The latest Astana affair

[CentralCaliBike]

By using the word restoration you imply that there ever was "morality and fairplay" in the sport.

It never existed. There was cheating in cycling from the time racing began in the early 1900's.

How about using the word "introduced" to the sport...

How much do you know about human nature ? If there is a competition of any type, since the beginnings of history, the competitors have been looking for an edge. It is just human nature (not saying that it is right, just that it is).

If you are only willing to enter a sport that is dedicated to "morality and fair play" you are likely to be sitting on a couch somewhere.

 

[Murray]

How much do you know about human nature ? If there is a competition of any type, since the beginnings of history, the competitors have been looking for an edge. It is just human nature (not saying that it is right, just that it is).

If you are only willing to enter a sport that is dedicated to "morality and fair play" you are likely to be sitting on a couch somewhere.

You might have misinterpreted my post.... I completely agree with you.

I don't really get too worked up about doping because cheating will never end (in cycling or anything else). It certainly is entertaining... which really is the point of pro sports.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

I guess it would be better for cycling if there were not as many fans, especially in the United States.

personally i make a distinction between fans of cycling, and fans of Lance.

More of the former please, less of the latter.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

You might have misinterpreted my post.... I completely agree with you.

I don't really get too worked up about doping because cheating will never end (in cycling or anything else). It certainly is entertaining... which really is the point of pro sports.

Too early in the morning - I was trying to comment on the poster you were speaking of.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

personally i make a distinction between fans of cycling, and fans of Lance.

More of the former please, less of the latter.

So now a person has less value as a human being if they are a Lance fan - interesting argument.

 

[RhodriM]

You might have misinterpreted my post.... I completely agree with you.

I don't really get too worked up about doping because cheating will never end (in cycling or anything else). It certainly is entertaining... which really is the point of pro sports.

It depends on the amount and extent of the cheating.

English football fans still go on about Maradona's 'hand of god'. The difference is anyone watching that on TV could see he cheated. It was wrong but it wasn't dangerous and everyone knows he did it.

Doping is different because it is dangerous and doesn't just deceive a race official but a long list of riders, sponsors, fans, sporting bodies. There are clearly some who never get found out. Jumping on a train to the stage finish was deceptive too, but it was hardly endemic or anything approaching 'the norm'.

All cheating's relative. A handball in football is not the same as taking EPO.

 

[Race Radio]

I guess it would be better for cycling if there were not as many fans, especially in the United States.

At what cost, the long term health of the sport? Doping is OK if it adds 250,000 more Versus viewers?

 

[VeloCity]

So now a person has less value as a human being if they are a Lance fan - interesting argument.

I think the point was that Lance fans are not necessarily cycling fans. Look at the drop-off in viewer ratings for the Tour on Versus during the years Lance was riding and the three years he was retired. It's almost half; clearly the half who don't watch cycling when Lance isn't racing are Lance fans, not cycling fans.

In any case, do you really think cycling is any more popular in the US right now than it was pre-Lance? I certainly don't see it. Sure, everyone in the US knows who Lance Armstrong is, or what the Tour de France is, but ask them to name another cyclist or another bike race and you'll probably get blank stares. Personally, I don't think Lance has really had much impact in raising the popularity of the sport itself in the US at all. Awareness that it exists, yes, but I see no evidence that cycling is any more popular or has a larger fan base in the US than it did pre-Lance.

 

[Anonymous]

I think the point was that Lance fans are not necessarily cycling fans. Look at the drop-off in viewer ratings for the Tour on Versus during the years Lance was riding and the three years he was retired. It's almost half; clearly the half who don't watch cycling when Lance isn't racing are Lance fans, not cycling fans.

In any case, do you really think cycling is any more popular in the US right now than it was pre-Lance? I certainly don't see it. Sure, everyone in the US knows who Lance Armstrong is, or what the Tour de France is, but ask them to name another cyclist or another bike race and you'll probably get blank stares. Personally, I don't think Lance has really had much impact in raising the popularity of the sport itself in the US at all. Awareness that it exists, yes, but I see no evidence that cycling is any more popular or has a larger fan base in the US than it did pre-Lance.

All of american knows lance is the man. He has increased the cycling popularity by around 102%

I will ask some of the Biavians if they know who Sir Lance Armstrong is. Get back with the results.

 

[pmcg76]

I think the point was that Lance fans are not necessarily cycling fans. Look at the drop-off in viewer ratings for the Tour on Versus during the years Lance was riding and the three years he was retired. It's almost half; clearly the half who don't watch cycling when Lance isn't racing are Lance fans, not cycling fans.

In any case, do you really think cycling is any more popular in the US right now than it was pre-Lance? I certainly don't see it. Sure, everyone in the US knows who Lance Armstrong is, or what the Tour de France is, but ask them to name another cyclist or another bike race and you'll probably get blank stares. Personally, I don't think Lance has really had much impact in raising the popularity of the sport itself in the US at all. Awareness that it exists, yes, but I see no evidence that cycling is any more popular or has a larger fan base in the US than it did pre-Lance.

Agreed, just look at the Lance apologists on this forum, Oldnell, Sprocket, Progressor, Speedway, JPMcMahon. Christ, there was 10million of them in July and they all dissappeared again right after. They rarely contribute to any threads other than Lance threads and I use the word 'contribute' loosely because all they usually do is moan about the obvious general cycling fans who do not like Lance. I challenged one to why they didnt post in the Vuelta or P-T threads. Response, "the end of season is watered down and not that interesting". Yes a true cycling fan there.

Contrast this with guys like Race Radio, TFF, Mellow Yello, Dr.Maserati and countless other supposed 'haters' who contribute to the vast majority of threads regardless of content. To me these guys are the true cycling fans and it just so happens that the majority of general cycling fans do not like Lance. Coincidence, I think not.

Yes, I think Lance did some good for cycling in the US but we have pointed this out many times, Ullrich had a bigger effect in Germany, Herrera, Parra, Colombia 80s, Kelly, Roche, Ireland 80s, the Aussies, last 10 years.

Lance is know worldwide the way Tiger Woods, Federer, Nadal are known by the general public but none of these sports have taken over the world yet. I know who Muhammed Ali is but would never ever, ever have considered taking up boxing. For example Lance is known here in Ireland and was attracted to increase the visibility of the Tour of Ireland but it is more likely that the results of Roche, Deignan and Martin will be a bigger inspiration to people in Ireland.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

At what cost, the long term health of the sport? Doping is OK if it adds 250,000 more Versus viewers?

I think it has been pointed out here over and over from people on both sides of this issues (and a few of us in the middle) that as long as there is competition there will be riders looking to cheat (otherwise we would teach them not to and not worry about testing them after we are certain that they will do what is good for them).

 

[Race Radio]

I think it has been pointed out here over and over from people on both sides of this issues (and a few of us in the middle) that as long as there is competition there will be riders looking to cheat (otherwise we would teach them not to and not worry about testing them after we are certain that they will do what is good for them).

I am glad that you have finally come to your senses and admitted Armstrong is a doper.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I am glad that you have finally come to your senses and admitted Armstrong is a doper.

I have been saying for quite awhile that it seems likely he used in 1999 - I felt years ago that the way he worded a particular denial was a tacit admission to using either for training or prior to the first win. I certainly would not jump on those who do not have the same opinion. I have also stated that I personally am not aware of any evidence of a conspiracy - although I am interested in how it would be possible to spike the samples. I do not believe a person who used one year necessarily used at a later date without more evidence.

Someone used the analogy of a methamphetamine addict - not sure that EPO has addictive qualities (other than giving you a better chance of winning), but I do not think I could ever convince a jury that if someone used in the past they must have used during a particular three week period a year later without having some type of test result, admission, or witness to the use.

There is one exception with regards to circumstantial evidence, if there was a reliable method of identifying symptoms - in meth use it would be dilated pupils, high heart rate, constant body movement and a much faster internal clock, you might be able to persuade a jury.

I figure this will lead to LAs performance in the subsequent years and that is a reason I also have no problem with individuals holding to the belief that LA was, is and always will be a doper - it just does not convince me, certainly not enough to attack those who have looked at the evidence and believe otherwise. Personally, I am not convinced he did post 1999 and could be swayed to believe he might have been clean in 1999 if there were evidence of a conspiracy (which there is not at this point).

 

[Dr. Maserati]

What does it matter if he doped throughout the rest of his career?

If he had been sanctioned in 99 he would have sat out the 2000 & 2001 season - Rock Racing were not invented yet so he might have struggled to get a team.

You and your son would probably riding around on Lemonds.

 

[Race Radio]

I have been saying for quite awhile that it seems likely he used in 1999 - I felt years ago that the way he worded a particular denial was a tacit admission to using either for training or prior to the first win. I certainly would not jump on those who do not have the same opinion. I have also stated that I personally am not aware of any evidence of a conspiracy - although I am interested in how it would be possible to spike the samples. I do not believe a person who used one year necessarily used at a later date without more evidence.

Someone used the analogy of a methamphetamine addict - not sure that EPO has addictive qualities (other than giving you a better chance of winning), but I do not think I could ever convince a jury that if someone used in the past they must have used during a particular three week period a year later without having some type of test result, admission, or witness to the use.

There is one exception with regards to circumstantial evidence, if there was a reliable method of identifying symptoms - in meth use it would be dilated pupils, high heart rate, constant body movement and a much faster internal clock, you might be able to persuade a jury.

I figure this will lead to LAs performance in the subsequent years and that is a reason I also have no problem with individuals holding to the belief that LA was, is and always will be a doper - it just does not convince me, certainly not enough to attack those who have looked at the evidence and believe otherwise. Personally, I am not convinced he did post 1999 and could be swayed to believe he might have been clean in 1999 if there were evidence of a conspiracy (which there is not at this point).

So the bags of dope, insulin, and the 160 syringes that team staff drove two hours out of their way in an unmarked car to dump....what was that for?

The ability to increase Hct from 38 to 48.5, how does that come about?

Has anyone ever received a DUI without a Breathalyzer?

 

[CentralCaliBike]

What does it matter if he doped throughout the rest of his career?

If he had been sanctioned in 99 he would have sat out the 2000 & 2001 season - Rock Racing were not invented yet so he might have struggled to get a team.

You and your son would probably riding around on Lemonds.

I have been working on a friend's Lemond - not a fan (even though they were manufactured by Trek). Of course, if the price was right ...

 

[CentralCaliBike]

So the bags of dope, insulin, and the 160 syringes that team staff drove two hours out of their way in an unmarked car to dump....what was that for?

The ability to increase Hct from 38 to 48.5, how does that come about?

Has anyone ever received a DUI without a Breathalyzer?

DUI - yes, of course the jury often wants to see a video of the person's inability to walk a straight line (or at least get the feeling he/she was very drunk from the testimony of a trained observer).

I am willing to review an article or two about the dope bags, I have seen them mentioned a few times on the site but there seems to be a difference of opinion about how much of this can be tied to the team.

 

[Ferminal]

DUI - yes, of course the jury often wants to see a video of the person's inability to walk a straight line (or at least get the feeling he/she was very drunk from the testimony of a trained observer).

I am willing to review an article or two about the dope bags, I have seen them mentioned a few times on the site but there seems to be a difference of opinion about how much of this can be tied to the team.

A jury for DUI cases in the US?

 

[CentralCaliBike]

A jury for DUI cases in the US?

Yes - at least in California. Some states will not give you a jury trial if you are facing less than six months in jail (common maximum for a first offense DUI), but California is not one of them - if you are facing any jail time at all, you are entitled to a jury trial in this state.

 

[sherer]

So the bags of dope, insulin, and the 160 syringes that team staff drove two hours out of their way in an unmarked car to dump....what was that for?

The ability to increase Hct from 38 to 48.5, how does that come about?

Has anyone ever received a DUI without a Breathalyzer?

is there any proof any of the above happened ? not saying it didn't but a few links to backk up the claims wouldn't go amiss

 

[RhodriM]

I think the point was that Lance fans are not necessarily cycling fans. Look at the drop-off in viewer ratings for the Tour on Versus during the years Lance was riding and the three years he was retired. It's almost half; clearly the half who don't watch cycling when Lance isn't racing are Lance fans, not cycling fans.

In any case, do you really think cycling is any more popular in the US right now than it was pre-Lance? I certainly don't see it. Sure, everyone in the US knows who Lance Armstrong is, or what the Tour de France is, but ask them to name another cyclist or another bike race and you'll probably get blank stares. Personally, I don't think Lance has really had much impact in raising the popularity of the sport itself in the US at all. Awareness that it exists, yes, but I see no evidence that cycling is any more popular or has a larger fan base in the US than it did pre-Lance.

I would imagine more people buy expensive bikes, whether they actually follow the sport outside of LA is debatable.

Apparently, cycling is the new golf. Urgh.

 

[Race Radio]

DUI - yes, of course the jury often wants to see a video of the person's inability to walk a straight line (or at least get the feeling he/she was very drunk from the testimony of a trained observer).

I am willing to review an article or two about the dope bags, I have seen them mentioned a few times on the site but there seems to be a difference of opinion about how much of this can be tied to the team.

There is zero "difference of Opinion" That the dumping was done by the team.

The bags were dumped by Armstrong's personal Chiropractor, Jeff Spencer. Armstrong called Spencer the most important person on the support staff. French TV showed video of them driving 2 hours out of their way and dumping the bags.

 

[sherer]

There is zero "difference of Opinion" That the dumping was done by the team.

The bags were dumped by Armstrong's personal Chiropractor, Jeff Spencer. Armstrong called Spencer the most important person on the support staff. French TV showed video of them driving 2 hours out of their way and dumping the bags.

is there a link to this video on youtube ?

So they are carefull enough to drive 2 hours away to dump this stuff but then stupid enough to let someone film it

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralCaliBike [actually posed by VeloCity] View Post
I think the point was that Lance fans are not necessarily cycling fans. Look at the drop-off in viewer ratings for the Tour on Versus during the years Lance was riding and the three years he was retired. It's almost half; clearly the half who don't watch cycling when Lance isn't racing are Lance fans, not cycling fans.

In any case, do you really think cycling is any more popular in the US right now than it was pre-Lance? I certainly don't see it. Sure, everyone in the US knows who Lance Armstrong is, or what the Tour de France is, but ask them to name another cyclist or another bike race and you'll probably get blank stares. Personally, I don't think Lance has really had much impact in raising the popularity of the sport itself in the US at all. Awareness that it exists, yes, but I see no evidence that cycling is any more popular or has a larger fan base in the US than it did pre-Lance.

I would imagine more people buy expensive bikes, whether they actually follow the sport outside of LA is debatable.

Apparently, cycling is the new golf. Urgh.

I keep seeing the first quote attributed to myself - the actual author is VeloCity.

 

[Race Radio]

is there any proof any of the above happened ? not saying it didn't but a few links to backk up the claims wouldn't go amiss

As I wrote, yes TV-3 showed video of Jeff Spencer & Luis Del Moral (Team doctor) dumped medical waste bags of 160 spent sryinges, IV equipment,Actovegin (Cow Blood) TV-3, swabs and Blood bags into a dumspter. (enough for 4-5 days of the 4-6 daily injections for nine riders)

The claim of being able to increase Hct from 38 to 48.5 by using an oxygen tent was made by Armstrong on Larry King Live. This is impossible and unsupported by any of the many studies on altitude training. Armstrong's Hct was consistently in the upper 40's during the Tour.