The latest Astana affair

[fatandfast]

I think the point was that Lance fans are not necessarily cycling fans. Look at the drop-off in viewer ratings for the Tour on Versus during the years Lance was riding and the three years he was retired. It's almost half; clearly the half who don't watch cycling when Lance isn't racing are Lance fans, not cycling fans.

In any case, do you really think cycling is any more popular in the US right now than it was pre-Lance? I certainly don't see it. Sure, everyone in the US knows who Lance Armstrong is, or what the Tour de France is, but ask them to name another cyclist or another bike race and you'll probably get blank stares. Personally, I don't think Lance has really had much impact in raising the popularity of the sport itself in the US at all. Awareness that it exists, yes, but I see no evidence that cycling is any more popular or has a larger fan base in the US than it did pre-Lance.

Anybody who buys a newspaper or magazine to read an Armstrong article is a race fan. Any 100 pound over weight guy and his wife can share a pizza and a 12 pack and finish it off with ice cream while watching Lance on TV is a race fan. Anybody who buys and wears a silly yellow ring because of Lance is race fan. Guys who wear Rapha kits who watch LA are fans. To say you see no increase may be true, but media/TV people measure and do see an increase. People who sell Lance crap see an increase. People who sell FRS see it too. You can hate the guy, no big deal, but right now the people from the Giro,Tour , Vuelta are all asking him how much start money does he want and where to send the check. Lance=people=revenue like no other cycling draw. All this and he will never win a GT again,this old guy is a genius.

 

[Race Radio]

is there a link to this video on youtube ?

So they are carefull enough to drive 2 hours away to dump this stuff but then stupid enough to let someone film it

You are welcome to search for it.

Armstrong and the Hog never said it wasn't for the team. They said the the dope, including the cow blood extract, was for Julien Devries a mechanic that has diabetes. (No joke, this is what they said). The fact that the large quantities were far to much for one person was ignored

 

[sherer]

You are welcome to search for it.

Armstrong and the Hog never said it wasn't for the team. They said the the dope, including the cow blood extract, was for Julien Devries a mechanic that has diabetes. (No joke, this is what they said). The fact that the large quantities were far to much for one person was ignored

again though you've said Armstrong and Bruyneel said something but no links to any quotes

 

[Race Radio]

again though you've said Armstrong and Bruyneel said something but no links to any quotes

Have you ever heard of Google?

 

[sherer]

well apart from quotes from this formum couldn't find much and nothing where Lance said it was someone who was diabetic.

Did see this

http://www.theorypedia.com/Why_Armstrong_Wins_The_Born_and_Built_to_Win_Theory_t590a9f0c.html

The comment is claimed to be from ex teammate Benoit Joachim but it could be anyone

 

[Race Radio]

well apart from quotes from this formum couldn't find much and nothing where Lance said it was someone who was diabetic.

Did see this

http://www.theorypedia.com/Why_Armstrong_Wins_The_Born_and_Built_to_Win_Theory_t590a9f0c.html

The comment is claimed to be from ex teammate Benoit Joachim but it could be anyone

I do not think that is from Benoit, but it would be true. Armstrong's numbers were seldom the top on his own team, in fact VDV's were.

Here is a good review of Coyle's "Work"
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/09/coyle-and-armstrong-research-errors.html

 

[sherer]

anyone know whatever happened to the court case mentioned in this article

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/3000562/Cycling-Armstrong-aims-to-ride-out-cycle-of-suspicion.html

 

[Cerberus]

Have you ever heard of Google?

I have and I'm sure he has as well, I cannot however find a single link to the video nor a credible source stating that the video exists. If you have a souce post it, if you don't have a source then don't expect anyone to believe it happened. I have no doubt that Armstrong did use doping, but that doesn't mean I believe everything I hear on the internet.

 

[Race Radio]

I have and I'm sure he has as well, I cannot however find a single link to the video nor a credible source stating that the video exists. If you have a souce post it, if you don't have a source then don't expect anyone to believe it happened. I have no doubt that Armstrong did use doping, but that doesn't mean I believe everything I hear on the internet.

I see your point, it is valid. It seems like often questions are asked that have been well covered. The video was shown on French TV. Sherer actually posted an article that covers the episode well.

It is interesting how much things have changed in the last 9 years. Now it would be on Youtube and 200 blogs. While the case did not result in a sanction it did result in a change in the rules. Under the AFLD not only would this not be allowed but Spencer would have spent more then a few nights in jail.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I have and I'm sure he has as well, I cannot however find a single link to the video nor a credible source stating that the video exists. If you have a souce post it, if you don't have a source then don't expect anyone to believe it happened. I have no doubt that Armstrong did use doping, but that doesn't mean I believe everything I hear on the internet.

From memory I know ultimatley the case was shelved but I cannot remember the reasons why or indeed anything on the web to confirm this.

The only thing on it I have found was when it was first mentioned on CyclingNews.

 

[poupou]

I have and I'm sure he has as well, I cannot however find a single link to the video nor a credible source stating that the video exists. If you have a souce post it, if you don't have a source then don't expect anyone to believe it happened. I have no doubt that Armstrong did use doping, but that doesn't mean I believe everything I hear on the internet.

As french, I have seen it! I cannot find it but you can find many confirmation in french of it.
One of them in Mondenard's book :
http://books.google.fr/books?id=RjAInSNJkbYC&pg=RA1-PA1000&lpg=RA1-PA1000

(about Lance on hematocrit at Larry King, there is a trasncript : http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/25/lkl.01.html )

 

[sherer]

it seems yes they did bring actovogin into France but remember the Basso defence. Maybe they just thought they might want to dope but didn't actually use any of

Can't find the TV3 clip on youtube though although I doubt that would be great just someone throwing some rubbish in a bin.

Not sure what to make of this story now. The link Iposted above seems so say acourt case was opened and the UCI wouldn't release the urine samples and couldn't find any more info to see what happened after that

 

[python]

the UCI wouldn't release the urine samples and couldn't find any more info to see what happened after that

blood samples brother. not urine. big difference!

 

[Anonymous]

blood samples brother. not urine. big difference!

Yea, one tastes MUCH better...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

it seems yes they did bring actovogin into France but remember the Basso defence. Maybe they just thought they might want to dope but didn't actually use any of

Can't find the TV3 clip on youtube though although I doubt that would be great just someone throwing some rubbish in a bin.

Not sure what to make of this story now. The link Iposted above seems so say acourt case was opened and the UCI wouldn't release the urine samples and couldn't find any more info to see what happened after that

Ok - I have found where they closed the investigation reported here.

It also includes that USPS said that one of its staff had diabetes.

 

[Race Radio]

it seems yes they did bring actovogin into France but remember the Basso defence. Maybe they just thought they might want to dope but didn't actually use any of

Can't find the TV3 clip on youtube though although I doubt that would be great just someone throwing some rubbish in a bin.

Not sure what to make of this story now. The link Iposted above seems so say acourt case was opened and the UCI wouldn't release the urine samples and couldn't find any more info to see what happened after that

An interesting point about the samples. During the investigation their samples were retested and found "too clean" with no levels of EPO or hormones.

Of course we now know that a very small amount of detergent can kill all the EPO in the test. We also know that Di Lucca had similar hormone issues.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Ok - I have found where they closed the investigation reported here.

It also includes that USPS said that one of its staff had diabetes.

I would like to see more information than this article since there is no comment on who, what, how much and when -- then French authorities quoted in the article would leave a person believing that the substance found was not a PED since it was not on the banned list (although if it worked as some hoped it would then be considered a PED). There is a statement about someone having diabetes, but no information (such as 160 needles) which would make that claim less than credible. I am still interested in looking at this information and there must be some article somewhere that gives the specifics on this situation.

The paragraph that leaves out what I was looking for:

"The investigation started in November 2000 after France 3 TV aired footage of what was alleged to be US Postal team staff disposing of rubbish bags in a suspicious manner. Analysis of the bags revealed quantities of medical products, including Actovegin, a product derived from calves blood used to treat diabetes and considered by some to have blood boosting effects. It was not explicitly on the UCI banned list, although if it worked as it promised it would fall under the banned category of "pharmacological or chemical manipulation of a rider's blood." The team claimed that no riders used Actovegin, while one of the staff needed it for diabetes."

 

[CentralCaliBike]

The only reference I was able to find in from a credible source about the 2000 investigation was another article by cyclingnews:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/editions/first-edition-cycling-news-for-january-22-2005

The following are the comments (along with comments on why the old information might be relevant):

"Last July, as Armstrong was riding to victory in his sixth straight Tour, a new investigation was opened by the Paris Brigade des Stupéfiants (Drug Squad), based in the Quai de Orfevres (the French equivalent of Scotland Yard), the very same bureau who looked into doping allegations raised against Armstrong by France 3 TV in 2000 that were later discredited and thrown out, but only after a long and fruitless investigation that featured a controversial investigative dossier that sported a picture of Armstrong with a giant syringe sticking out of his arm on its cover.

This time around, after reading the allegations by Armstrong's former USPS soigneur Emma O'Reilly in LA Confidentiel, the French drug squad asked O'Reilly to come to the Quai de Orfevres for a deposition, where she was accompanied by a French attorney Thibault de Montbrial, the same legal counsel that represented discredited Festina directeur sportif Bruno Roussel and is also counsel to one of LA Confidentiel's authors, Pierre Ballester. "

I would have liked also to know how the 2000 allegations were discredited as reported, if that was in fact the case.

 

[poupou]

List of products found:
http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/actualite/2000-uspostal-produits.htm

# 160 emballages vides de seringues
# Compresses teintées de sang
# Emballage de Noctamide (somnifère)
# Emballage de Zyloric (uricofreinateur)
# Emballage d'Esafosfina
# Emballage d'Epargriseovit (vitamines B12, PP et C, acide folique)
# Emballage de Ico Gamma
# Emballage de Lymphosole
# Emballage de S Amet 2000 (détoxiquant hépatique)
# Emballage d'Ipoazotal (acides aminés contre l'hyperammoniémie due à l'effort, intervenant aussi dans la sécrétion d'hormone de croissance)
# Emballage d'Ademetionine
# Emballage d'Apirogeno
# Emballage de Thioctacid (facilitateur du passage du glucose dans les cellules, souvent utilisé en culturisme)
# Emballage de Prefolic 50 (antianémique, détoxicant hépatique)
# Emballage d'Actovegin
# Emballage de Coltramyl (anticrampes que peuvent provoquer les anabolisants)
# Emballage de Traumeel S (produit pour combattre les traumastismes et tendinites)

As said Lance in one "Every second counts", it's just the usual material.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

List of products found:
http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/actualite/2000-uspostal-produits.htm

# 160 emballages vides de seringues
# Compresses teintées de sang
# Emballage de Noctamide (somnifère)
# Emballage de Zyloric (uricofreinateur)
# Emballage d'Esafosfina
# Emballage d'Epargriseovit (vitamines B12, PP et C, acide folique)
# Emballage de Ico Gamma
# Emballage de Lymphosole
# Emballage de S Amet 2000 (détoxiquant hépatique)
# Emballage d'Ipoazotal (acides aminés contre l'hyperammoniémie due à l'effort, intervenant aussi dans la sécrétion d'hormone de croissance)
# Emballage d'Ademetionine
# Emballage d'Apirogeno
# Emballage de Thioctacid (facilitateur du passage du glucose dans les cellules, souvent utilisé en culturisme)
# Emballage de Prefolic 50 (antianémique, détoxicant hépatique)
# Emballage d'Actovegin
# Emballage de Coltramyl (anticrampes que peuvent provoquer les anabolisants)
# Emballage de Traumeel S (produit pour combattre les traumastismes et tendinites)

As said Lance in one "Every second counts", it's just the usual material.

Interesting but not what I am looking for which would be an article or reports stating what was found and who found it, and why someone thought it was discredited at a later point.

 

[bianchigirl]

The investigation couldn't proceed as further samples that were requested were withheld. These were requested in light of the 'too clean' samples mentioned above.

Can't provide links as, like many stories uncomplimentary to Armstrong, they have disappeared

 

[CentralCaliBike]

The investigation couldn't proceed as further samples that were requested were withheld. These were requested in light of the 'too clean' samples mentioned above.

Can't provide links as, like many stories uncomplimentary to Armstrong, they have disappeared

I thought the LA fanboy had the market for conspiracy theories.

 

[python]

I thought the LA fanboy had the market for conspiracy theories.

poor reading skills CCB or just lazy? a link to the uci withholding blood samples from the french investigators was already provided above.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

poor reading skills CCB or just lazy? a link to the uci withholding blood samples from the french investigators was already provided above.

I guess the idea that I might have been joking passed you by - I looked at the link (it has been a couple of decades since I had french language classes) and found what appeared to be a list of information but nothing further - I was hoping for the background, who saw what, where, when, and why did the investigation stop? Also, what why did cyclingnews write that the allegations were later discredited and thrown out, on what basis were the allegations discredited?

 

[python]

I guess the idea that I might have been joking passed you by - I looked at the link (it has been a couple of decades since I had french language classes) and found what appeared to be a list of information but nothing further - I was hoping for the background, who saw what, where, when, and why did the investigation stop? Also, what why did cyclingnews write that the allegations were later discredited and thrown out, on what basis were the allegations discredited?

you can joke with tff not me, a notoriously poor recipient of lawyers humor. regarding the rest of your post, you are good at asking a lot of question and poor at reading because some have been answered already. btw it was in english not french so again you pants are down mister for all to see you're naked.

to spell it out for you, allegedly the investigation lacked information because the uci refused to allow examination of blood samples.