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Teams & Riders The official Egan Bernal is the new Egan Bernal thread

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Froome

Froome

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Elos Anjos said:
Bernal said he is back and beyond his best "numbers".

I'll ignore that the universal gauge today of any rider's self-image seems to be a set of numbers and not his confidence or "feelings". That would be a totally different discussion that not many forum users could fathom, even less comprehend.

What we know is that Bernal won a Giro and a Tour. If indeed he is "back", he would have to be next to Pogacar, Vingo and Roglic. Unless the peloton has increased its level so much that his numbers are therefore meaningless for a top ten or a podium.

The point is that if we take Bernal's talent and career and his assertion that he is back to his best numbers, if he does not perform in the Tour that can only mean:

1) we was lucky in his GT endeavours;
2) assessing performances based exclusively in numbers is flawed;
3) he is indeed back to his best level but that does not suffice anymore because what counts is to stay competitive; one year out means forever out (ergo, Quintana); Bernal would have to stay active during the past three years in order to keep in touch with the ever growing level of the peleton; if that is the case, tough luck on Vingo, he might never be back to his "best";
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No, he doesn't have to be next to Pogacar, Vingegaard and Roglic. Thomas also won the Tour and it doesn't mean he is next to them.

Bernal benefited from a weak field to win the Tour. Main rivals were, Kruijswijk, buchmann and Alaphilippe.

Furthermore, not even Roglic is next to Vingegaard and Pogacar at the moment, but certainly he is above the king of alto de foia daniel martinez, the guy who can do monster climbing perfomances!
 
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Sciatic

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Elos Anjos said:
Bernal said he is back and beyond his best "numbers".

I'll ignore that the universal gauge today of any rider's self-image seems to be a set of numbers and not his confidence or "feelings". That would be a totally different discussion that not many forum users could fathom, even less comprehend.

What we know is that Bernal won a Giro and a Tour. If indeed he is "back", he would have to be next to Pogacar, Vingo and Roglic. Unless the peloton has increased its level so much that his numbers are therefore meaningless for a top ten or a podium.

The point is that if we take Bernal's talent and career and his assertion that he is back to his best numbers, if he does not perform in the Tour that can only mean:

1) we was lucky in his GT endeavours;
2) assessing performances based exclusively in numbers is flawed;
3) he is indeed back to his best level but that does not suffice anymore because what counts is to stay competitive; one year out means forever out (ergo, Quintana); Bernal would have to stay active during the past three years in order to keep in touch with the ever growing level of the peleton; if that is the case, tough luck on Vingo, he might never be back to his "best";
Click to expand...
Maybe when all these riders talk about reaching their “best numbers” ever, the number they’re referencing is their age. ;)
 
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Red Rick

Red Rick

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Elos Anjos said:
Bernal said he is back and beyond his best "numbers".

I'll ignore that the universal gauge today of any rider's self-image seems to be a set of numbers and not his confidence or "feelings". That would be a totally different discussion that not many forum users could fathom, even less comprehend.

What we know is that Bernal won a Giro and a Tour. If indeed he is "back", he would have to be next to Pogacar, Vingo and Roglic. Unless the peloton has increased its level so much that his numbers are therefore meaningless for a top ten or a podium.

The point is that if we take Bernal's talent and career and his assertion that he is back to his best numbers, if he does not perform in the Tour that can only mean:

1) we was lucky in his GT endeavours;
2) assessing performances based exclusively in numbers is flawed;
3) he is indeed back to his best level but that does not suffice anymore because what counts is to stay competitive; one year out means forever out (ergo, Quintana); Bernal would have to stay active during the past three years in order to keep in touch with the ever growing level of the peleton; if that is the case, tough luck on Vingo, he might never be back to his "best";
Click to expand...
If he was doing his TdF Tour winning numbers he wouldn't get top 10
 
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CHGJ2000

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Elos Anjos said:
Bernal said he is back and beyond his best "numbers".

I'll ignore that the universal gauge today of any rider's self-image seems to be a set of numbers and not his confidence or "feelings". That would be a totally different discussion that not many forum users could fathom, even less comprehend.

What we know is that Bernal won a Giro and a Tour. If indeed he is "back", he would have to be next to Pogacar, Vingo and Roglic. Unless the peloton has increased its level so much that his numbers are therefore meaningless for a top ten or a podium.

The point is that if we take Bernal's talent and career and his assertion that he is back to his best numbers, if he does not perform in the Tour that can only mean:

1) we was lucky in his GT endeavours;
2) assessing performances based exclusively in numbers is flawed;
3) he is indeed back to his best level but that does not suffice anymore because what counts is to stay competitive; one year out means forever out (ergo, Quintana); Bernal would have to stay active during the past three years in order to keep in touch with the ever growing level of the peleton; if that is the case, tough luck on Vingo, he might never be back to his "best";
Click to expand...
It certainly cannot only mean that but the discussion you need to get into is not allowed on this part of the forum. Bernal also did stay active in the last few years, he was back to racing 7 months after his crash. Vingegaard's crash was very minor compared to Bernal's, I'm sure he'll be fine.
 
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Hugh Januss

Hugh Januss

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Wyndbrook said:
Of course an athlete can come back, often better, from a long period out of a sport through injury or other reasons.
Probably hundreds do it every year across all sports.
It's a constant with cruciate ligament injuries in women's football as an example.
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Even if Bernal exceeds his previous best what do we get? His crowning achievement to this point has been finishing 1:11 in front of teammate Thomas in the TDF, Alaphillipe was 5th in GC! Kruijswijk was 3rd for heaven sakes. Bernal is a nice racer, it sucks that he's been so far below his best for so long through no fault of his own, but he's in no way the sort of generational talent that Pogacar or Vingegaard or even Remco are. He's just not.
 
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Hugh Januss said:
Even if Bernal exceeds his previous best what do we get? His crowning achievement to this point has been finishing 1:11 in front of teammate Thomas in the TDF, Alaphillipe was 5th in GC! Kruijswijk was 3rd for heaven sakes. Bernal is a nice racer, it sucks that he's been so far below his best for so long through no fault of his own, but he's in no way the sort of generational talent that Pogacar or Vingegaard or even Remco are. He's just not.
Click to expand...
Thomas, Ala and Kruijswijk were much better back then than they are now.
 
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Peyroteo94

Peyroteo94

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Hugh Januss said:
Even if Bernal exceeds his previous best what do we get? His crowning achievement to this point has been finishing 1:11 in front of teammate Thomas in the TDF, Alaphillipe was 5th in GC! Kruijswijk was 3rd for heaven sakes. Bernal is a nice racer, it sucks that he's been so far below his best for so long through no fault of his own, but he's in no way the sort of generational talent that Pogacar or Vingegaard or even Remco are. He's just not.
Click to expand...
Finally someone who speaks straight facts! Guy was tremendously lucky to win a Tour. Even more than Nibali!
 
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Cookster15

Cookster15

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Peyroteo94 said:
Finally someone who speaks straight facts! Guy was tremendously lucky to win a Tour. Even more than Nibali!
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Tremendously? Every grand tour winner has luck and you are selling Nibali* short too.

Bernal totally deserved his 2019 TdF victory. He was indisputably the strongest rider and at that time the youngest winner since 1909. How is that luck?

I am always bemused when people say the shortened stage helped him. In fact everything happening on the road suggested it helped Alaphilippe stay closer. Bernal was so "lucky" he comfortably beat the defending champion from his own team. Maybe watch stage 19 again or simply check the results? I would back peak Bernal to beat peak Remco in a grand tour that wasn't TT heavy. Its unfair to compare him to two generational talents.

*In 2014 Nibali was at his absolute best.
 
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Tim Cahill

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There is an notion that has always been pushed by Murdoch and Sky, and proliferated by their cheerleaders, that English football began in 1992. Statistics and achievements before the advent of the Premier League(tm) are effectively wiped from history if you watch their broadcasts. Alan Shearer the top scorer, Arsenal the only invincibles.

This is what cycling is heading towards, on TV, on here, on social media, everything before 2020, 'the new era' is being devalued, it doesn't count anymore, because none of those other guys would stand a chance against our present favourites. It's as bollocks in football as it is in cycling.
 
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Oldermanish

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Hugh Januss said:
Even if Bernal exceeds his previous best what do we get? His crowning achievement to this point has been finishing 1:11 in front of teammate Thomas in the TDF, Alaphillipe was 5th in GC! Kruijswijk was 3rd for heaven sakes. Bernal is a nice racer, it sucks that he's been so far below his best for so long through no fault of his own, but he's in no way the sort of generational talent that Pogacar or Vingegaard or even Remco are. He's just not.
Click to expand...
All of that is true.
He could benefit from much better training and nutrition design than during his previous win. What he gets from that might surprise him and others. It's not like he's super old.
 
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Cookster15

Cookster15

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Hugh Januss said:
Even if Bernal exceeds his previous best what do we get? His crowning achievement to this point has been finishing 1:11 in front of teammate Thomas in the TDF, Alaphillipe was 5th in GC! Kruijswijk was 3rd for heaven sakes. Bernal is a nice racer, it sucks that he's been so far below his best for so long through no fault of his own, but he's in no way the sort of generational talent that Pogacar or Vingegaard or even Remco are. He's just not.
Click to expand...
I think this is a little unfair.

I think what you would get without his crash is better grand tour results than everyone except the two generational talents of Pogacar or Vingegaard. e.g. better than Enric Mas, the Yates twins, CRod and Martinez.

On a climbing heavy grand tour with a few mountains over 2,000 metres I don't see Remco living with peak Bernal. But I am not sure we will see peak Bernal again*. That will be very sad.

*I am not sure if Bernal has fully overcome the back problems which forced him out of the 2020 TdF. My understanding it was genetic issue, leg length etc ?
 
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Red Rick

Red Rick

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Cookster15 said:
I think this is a little unfair.

I think what you would get without his crash is better grand tour results than everyone except the two generational talents of Pogacar or Vingegaard. e.g. better than Enric Mas, the Yates twins, CRod and Martinez.

On a climbing heavy grand tour with a few mountains over 2,000 metres I don't see Remco living with peak Bernal. But I am not sure we will see peak Bernal again*. That will be very sad.

*I am not sure if Bernal has fully overcome the back problems which forced him out of the 2020 TdF. My understanding it was genetic issue, leg length etc ?
Click to expand...
The crash happened when he was already found out to be a solid tier below Roglic.
 
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Valv.Piti

Valv.Piti

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Samu Cuenca said:
Bernal was lucky he didn't end up in a wheelchair like Sergio Martín or worse.

We'll never know what he could have achieved since early 2022, but I don't think it's outrageous to think he would have podiumed at least one GT.
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Neither is it outrageous to believe he would have won one more. Bernal aint no slouch and he's finally back, but this Tour is just too much right now I think, even though I could actually see him podium given the questions we have about the absolute best riders.
 
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