The Lowe Down on Vaughters (aka Knight of the Ethical Objectivity round table)

[JMBeaushrimp]

That is a point I made above. At no time has Lowe alleged that he received anything other than ordinary testing from Moral. This is not, "I didn't inhale." It is, "The joint was actually regular tobacco." After Fuentes was busted, Moral may have decided that the legal landscape in Spain had changed and it was a good time to go legit.

I agree. But what about White taking the hit? Was he going elsewhere, and allowed mangement to 'can' him as a PR move? That move does add some weight to JV's hammer in terms of holding riders to contracts. Whitey did have a new gig awfully quick...

 

[Winterfold]

see what Robert Fisk has to day on our Fox News era of pundrity, talking heads, and the "Two Sides BS narrative"

The two sides narrative suits Fisk well enough when his narrative is not the grand narrative

Back OT, now even more so looks like JV took his eye off the ball to me, or is just too much of an innocent/naif/nice guy for the game he's in.

Do we care? Gladiators! Competition! Men riding each other into the dirt on huge mountains! That's what we want to see. Do we care?

 

[Ferminal]

I agree. But what about White taking the hit? Was he going elsewhere, and allowed mangement to 'can' him as a PR move? That move does add some weight to JV's hammer in terms of holding riders to contracts. Whitey did have a new gig awfully quick...

White was always going to Green Edge at the end of the season, getting rid of him reduced his contact with Garmin's Aus stars who are likely to move.

I think the dots on Matthew are all a bit easy to connect. He knows (very well?) who Del Moral is, he sent a struggling rider to him, even if we accept it was just for "testing", what's to say he hasn't referred others.

 

[skidmark]

This is a fascinating discussion. My two cents (as someone reading it at face value and having no inside knowledge whatsoever):

If the biggest dirt one can draw on Vaughters is that he hurt a rider's feelings by not responding to him, was petty and personal about a contract dispute, and then pulled out both PR and press-release barrels when the rider and his representatives sent ambiguous emails that could have been interpreted as blackmail, he comes out looking better than most people involved with professional cycling.

He seems like he genuinely overlooked the name of De Moral and didn't really care about Lowe, which is not great. He seems like he was kind of a distant jerk when it came to settling the contract, or at least he let his representatives deal with it and when he saw an aspect of it that he didn't like (the perceived blackmail), he jumped on it somewhat disproportionately. He seems a bit obsessed with keeping the good name of his team in the press, with just enough truth and just enough spin to slide by, which is understandable from someone in his position. But he doesn't, from anything in this exchange, seem to be covering up any enormous lie about what the team is about; in fact, Lowe's emails seem to reinforce this as they basically read 'I, as a rider on your team, wouldn't expect to be sent to Del Moral' and JV's response reads 'wait, what? You got sent to Del Moral? wtf?'

Regardless of how one feels about the interpersonal angle of this, it really doesn't seem to be blowing the lid off of anything.

 

[unsheath]

He seems like he genuinely overlooked the name of De Moral and didn't really care about Lowe, which is not great.
.

Vaughters missing The Good Dr's Letterhead.. Possible. Vaughters and Steffen both missing the letterhead. Unlikely..

Seems a pretty convenient stance for Garmin to take.

 

[webvan]

Not to mention Lowe's comment that "Both you and I know I had a fallout with Whitey about that". Why would he write that if JV hadn't been in the loop, also the "I kept my end of the deal to stay quiet about it". Could have been a "deal" with just White but it seems unlikely Lowe wouldn't have gone to JV when he found out who Del Moral was.

 

[BroDeal]

Vaughters missing The Good Dr's Letterhead.. Possible. Vaughters and Steffen both missing the letterhead. Unlikely..

What does the good doctor's letterhead look like? Does it say Institute of Sports Medicine of Valencia (in Spanish) with Del Moral's signature scrawled somewhere on the form? Do we know if Lowe actually saw Del Moral? Del Moral is the director of the institute. Does he do the testing himself or is it done by a subordinate?

 

[BroDeal]

Not to mention Lowe's comment that "Both you and I know I had a fallout with Whitey about that". Why would he write that if JV hadn't been in the loop, also the "I kept my end of the deal to stay quiet about it". Could have been a "deal" with just White but it seems unlikely Lowe wouldn't have gone to JV when he found out who Del Moral was.

The problem with those e-mails is that they were written after the contract dispute began, possibly with advice from Hardie. Some of what was written looks like posturing. For example there is the following line.

"It was very disappointing when team management sent me to such a questionable doctor for unknown means of preparation, less than 18 months into my time with the team."

That reads like it was written with the intention of releasing it to the press or using it in court.

 

[webvan]

Yes that doesn't sound very spontaneous, the "both you and I know, etc..." seems more plausible to me. What's curious is that they don't play that angle later on...why would they be making it up though, puzzling...

 

[Ferminal]

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2011/trent-lowe

 

[Ferminal]

I suppose the reason I brought Del Moral up is it totally goes against the team, their ethics. I didn't feel that I was treated in the manner that the team sold itself by. And if Jonathan's going to hold me to the letter of the contract, to bring that up, to say there was an issue there, then, I just don't think that was right.

Seems like a bit of a thin explaination.

I sent my blood results to a doctor/ sport physiologist after their opinion on why I was so fatigued, that year. He noticed Del Moral’s name on the results and hesitated working with me. I informed him of the circumstances I had seen him under and he understood that there was nothing suspicious going on.

At least someone noticed it!

I feel this is complex, there was a discrepancies in our goals and communication broke down a bit. I don’t hold any ill will towards Whitey. We just don’t see the world in the same way.

Ok, what do we think that means?

AS: Getting back to Slipstream, I think things changed for Vaughters when Paul Kimmage became aware of all this. Did you have anything to do with Kimmage finding out about this?

TL: Absolutely not, I don't know how he found out about it, still to this day. I heard those things as well. Kimmage would be the guy to ask that.

AS: I've asked him, he won't say.

This is the first time I've heard Kimmage mentioned in relation to this whole saga... did I miss something?

It seems Kimmage became aware sometime in January, about White-Lowe-Del Moral. So this could have been a reason for "Whitey" getting the chop.

Seems like there is a legal case being prepared, interesting to see where that goes.

Lowe briefly talks about Hardie, and a plan to increase cyclists' voice in some sort of union arrangement.

No mention of JV knowing about Del Moral prior to January, seems fairly obvious that JV didn't know. But Lowe mentions wanting to talk about it. I wonder if anyone else in the team noticed the break down of the relationship between White-Lowe... probably not as he wasn't racing and no one was talking to him.

 

[BroDeal]

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2011/trent-lowe

It looks to me like a lot of this is Lowe regurgitating what Hardie has told him.

The side venture about a riders' union sounds ill-advised. Lowe should be concentrating on resolving his own dispute with Slipstream, not building it into a larger issue. Unnecessarily bringing in Del Moral already made his dispute more problematic. I cannot shake the feeling that Hardie sees this as an opportunity to push an agenda and Lowe is being used as a pawn.

Lowe's assertion that he did not want the Del Moral stuff to become public seems less that honest. He was the one threatening to release it. He is inverting the timeline by saying that the information he wanted to release was information to correct Slipstream press releases; but at the time he was making the threats, I don't think there was anything that needed to be corrected. The press releases came after Hardie began talking about 500K euros.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

It looks to me like a lot of this is Lowe regurgitating what Hardie has told him.

The side venture about a riders' union sounds ill-advised. Lowe should be concentrating on resolving his own dispute with Slipstream, not building it into a larger issue. Unnecessarily bringing in Del Moral already made his dispute more problematic. I cannot shake the feeling that Hardie sees this as an opportunity to push an agenda and Lowe is being used as a pawn.

Lowe's assertion that he did not want the Del Moral stuff to become public seems less that honest. He was the one threatening to release it. He is inverting the timeline by saying that the information he wanted to release was information to correct Slipstream press releases; but at the time he was making the threats, I don't think there was anything that needed to be corrected. The press releases came after Hardie began talking about 500K euros.

That timing seems to lend credibility to JV's side of things. Tempest in a teapot, anyone?

 

[alanshearer]

That timing seems to lend credibility to JV's side of things. Tempest in a teapot, anyone?

Seems to me that Lowe has a pretty good argument on his contract -- that he's entitled to any bonuses he may have earned as well as wages through December 31, 2010. And it seems like Vaughters was being a bit of a douche by denying him his wages.

Everything else is overblown, and I think Hardie may have actually hurt Lowe's interests by pushing all the other crap.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Seems to me that Lowe has a pretty good argument on his contract -- that he's entitled to any bonuses he may have earned as well as wages through December 31, 2010. And it seems like Vaughters was being a bit of a douche by denying him his wages.

Everything else is overblown, and I think Hardie may have actually hurt Lowe's interests by pushing all the other crap.

Yup........

 

[131313]

Seems to me that Lowe has a pretty good argument on his contract -- that he's entitled to any bonuses he may have earned as well as wages through December 31, 2010. And it seems like Vaughters was being a bit of a douche by denying him his wages.

Everything else is overblown, and I think Hardie may have actually hurt Lowe's interests by pushing all the other crap.

I agree with the above, completely. Thing is, I understand why they were looking to not pay him; he was fat, sick and not racing. Still, they just should have bitten the bullet and paid him, just like they keep paying Danielson.

One thing that really falls pretty flat to me is Lowe's contention that "they made him ride the Tour even though he was in poor health". Since I personally know 2 guys who were on the Tour bubble that year and how competitive it is to get on the team, I have to believe if there was any inclination that he was sick, he wouldn't have gone. I simply don't buy that line for a second. Guys with big names will get taken to the tour because of their names even if they're less than 100%. Lowe simply isn't one of those riders.

 

[Race Radio]

I agree with the above, completely. Thing is, I understand why they were looking to not pay him; he was fat, sick and not racing. Still, they just should have bitten the bullet and paid him, just like they keep paying Danielson.

One thing that really falls pretty flat to me is Lowe's contention that "they made him ride the Tour even though he was in poor health". Since I personally know 2 guys who were on the Tour bubble that year and how competitive it is to get on the team, I have to believe if there was any inclination that he was sick, he wouldn't have gone. I simply don't buy that line for a second. Guys with big names will get taken to the tour because of their names even if they're less than 100%. Lowe simply isn't one of those riders.

Ha!

To be fair Tom was top 10 of the Vuelta last year.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Ha!

To be fair Tom was top 10 of the Vuelta last year.

Yeah it was an amazing turnaround for a guy who usually only has time to pimp the cafe slow roast or beat feat to the portajon.

 

[131313]

Ha!

To be fair Tom was top 10 of the Vuelta last year.

Man, that's right. I almost forgot!

I guess this is gonna be his year.....

 

[the delgados]

I agree with the above, completely. Thing is, I understand why they were looking to not pay him; he was fat, sick and not racing. Still, they just should have bitten the bullet and paid him, just like they keep paying Danielson.

This episode only serves to reinforce the need for a riders' union.

Managers shouldn't be able to make arbitrary decisions to withold payment because so and so is "fat" and or sick. A contract is a contract.

What kind of message does that send to the other riders? And what lengths will they go to in order to prevent the same thing happening to them?

To me, JV seems hypocritical.

 

[blackcat]

seems or IZ?

Nah, some of the big shotz on Garmin were none too pleasant to Lowe in his exit and blaming Whitey's departure on him! lol. Dont go head to head in a field sprint knocking elbows with these munchkins trent, cos you might end up bighting the aphalt like Daz Impey.

 

[BroDeal]

Nah, some of the big shotz on Garmin were none too pleasant to Lowe in his exit and blaming Whitey's departure on him! lol. Dont go head to head in a field sprint knocking elbows with these munchkins trent, cos you might end up bighting the aphalt like Daz Impey.

As soon as Lowe began blaming management for sending him to Del Moral, Slipstream was put into a position where management needed to divorce itself from White. The fallout was pretty predictable. Either Slipstream would pay to keep Lowe quiet or make everything public and do damage control. If Hardie had not been asking for a ridiculous sum of money then maybe Slipstream could have stopped short of letting White go, but with potential court action they needed to take a hardline. Lowe bringing the unrelated Del Moral matter into his contract dispute resulted in White getting fired. On top of that, Hardie's "facts" release went hard on White, so much so that it left me wondering why they were knifing White, an important and respected member of a very small cycling community that Lowe needs to be part of if he wants to rebuild his career, in the back so vigorously.

One good thing could come out of this. White could be deposed and asked about what Del Moral did on Postal. That would be good for a laugh. I don't see Vaughters submitting himself to deposition in Australia, so we won't get any answers from him. Of course, the whole thing will probably settle before that.

 

[BroDeal]

Managers shouldn't be able to make arbitrary decisions to withold payment because so and so is "fat" and or sick. A contract is a contract.

What kind of message does that send to the other riders?

It keeps them from eating Twinkies and Doritos for half their contract.

And what lengths will they go to in order to prevent the same thing happening to them?

Clenbuterol.

 

[blackcat]

Bro, u my favorite poster, but you got this all @ss backwards.

 

[BroDeal]

Bro, u my favorite poster, but you got this all @ss backwards.

I'm just calling it like I see it. I don't trust JV. I wish this was something more substantial, but all I see a stupid slip-up being blown out of proportion so that it can be used as leverage in a contract dispute. Unless Lowe comes forward and says that Del Moral offered him drugs or that White sent him to Del Moral to be put on a program then there is not any substance. Lowe telling us how Vande Velde and Wigans transformed themselves into GT riders is what I want to hear.