The Official LANCE ARMSTRONG Thread 2010-2011

[Big GMaC]

Hey guys.

I just read through Twitter that this thead contains stuff that I dont agree with so I'm gonna try and stuff it up for ya'll by *****ing about how others can't stop attacking posters and picking on the big texan who gives me a raging stiff frame pump.

Twitter................

Personally I think WonderLance is the sockpuppet of one of the regular members and appears seldom-ly in the 'insider anti-troll troll' mode. It is a trolling post on the surface, but look closer an essentially it is mimicking through impersonation all of what trolls commonly say.

 

[WonderLance]

Personally I think WonderLance is the sockpuppet of one of the regular members and appears seldom-ly in the 'insider anti-troll troll' mode. It is a trolling post on the surface, but look closer an essentially it is mimicking through impersonation all of what trolls commonly say.

Ctrl+C Ctrl+P

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You might want to note where the provocation starts first around here. There might be a better way, but don't expect reason and civility back if you disagree with the e-mod around here. personal attacks come at you thick and fast. Note the amount of posts attacking CC for posting too much, despite the amount of quotes and responses directed at him, yet no such criticism comes for publicus who has been posting relentlessly of late

edit to make that point
# Total Posts: 445
# Posts Per Day: 2.30
# Find all posts by Carboncrank

# Total Posts: 2,113
# Posts Per Day: 6.48
# Find all posts by Publicus

Not quite:
CarbonCrank was banned from the end of July, hence his "Posts per Day" count looks small.

If you count back to 18th January he has posted over 300 posts - approx 16 posts per day.

 

[pmcg76]

You might want to note where the provocation starts first around here. There might be a better way, but don't expect reason and civility back if you disagree with the e-mod around here. personal attacks come at you thick and fast. Note the amount of posts attacking CC for posting too much, despite the amount of quotes and responses directed at him, yet no such criticism comes for publicus who has been posting relentlessly of late

edit to make that point
# Total Posts: 445
# Posts Per Day: 2.30
# Find all posts by Carboncrank

# Total Posts: 2,113
# Posts Per Day: 6.48
# Find all posts by Publicus

You miss something here, I think you will find Publicus posts in other non-Lance related threads. That could partly explain his high post count.

Carboncrank does not and you yourself, like Speedway & Guilder never have anything to add other than to criticise others but never or rarely post outside the Lance threads.

I would imagine that you and your kind are huge Lance fans but your lack of knowledge prevents you from posting properly and instead you prefer to take cheap shots at anyone who dislikes Lance and then try to claim some moral highground. Pathetic

Read what others less knowledgable posters say, then learn a lot when they come here, positive or negative. They definitely dont learn anything from your lot.

Anybody who comes on here and tries to argue that Eddy Merckx is not the greatest cyclist of all time by a huge margin is clearly on here to stir things up for whatever reason. I think we know the answer.

 

[pmcg76]

Well let's just say that this is not exactly what I had i mind, when I encouraged people to keep a decent level.

Still no answer to my original question..... sound like it's very hard to deliver specific documentation.

I have to admit, that this is a huge disappointment to me. Since joining this forum I have learned a lot. Some of the members really know a lot about pro cycling, and it's a real joy to come here, and share your knowledge aswell as opinions, but if it turns out some of this "knowledge" is unfounded....
Well let's just say, that I'm glad it's not me putting baseless claims forward.
Which is also why I'm surprised with the lack of interest to answer my question, that's the way to prove or make the claims probable.

Just from the top of my head I can recall Bianchigirl expressing this claim.



What's with the questionmarks please enlighten me if you have further documentation to support your speculation.



Well thanks, but I was actually kind of hoping for members with the opposite perception to come forward.
I'm having the hardest time comprehending why so many journalists missed the plot altogether.

About the messy thread, I have to say I really don't like CC's style (I'm no judge, and I certainly don't believe, I have the right to tell you how to behave. Personally I just stick to a less provocative style, which I believe will lead to a better and more interesting debate).
Although in this particular case, I haven't seen anything to suggest that the article is mistaken

I understand your frustration with these threads but all Lance threads are like this, always. I am sure you have noticed that a lot of the other threads on here are quite interesting. Have you noticed why?

I think that you will find that the majority of posters on here are firstly cycling fans, many with a long history of following the sport but we find Lance an undesirable part of our sport. We can spot BS when we see it.

On the contrary we have Lance fans who are interested in nothing else other than Lance and spend all their time trying to uphold the myths and defend his integrity.

Yes, some people speculate on what happened in certain circumstances and there is no definite conclusion or outcome and even the media dont have the definite story. The Tour of Ireland is the perfect example of this, I dont think I ever heard it mentioned in the media that the possibility the race was cut was due to the presence of Lance.

We speculated on here that might be the case but it has never been confirmed. We do now know that Lance did indeed receive a big pay-out and that the race was cut due to 'economic conditions' even though it would seem the budget was the same as last year and the organisers have said the race will be 5 days again next year. Look at this logically and what conclusion would you draw.

Look at Lances 2009 season, it was all about raising cancer awareness but take out the races he allegedly received payments for, Tour Down Under, Giro, Tour of Ireland and what is left. Tour, Vuelta Casilla y Leon(which he was made to race) and a few very minor US races. He stopped racing after the Tour. Does that sound like the schedule of somebody whose primary aim is to raise cancer awareness around the world. He also took huge payouts to promote cancer awareness so what was it really about in hindsight.

You draw your own conclusions and tell me what you think.

 

[SpeedWay]

Carboncrank does not and you yourself, like Speedway . . . .

Put us on ignore big boy. It's much less painful for posters with skin conducive to saddle sores. Plus you'll get the added benefit of having more control over who you let into your little fantasy world. It works great for cult leaders and others with major chinks in their armor.

 

[Digger]

I understand your frustration with these threads but all Lance threads are like this, always. I am sure you have noticed that a lot of the other threads on here are quite interesting. Have you noticed why?

I think that you will find that the majority of posters on here are firstly cycling fans, many with a long history of following the sport but we find Lance an undesirable part of our sport. We can spot BS when we see it.

On the contrary we have Lance fans who are interested in nothing else other than Lance and spend all their time trying to uphold the myths and defend his integrity.

Yes, some people speculate on what happened in certain circumstances and there is no definite conclusion or outcome and even the media dont have the definite story. The Tour of Ireland is the perfect example of this, I dont think I ever heard it mentioned in the media that the possibility the race was cut was due to the presence of Lance.

We speculated on here that might be the case but it has never been confirmed. We do now know that Lance did indeed receive a big pay-out and that the race was cut due to 'economic conditions' even though it would seem the budget was the same as last year and the organisers have said the race will be 5 days again next year. Look at this logically and what conclusion would you draw.

Look at Lances 2009 season, it was all about raising cancer awareness but take out the races he allegedly received payments for, Tour Down Under, Giro, Tour of Ireland and what is left. Tour, Vuelta Casilla y Leon(which he was made to race) and a few very minor US races. He stopped racing after the Tour. Does that sound like the schedule of somebody whose primary aim is to raise cancer awareness around the world. He also took huge payouts to promote cancer awareness so what was it really about in hindsight.

You draw your own conclusions and tell me what you think.

If it had been about cancer awareness, why didn't he race in some third world countries?
If it had been about cancer awareness, why a media and interview ban during the secong biggest race of the year?
If it had been.....why was he obsessed with slating AC in all his interviews from April onwards?
It was all a smokescreen to take away the focus from the doping issue. I am raising cancer awareness, I should be above suspicion.

 

[Digger]

Put us on ignore big boy. It's much less painful for posters with skin conducive to saddle sores. Plus you'll get the added benefit of having more control over who you let into your little fantasy world. It works great for cult leaders and others with major chinks in their armor.

Show me where he has been wrong.

 

[pmcg76]

Put us on ignore big boy. It's much less painful for posters with skin conducive to saddle sores. Plus you'll get the added benefit of having more control over who you let into your little fantasy world. It works great for cult leaders and others with major chinks in their armor.

And right on cue, another inane pointless comment, over 150 and counting. Glad to see you continue to show yourself up for the entertainment of the the other forum members. I dont put people on ignore, this is a forum, people can say what they want, its up to other members to debate, oh wait you dont debate.

 

[Big GMaC]

1. If it had been about cancer awareness, why didn't he race in some third world countries?

2. If it had been about cancer awareness, why a media and interview ban during the secong biggest race of the year?

3. If it had been about cancer awareness, why was he obsessed with slating AC in all his interviews from April onwards?

Conclusion: It was all a smokescreen to take away the focus from the doping issue. I am raising cancer awareness, I should be above suspicion.

Thanks Digger, this is a perfect summation of his behaviour and motivation last year.

For me, if he focused more on AWARENESS, by doing things like racing in 3rd world countries, bringing media attention to under valued areas that may have erased some of the damage he had done to his credibility. Yes he used the drug to gain success and notoriety outside of his sport through the successes they gave him, but if he had used the attention for the positive then I maybe would have less truck with him. instead he has made his position worse and tried to co-opt cancer as his defence rather than exploiting his success for the benefit of the people it effects.

[I slightly changed the quote for ease of visibility, no content change]

 

[Bike Boy]

Bike Boy, I'm just interested in the paper trail - why is the team spokesman saying that he doesn't know how the unpaid wages were settled when the guarantee is held expressly for such purposes? Why was Horner always paid - and assumed that Leipheimer etc must be because otherwise they'd be off to other teams - yet Leipheimer et al apparently weren't? And why do these problems only surface when an unpaid team member fresh out of retirement arrives on the scene immediately causing talk of licence withdrawal/transfer (each of which actions leave a handy space for the new team Armstrong starts talking about)? Clearly the KF were having problems getting sponsors to pay up, that's beyond dispute. I'm just interested in the way that Bruyneel handles the dispute and the finances - after all, with his best buddy back in the sport, engineering a situation where he can grab the PT licence must seem everso attractive.

On the other hand it could simply be that the oil rich Kazakh's got hit hard by the credit crunch, couldn't pay and Bruyneel chose to keep his less starry riders onside to provide support to the bigger names with the fat sponsorship/appearance deals.

As others have pointed out, some of the 'conspiracy theories' about Armstrong turn out to be startlingly true and, were you to search for the relationship between Armstrong and McQuaid's predecessor/mentor Hein Verbruggen (whose role in the Festina scandal is fascinating) you'd be greatly interested in the way that those 'conspiracy theories' are made real at the very highest levels of the sport.

Thank you, that was a great response! I'm tired of not having an educated opinion on this matter so I'm digging my way to the bottom of this case (or at least digging into whatever I can find on the net).
Unfortunately being in the middle of this research process, I find my self unable to respond thoroughly to your post.
This is what I got so far:

1. I haven't found anything suggesting Horner did get paid. A little help here would be appreciated

2. After everything that has happened since the start of the Tour de France last summer I have lost a lot of respect for JB and LA, and yes the thought you present here (JB speculating on how to overtake the PT licence) has crossed my mind.
If you have just a little bit of critical sense, then you have to be suspicious.

3. You mentioned something about illegal payments earlier in this thread. Guess this is what you were refering.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/no-payment-yet-for-astana

Mediator for the Kazakh federation, Rinus Wagtmans, told Belgian broadcaster Sporza, "The Kazakhs have told the UCI that they have tried to raise the funds, but that they were not successful.

"Wednesday Astana will try [to pay] again. However, I had advised them not to do so, because lawyers have rightly noted that the UCI cannot demand that extra guarantee."

Despite of all this I'm not convinced that JB had anything to do with the non-payment issue. I still find it based too much on speculation. Having said that, there's no question about the fact that LA's and JB's behaviour in general is highly questionable.
My concern here is that being so critical to every single step made by those two, we might forget that you can't presume that all speculation in that regard is the truth.

My only objective is to put these speculation under a fair amount of scrutiny. In that they I think it will be easier to determine, whether or not there is some truth to it.

 

[Publicus]

You miss something here, I think you will find Publicus posts in other non-Lance related threads. That could partly explain his high post count.

Carboncrank does not and you yourself, like Speedway & Guilder never have anything to add other than to criticise others but never or rarely post outside the Lance threads.

I would imagine that you and your kind are huge Lance fans but your lack of knowledge prevents you from posting properly and instead you prefer to take cheap shots at anyone who dislikes Lance and then try to claim some moral highground. Pathetic

Read what others less knowledgable posters say, then learn a lot when they come here, positive or negative. They definitely dont learn anything from your lot.

Anybody who comes on here and tries to argue that Eddy Merckx is not the greatest cyclist of all time by a huge margin is clearly on here to stir things up for whatever reason. I think we know the answer.

And I like to discuss/debate and have found myself beating several dead horses from the 2009 TdF. Thankfully, I don't believe there is much left of that carcass and with the 2010 season about to get into full swing, I'll have some new live horses to flog.

Thanks for the partial defense.

 

[Bike Boy]

I understand your frustration with these threads but all Lance threads are like this, always. I am sure you have noticed that a lot of the other threads on here are quite interesting. Have you noticed why?

I think that you will find that the majority of posters on here are firstly cycling fans, many with a long history of following the sport but we find Lance an undesirable part of our sport. We can spot BS when we see it.

On the contrary we have Lance fans who are interested in nothing else other than Lance and spend all their time trying to uphold the myths and defend his integrity.

Yes, some people speculate on what happened in certain circumstances and there is no definite conclusion or outcome and even the media dont have the definite story. The Tour of Ireland is the perfect example of this, I dont think I ever heard it mentioned in the media that the possibility the race was cut was due to the presence of Lance.

We speculated on here that might be the case but it has never been confirmed. We do now know that Lance did indeed receive a big pay-out and that the race was cut due to 'economic conditions' even though it would seem the budget was the same as last year and the organisers have said the race will be 5 days again next year. Look at this logically and what conclusion would you draw.

Look at Lances 2009 season, it was all about raising cancer awareness but take out the races he allegedly received payments for, Tour Down Under, Giro, Tour of Ireland and what is left. Tour, Vuelta Casilla y Leon(which he was made to race) and a few very minor US races. He stopped racing after the Tour. Does that sound like the schedule of somebody whose primary aim is to raise cancer awareness around the world. He also took huge payouts to promote cancer awareness so what was it really about in hindsight.

You draw your own conclusions and tell me what you think.

I'm very busy right now so this is gonna be a short reply. actually I read about this a few days ago, and yes I agree the logic speechs for it self.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm very busy right now so this is gonna be a short reply. actually I read about this a few days ago, and yes I agree the logic speechs for it self.

BikeBoy- I wrote this a few months ago - it gives a timeline to Lances participation in the Tour of Ireland...... it might be of help.
.........
I made the original suggestion that the race had gone from a 5 day to a 3 day because of the participation of LA – however at the time it was just an educated guess.
However since then I have done some digging and it appears to confirm my view - but I will publish it here so you can make up your own minds.

1st May 2007:
Tour of Ireland (ToI) launched - 16 teams will participate, full route details given. Promoted by Events Groupin conjuction with Shadetree Sports.

The race is sponsored by Failte Ireland who confirm "the backing is a multi-year deal, making it likely that the race will develop and grow as time passes. Funding is made available through Failte Irelands ‘Sports Tourism Initiative’.

2nd June 2008:
Darach McQuaid (yes- Pat's brother) of Shadetree Sports said; “We and our title sponsor Fáilte Ireland are extremely pleased to welcome An Post to a three year Partner Sponsorship with the Tour of Ireland.

June 26th 2008:
Launch of ToI with full routes - 16 team to participate.
"A number of additional sponsors have also been announced. An Post has expanded its involvement to become Official Partner of the race and repeat their sponsorship of the An Post Green Sprinters Jersey.

Official vehicles supplied by Fiat Automotive Ireland.
Official Timing will be provided by Festina Watches.
Official Trophies are being created by Waterford Crystal.
De Marchi Sport of Italy supply all of the race leaders jerseys.
Thule Racks are supplied for all team vehicles.
Vittel is the Official Water used throughout the race"

December 5th 2008.
Darach McQuaid Project Director of the Tour of Ireland said that he had been talking to Lance and his colleagues at the Lance Armstrong Foundation, who run all of his Livestrong initiatives, regarding his possible participation in the 2009 Tour of Ireland.

23rd February 2009:
LIVESTRONG™ Global Cancer Summit to be held in Dublin, Ireland in August.

24th February 2009:
LA’s start confirmed by Darach McQuaid who was at The Tour of California and say’s “We have a unique race course designed with him in mind and we will be announcing the race route in the coming weeks”.

8th July 2008:
Launch of ToI 2009: It is revealed as a 3 day event due to the “very tough economic climate”.
"We have had to be realistic with the race budget in view of the recession” said Alan Ruston.
However at the end of the article it says “it is planned that it will return to a five-day contest next year”.

18th July 2009– finally some stage detail are announced naming the start and finishing towns. “We will be issuing more details of the route next week”

27th September 2009: Confirmation of the races slot for 2010: It is intended that the event now entering its fourth year would revert to a five day.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Thank you, ...
<Snipped for brevity>

My concern here is that being so critical to every single step made by those two, we might forget that you can't presume that all speculation in that regard is the truth.

My only objective is to put these speculation under a fair amount of scrutiny. In that they I think it will be easier to determine, whether or not there is some truth to it.

Bike Boy - some months ago I did "try" and get to the bottom of the "Astana Issue". However at the time my interest was in seeing if Contador would have a team at the end of the year, so I was not really following the money - just the contracts. But I did uncover some useful information about the background to the team.

From memory - I do believe the Astana money issue was genuine - and I dont think JB (Olympus SARL) had anything to do with it - but if you have specific points or questions I may be able to offer some insight.

But like yourself I am busy at the moment so it may take a while to answer.... Cheers.

 

[Big GMaC]

24th February 2009:
LA’s start confirmed by Darach McQuaid who was at The Tour of California and say’s “We have a unique race course designed with him in mind and we will be announcing the race route in the coming weeks”.

The least he could have done was finish his 'special' course... Did he have to give back any appearance money for being a complete pussy in the rain/scares of the hill without any blood bags

 

[Digger]

The least he could have done was finish his 'special' course... Did he have to give back any appearance money for being a complete pussy in the rain/scares of the hill without any blood bags

He annoyed so many people that day. People who wouldn't follow cycling came out in their thousands for the showpiece of the race. The final day, on a hill they would cycle three times. Koppenberg without the cobbles...and our boy gets off his bike just prior to the first time they were to cycle it. That's it, race finished...f*** the fans.

 

[Anonymous]

This thread's funny. Every time I check it out another 20 pages have been written! Anyway, I think I've found Carbon Crank's heaven*:

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12678900



*Well, heaven other than the Livestrong/Shack forums.

 

[thehog]

BikeBoy- I wrote this a few months ago - it gives a timeline to Lances participation in the Tour of Ireland...... it might be of help.
.........
I made the original suggestion that the race had gone from a 5 day to a 3 day because of the participation of LA – however at the time it was just an educated guess.
However since then I have done some digging and it appears to confirm my view - but I will publish it here so you can make up your own minds.
him in mind and we will be announcing the race route in the coming weeks”.

8th July 2008:
Launch of ToI 2009: It is revealed as a 3 day event due to the “very tough economic climate”.
"We have had to be realistic with the race budget in view of the recession” said Alan Ruston.
However at the end of the article it says “it is planned that it will return to a five-day contest next year”.

18th July 2009– finally some stage detail are announced naming the start and finishing towns. “We will be issuing more details of the route next week”

27th September 2009: Confirmation of the races slot for 2010: It is intended that the event now entering its fourth year would revert to a five day.

Thank-you for printing this. I for one was not aware of the sequence of events. I had my suspicions but did not factor in the payment.

If you listen to Lance's speech from the event (5 mins in total over 3 days!) you can tell he didn't prepare for it. He spoke off the cuff and it was a drab speech - hardly inspiring. He was obviously struggling to find the reason why all the people are in the room other than the fact that he's getting paid an inordinate sum of money to be there. Even more funny a young cancer survivor is thrown up on stage to introduce Lance as her "friend" but goes on to call it "Livestrong" as in live concert not live as in living - ie she was reading a card not speaking from the heart.

From the summit they were due to announce: "....conversations are ongoing with the Kingdom of Jordan to announce a substantial new commitment in that country" - not heard anymore about this. But please - The Kingdom of Jordan? WTF? If he rode the Tour of Omar than perhaps we should have seen another pay slip coming through the door?

So thats personal pay cheques of:

2009/09 TDU - 4million total
2009 Giro - 2 million
2009 ToC - 3 million
2009 ToI - 3 million
= 12 million in 18 months - not bad.

 

[Ripper]

So thats personal pay cheques of:

2009/09 TDU - 4million total
2009 Giro - 2 million
2009 ToC - 3 million
2009 ToI - 3 million
= 12 million in 18 months - not bad.

But you are more aware of cancer now!

 

[Digger]

But you are more aware of cancer now!

Yeah, here in Ireland, the awareness is at genius proportions...thanks to Lance.

 

[Polish]

Instead of riding the 35th edition of the Tour of Ireland, Lance should have focused instead on the more traditional "Post-Tour Criteriums". Not only would he have been paid a lucrative appearance fee, but the organization would have "fixed" the ride so that Lance would have won.

Most cycling fans realize that riders who podium at the TdF are Toast during the month of August. Some riders are already lazily snoozing in their hometowns by then, fingers joyously twitching as they sleep and dream only of the next TdF.

 

[thehog]

Yeah, here in Ireland, the awareness is at genius proportions...thanks to Lance.

From another forum:

"you got to be kidding me almost greatest comeback? were not talking about a few rounds in a boxing match here were talking TDF and would have won the tour if he would of busted out that team TT and been in yellow, Lance knows what has to be done to win 2010 and hide and watch. Contador is a jerk off and proved nothing for what he did, he is young strong and sure everone knows it, he has not been off the bike for 4 years and I think he is only 26? Dude almost 200 riders started the race and he finished 3rd. Not trying to get into a ****ing match with you but I feel this was the Greatest comeback in sports history."

 

[BYOP88]

From another forum:

"you got to be kidding me almost greatest comeback? were not talking about a few rounds in a boxing match here were talking TDF and would have won the tour if he would of busted out that team TT and been in yellow, Lance knows what has to be done to win 2010 and hide and watch. Contador is a jerk off and proved nothing for what he did, he is young strong and sure everone knows it, he has not been off the bike for 4 years and I think he is only 26? Dude almost 200 riders started the race and he finished 3rd. Not trying to get into a ****ing match with you but I feel this was the Greatest comeback in sports history."

That person is clearly stupid, surely all Pharmstrong fans would pick the 1st comeback as the greatest feat of all time in the history of the world.

 

[Big GMaC]

That person is clearly stupid, surely all Pharmstrong fans would pick the 1st comeback as the greatest feat of all time in the history of the world.

but how would they know about that, they have only been following cycling since 1999!