the French or even them promoting him with built in immunity from positive tests is not out of the question.. Triumph over France rah rah.
The NY Times anxiously hoping?? Seriously? Washington Times anxiously hoping not? Maybe Foxnews should get out in front of this for the sake of that certain political class. Maybe Bill O'Reilly could send Foxnews Security to visit Greg LeMond.
 
redtreviso said:
Lance certainly enjoyed some cover from that certain US political class..Riding MTBs with President SFB in a time when Sean Hannity was making up stories about the French wanting to dig up American graves at Normandy and throw them into the English Channel. Lance getting a pass from the French or even them promoting him with built in immunity from positive tests is not out of the question.. Triumph over France rah rah.
The NY Times anxiously hoping?? Seriously? Washington Times anxiously hoping not? Maybe Foxnews should get out in front of this for the sake of that certain political class. Maybe Bill O'Reilly could send Foxnews Security to visit Greg LeMond.

Why not. Wasn't it the neocons who branded the NYTimes that ultra-liberal, intellectually snobbish and thus anti-patriotic and un-American daily? I'd bet a few of their journalists wouldn't mind such a storyline.
 
A

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bobs *** said:
Ruby and Red, Kool aid thread's down the hall.

+1

I'm pretty sure you guys could figure out who is farther to the left on the Obama thread.

I think cycling could survive quite well outside of the IOC. In fact, the IOC might fare better too. I think the Olympics lost much when the lines between professional athlete and amateur athlete were discarded. I also think that LeMond is quite right to say the drug testing/penalty applications should be independent of the commercial interests, which it is clearly not.

UCI should be organizational/promotional. Some other entity could ensure fair play. Maybe LeMond chould reach out to Patrice Clerc?
 

Polish

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Every year at TdF time Greg gets on his soapbox.

This year is special, however, so he is starting early;)

Originally I thought he was going to work in tandem with Bordry/AFLD/Gendarmary/NeedleGate.
Maybe that is coming too?

Vive le Tour
 
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Scott SoCal said:
+1

I'm pretty sure you guys could figure out who is farther to the left on the Obama thread.

I think cycling could survive quite well outside of the IOC. In fact, the IOC might fare better too. I think the Olympics lost much when the lines between professional athlete and amateur athlete were discarded. I also think that LeMond is quite right to say the drug testing/penalty applications should be independent of the commercial interests, which it is clearly not.

UCI should be organizational/promotional. Some other entity could ensure fair play. Maybe LeMond chould reach out to Patrice Clerc?


This is the wrong thread, but that doesn't seem to stop people who need to post stuff to the political thread from posting here, but the olympics is a shadow of its former self for reasons you outlined as well as others.
 
A little back'n'forth between ElizaB and Bill Strickland re his new LA fanboy jazz mag:

“There’s a lot I don’t know about Lance Armstrong, which I’m honest about in the book—and I’m not just referring to doping.”

You really think you were honest in your book?
I’m still scratching my head by what your lawyer meant when he told my lawyer you performed “due diligence” when writing your book. I would think that my husband, Frankie, and I would’ve been contacted by you since you chose to write about us regarding an incident we were involved in with Lance Armstrong when he admitted to using performance enhancing drugs in front of six of his friends in response to a doctor’s question in a hospital conference room at Indiana University Hospital in October 1996. You did no such thing which makes me wonder about your “diligence” in writing this book - not to mention integrity.

On page 61 of this book which you are now touting, you have written the following passage which is outright misleading, false and inaccurate so much so that the English publishers of this same book agreed to change the passage so as not to be sued for libel:

“(At the trial, none of the eight other people who had been in that hospital room, including Armstrong’s primary cancer physician, backed up the Andreus’ testimony, nor did Armstrong’s written medical history.”

I will correct you on these five points:
1) There weren’t eight people in that room, there were seven people other than the doctors who entered.
2) Of the seven people in that room, only four were deposed and/or testified: Lance himself, Stephanie McIlvain, and my husband, Frankie Andreu, and I. Therefore, it’s incorrect to suggest the other three people did not back up our testimonies. The other three persons - Chris and Paige Carmichael as well as Lisa Shiels Bela were not deposed, did not sign affidavits nor would they even testify during this arbitration trial.
3) Stephanie McIlvain did indeed corroborate our testimonies to different degrees - first, in a conversation with Greg LeMond which was admitted as evidence, and, secondly, in her deposition when she stated that 2 men did enter the hospital room in order to ask Lance Armstrong questions. It was when the questions were asked that she didn’t hear anything at all. However, Lance’s attorney, Tim Herman, stated I misunderstood the doctors in this hospital room incident when Lance testified no doctors ever even entered this room where we were all present. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5508863 :

On the key issue of what was asked and what was said in the hospital room, Betsy Andreu insists she heard a doctor ask about performance-enhancing drugs, and heard Armstrong answer with a list of banned substances. Frankie Andreu insists he heard Armstrong respond with a list, too. Still Armstrong’s lawyer, Tim Herman, says the Andreu’s could have heard wrong.
“Mr. Armstrong was taking steroids at the time, as part of his post-operative treatment,” Herman said. “It’s very possible that there could’ve been mention of steroids and epo in this conversation with these two doctors indicating either the current regimen, or the regimen that Armstrong was gonna be subject to after this surgery, or when he got out of the hospital.”

The obvious question which arises is this: how was it possible for me to have misunderstood those doctors - as Lance’s attorney suggests - when Lance himself testified they were never present at this incident? How could I have misunderstood a doctor(s) Lance himself testified was never present which is in direct contradiction to his own attorney?

4) Lance’s primary care physician is not limited to Craig Nichols. Larry Einhorn, was also considered his primary care physician as well. No affidavit was ever offered by him or any of the other doctors who worked with Lance. Craig Nichols did indeed sign an affidavit this hospital incident never occurred. He was not present at this incident so it is correct to say it didn’t occur with him there. But it is incorrect, false and disingenuous to say it didn’t occur because he wasn’t present in that room.

5) The medical records presented for this incident by Lance at this arbitration case did not even include the date of this aforementioned hospital incident.

I must ask: what is your definition of “due diligence”, sir? If you read all the depositions and testimonies in the Lance/SCA arbitration case, certainly you would’ve seen all these conflicts in statements by Lance and his attorneys. Certainly you would’ve questioned Stephanie McIlvain’s deposition as well. Have you indeed read all of Lance’s medical records? I do wonder from whom and where you got your information regarding us and this incident- which is so lacking in honesty and due diligence that it’s mind boggling.

Journalists are supposed to be arbiters of the truth. Supposed to be. I understand in this instance the devil is in the details and details are annoying; the truth gets in the way of the lie.
Maybe you can shed some light as to why the truth doesn’t matter to some journalists - is it for access? for financial gain (such as writing favorable books)? for privilege?

The truth matters. Maybe not to some journalists - certainly not those who claim to know the truth but for tens of thousands of dollars will “…write whatever they want me to write.”
But it matters to those who tell it and those who want to know it.

Posted by: betsyandreu June 17th, 2010 at 7:25 am
Betsy,

It was (and is) my intention to treat each side of the doping debate fairly . . . which I suppose is why each side feels unfairly treated throughout various sections of the book—though I would say that, in total, it would be hard to deny the book takes an objective stance on the past. If lawyers had not become involved, I would think you and I could speak freely and come to an understanding. I respect the breadth and depth of your struggle, and the impact it has had on your life.

Bill

Also: Readers who want a detailed account of the hospital room incident and the relevant trial (which wasn’t the point of the short passage in my book) can find it in chapters 6 and 18 of David Walsh’s book “From Lance to Landis.” That seems to best represent Betsy’s views.

Posted by: Bill Strickland June 17th, 2010 at 9:35 am

I'm sure Bill would appreciate more views:

http://bicycling.com/blogs/sittingin/2010/06/14/what-i-know-about-lance/
 
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Oldman said:
We all know that's the right thing for the IOC to do. Unfortunately they are the ringleaders of the PED circus that is the rest of the Olympic venues and the UCI guys have the goods on them, too. That interdependence runs to figure skating, speed skating, cross country skiing and every dirty federation that protects their sovereign sport/media cash cow.

Here's what FIS (cross-country skiing) did recently. Tired of many EPO positives from the same country, FIS fined the Russian ski federation plus put them on notice that they could be banned from international competition unless changes are made.

http://fasterskier.com/2010/06/fis-sanctions-russian-federation-onus-is-on-them/

The FIS system has national anti-doping authorities testing athletes at home (e.g. USADA in the US), and FIS is responsible for testing at the world cup & world champs. The main difference to cycling is that there are no pro teams, all athletes are part of the national team. The problem in Russia? The national anti-doping effort was either corrupt or not funded - so there was effectively no out-of-competition testing in Russia at all.

The main problem IMHO? UCI has too much money (pro team licenses) and hence too much power. Too eager to keep it all to themselves. And too happy to hide as much dirt as they can get away with.

FIS does not do any out of competition testing since they don't have the budget for it - hence they have this opposite problem of relying on national federations. They have the power of sanctions which have proved to be a useful stick I'd say FIS has little corruption at its governing body level, but there's corruption at the national level. But - it's easier to root out if corruption is not at the top.
 
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Tubeless said:
Here's what FIS (cross-country skiing) did recently. Tired of many EPO positives from the same country, FIS fined the Russian ski federation plus put them on notice that they could be banned from international competition unless changes are made.

http://fasterskier.com/2010/06/fis-sanctions-russian-federation-onus-is-on-them/

The FIS system has national anti-doping authorities testing athletes at home (e.g. USADA in the US), and FIS is responsible for testing at the world cup & world champs. The main difference to cycling is that there are no pro teams, all athletes are part of the national team. The problem in Russia? The national anti-doping effort was either corrupt or not funded - so there was effectively no out-of-competition testing in Russia at all.

The main problem IMHO? UCI has too much money (pro team licenses) and hence too much power. Too eager to keep it all to themselves. And too happy to hide as much dirt as they can get away with.

FIS does not do any out of competition testing since they don't have the budget for it - hence they have this opposite problem of relying on national federations. They have the power of sanctions which have proved to be a useful stick I'd say FIS has little corruption at its governing body level, but there's corruption at the national level. But - it's easier to root out if corruption is not at the top.

FIS is also the organizer of every race. So it's really hard to compare.
 
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Just pure hate

I'm not an Armstrong fan,but LeMond is just motivated by hate , nothing more.
My English writing is not the best but just read his quotes make me feel sick.
 
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justliketocycle said:
I'm not an Armstrong fan,but LeMond is just motivated by hate , nothing more.
My English writing is not the best but just read his quotes make me feel sick.

You are correct, Lemond hates the dirtbags who have corrupted the sport for their own financial gain.
 

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