Teams & Riders The "MVP" Mathieu Van der Poel Road Discussion Thread

[Didinho]

I could see UAE and Jumbo making the race hard on some of those medium mountain stages so it might be unrealistic to think the early breaks will make it. If he is always jumping in breaks that get caught that will wear him down and take away some of his explosiveness, no? But I don’t think I know his stage race history well enough to know for sure.

Yes offcourse he will have to manage his efforts. But the last years the break is often very big so you don't waste much energy there if all teams are represent. Jumbo sent a lot of guys in front last year so UAE will copy that. But it's Mathieu, even in the Giro with bad legs he spent to much time in the wind. Just wanna see him with a good prep there, win some stages and be ready for the Worlds. That's his main goal, apart from finishing the Tour.

 

[senna6541]

This is the problem with a GT's for guys like MVDP. Of course you want to see him race as much as possible as a fan, but at the end of the day, unless it is something truly unique and spectacular like him winning yellow for his Paps, stage wins don't count for much, and most days it's JRA and DNC. Arriving in Glasgow at 100% is all the matters. And then on to the MTB in Sept and Oct. Not a bad year when you get CX WC, 1st SR, 2nd RVV, 1st PR, Road World Champion, and 2 or 3 World Cup MTB wins including a couple over here in North America.

 

[dazaau]

This is the problem with a GT's for guys like MVDP. Of course you want to see him race as much as possible as a fan, but at the end of the day, unless it is something truly unique and spectacular like him winning yellow for his Paps, stage wins don't count for much, and most days it's JRA and DNC. Arriving in Glasgow at 100% is all the matters. And then on to the MTB in Sept and Oct. Not a bad year when you get CX WC, 1st SR, 2nd RVV, 1st PR, Road World Champion, and 2 or 3 World Cup MTB wins including a couple over here in North America.

Strangely I agree with this.

 

[frisenfruitig]

The only thing I disagree with is that stage wins don't count for much. Of course it's not the same as winning a monument or WC but compared to the rest of the calendar it doesn't get much bigger than the TDF. Like it or not, it is the biggest race of the year.

 

[Blanco]

The only thing I disagree with is that stage wins don't count for much. Of course it's not the same as winning a monument or WC but compared to the rest of the calendar it doesn't get much bigger than the TDF. Like it or not, it is the biggest race of the year.

Worlds
Olympics
Monuments
Strade, GW, E3, Amstel, Fleche, San Sebastian
all easily ahead of TDF stages.

 

[Nick2413]

Worlds
Olympics
Monuments
Strade, GW, E3, Amstel, Fleche, San Sebastian
all easily ahead of TDF stages.

Arguably the ones on that last line are comparable to certain TDF stages, but in the grand scheme sure. The thing about GTs is the sprint stages are the only ones everyone is going for, out of those who would be going for that stage if it were a single day race.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

I would say that only an Alpe d'Huez stage win can compare to classics like Strade an Amstel.
Yet, if Matheiu can ride with some sense the Tour should help him a lot for Worlds.

 

[Netserk]

I don't know, I would put greater emphasis on hypothetical Flèche victories over the actual Tour stage victories on Alpe d'Huez and Tourmalet by Pinot.

Vingegaard's victory on Granon was obviously a different level (likewise his win on Hautacam), but that stems from the GC impact.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

I guess it dipends on how you obtain the win. Pantani wins on Alpe where iconic, because it destroyed the field, Pinot won from the break and in a sprint.
I agree on the fact that Vingegaard win were impressive, but as you said, things are a bit different for non GC contenders, as their wins have zero implication in the bigger picture

 

[DaLong]

I guess it's all up for debate but, as a classics fan, I consider TdF stages to be quite prestigious. Every great has a handful of them and if he doesn't get 5+ I would consider it a gap in his palmares. Don't care if it's a sprint or a mountain, stages are stages IMO. Classics are better of course, but not only are TdF stages pretigious they also appeal to the American casual viewer, which like it or not, they provide a lot of media/bike revenue and are a large part of why cycling has the funds to pay the riders. I hope to see MvdP get between 5 and 10 by the time he's done.

 

[jmdirt]

Is there anyone on a cycling forum who doesn't know this? Probably no need to type it anymore.

"Riding classics and performing well at a GT are 2 very different things."

 

[Netserk]

I guess it dipends on how you obtain the win. Pantani wins on Alpe where iconic, because it destroyed the field, Pinot won from the break and in a sprint.
I agree on the fact that Vingegaard win were impressive, but as you said, things are a bit different for non GC contenders, as their wins have zero implication in the bigger picture

Another way to think about the value of a stage win is when the break "takes it away".

How much would Quintana's plamarès be improved in the counterfactual where no break gets away between Croix-de-Fer and Alpe d'Huez in 2015? He still distances Froome by the same margin and thus finishes 2nd in GC, but he actually wins the stage. I think most of the value of such a stage win was already present at his actual ride to 2nd on the stage. So less of an improvement compared to winning Milano - Torino, I think.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

Of course, a great performance nontheless. Some of the values of winning on iconic climbs stands from the fact that pure climbers can rarely have a shot at winning big classic, so these wins stand out in their palmares. For someone like Pogacar, even an iconic stage won't ever compare to RVV and the same can be said for VdP, palmares wise. Still, some stage wins will form part of their legacy, like Merckx on Tre Cime di Lavaredo or Coppi in the '49 Cuneo-Pinerolo. I thinck VdP win on Mur the Bretagne or Vinge win on Granon will remain in our memory for a long time.

 

[Wyndbrook]

This is the problem with a GT's for guys like MVDP. Of course you want to see him race as much as possible as a fan, but at the end of the day, unless it is something truly unique and spectacular like him winning yellow for his Paps, stage wins don't count for much, and most days it's JRA and DNC. Arriving in Glasgow at 100% is all the matters. And then on to the MTB in Sept and Oct. Not a bad year when you get CX WC, 1st SR, 2nd RVV, 1st PR, Road World Champion, and 2 or 3 World Cup MTB wins including a couple over here in North America.

My maths are not great, but I don't think riding a couple of world cups will be enough to get Olympic qualification. The Dutch are currently so low in the rankings.
He needs to ride the Glasgow MTB worlds which has automatic Olympic qualification for first and second.

 

[Ricco']

My maths are not great, but I don't think riding a couple of world cups will be enough to get Olympic qualification. The Dutch are currently so low in the rankings.
He needs to ride the Glasgow MTB worlds which has automatic Olympic qualification for first and second.

Milan Vader will ride Nové Mesto so they can start to gain some points.

I don't think the first and second in Glasgow have automatic qualification. The first and second nations there, who are not qualificated by ranking, will get a place, which should open Netherlands chances of getting a spot even with a top-20 or so at the World Championships, because most of the nations who will get the top individual results will be qualified by ranking.

That's how Portugal won a place in the women's XCO in Tokyo, by virtue of a 16th or 24th place in the Women's U23 World Championship, being the best placed country not qualified by ranking.

 

[Red Rick]

I don't know, I would put greater emphasis on hypothetical Flèche victories over the actual Tour stage victories on Alpe d'Huez and Tourmalet by Pinot.

Vingegaard's victory on Granon was obviously a different level (likewise his win on Hautacam), but that stems from the GC impact.

I think especially when talking about stage wins there's often attempts to make one stage win worth much more than the other, when it really shouldn't.

Some wins can simply be extremely satisfying to watch without it needing to enhance a riders palmares by that much.

 

[Axel Hangleck]

His Top 10 ranking from CX/Road gets him a 4th row start for any XCO World Cups he rides, however, for the Worlds it's based on UCI World ranking...he'd likely be dead last...100+ ahead of him. Good luck with that.

500 points for a World title. 250 for a XCO World Cup win. The Dutch are currently on 839 points in 31st place.

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[SafeBet]

I think especially when talking about stage wins there's often attempts to make one stage win worth much more than the other, when it really shouldn't.

Some wins can simply be extremely satisfying to watch without it needing to enhance a riders palmares by that much.

It also depends a lot on the specific rider's palmares.
I mean, Houle's stage win in the 2022 TdF will define his career as a rider, while it would be quickly neglected in VdP's palmares.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

while not big in stage wins in GT's yet, he did hold the leaders jersey in his first TDF for a week and in the Giro as well. That is worth something as well.

 

[Blanco]

while not big in stage wins in GT's yet, he did hold the leaders jersey in his first TDF for a week and in the Giro as well. That is worth something as well.

Yeah it's a nice feat, but for classics monster like Van Der Poel it's really not such big deal.

 

[Bolder]

Yeah it's a nice feat, but for classics monster like Van Der Poel it's really not such big deal.

His win on mur de Bretagne was insane.

 

[Sciatic]

I think especially when talking about stage wins there's often attempts to make one stage win worth much more than the other, when it really shouldn't.

Some wins can simply be extremely satisfying to watch without it needing to enhance a riders palmares by that much.

I could argue that on occasion some GC stages do matter more than others—if they flip the script of the entire race, Andy on Galibier for example. But the rare example does not prove a point.

 

[Blanco]

There are memorable stages, of course, legendary ones. They stand the test of time and stay in the memory of cycling fans forever. But the feat itself isn't that someone won that stage, but how he won it. That's make it so legendary. I mean there were Alpe D'Huez and Ventoux stages that weren't so great, not every win there is stuff of legends. Stages itself don't carry the same weight as big one day races, and the only way they could come close or match them is when they are won in spectacular manner.

 

[Blanco]

His win on mur de Bretagne was insane.

Yes it was, I still have goosebumps when I remember that stage. But in spite of that all of his big one day wins (Ronde, Roubaix, San Remo, Amstel and Strade) carries more weight and importance.

 

[senna6541]

I will say it's pretty cool watching him lead out Philipsen. The speed he was carrying in and out of corners during the technical final at TA stage 7 was pretty wild. And the beauty of Philipsen is that he finishes the job and then pays it back big time at PR.