The pedaling technique thread

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Jun 4, 2015
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JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
and it is more efficient to let the down leg muscles push the rising pedal from 9+ o'c to TDC than having the weakest muscles do it, counterweighted single leg pedalling confirmed that.
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Are you suggesting that the amount of muscle effort for 'unweighting' on the upstroke should be stopped at 9+ o'c ?

And if that is what you mean, then I think it would take considerable mental concentration to make that happen. Especially if the rider was using active muscle action in the 5 to 9 o'c sector.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

That's what works best for me when using the mashing style, the unweighting I do accelerates the foot and leg weight upwards and the powerful downstroke muscles take over from after 9 o'c. Frank Day also said that most difficult sector for the PC'er was from after 9 to TDC. It is not possible to use non counterweighted single leg pedalling in that sector when using Anquetil's method, it would have to be counterweighted, but then that involves applying maximal forward force at 11 o'c instead of trying to drag the pedal up and forward to TDC as is done when using the circular style. Circular pedalling can be useful, it helps when perfecting the mashing style.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
and it is more efficient to let the down leg muscles push the rising pedal from 9+ o'c to TDC than having the weakest muscles do it, counterweighted single leg pedalling confirmed that.
-----------
Are you suggesting that the amount of muscle effort for 'unweighting' on the upstroke should be stopped at 9+ o'c ?

And if that is what you mean, then I think it would take considerable mental concentration to make that happen. Especially if the rider was using active muscle action in the 5 to 9 o'c sector.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

That's what works best for me when using the mashing style, the unweighting I do accelerates the foot and leg weight upwards and the powerful downstroke muscles take over from after 9 o'c. Frank Day also said that most difficult sector for the PC'er was from after 9 to TDC. It is not possible to use non counterweighted single leg pedalling in that sector when using Anquetil's method, it would have to be counterweighted, but then that involves applying maximal forward force at 11 o'c instead of trying to drag the pedal up and forward to TDC as is done when using the circular style. Circular pedalling can be useful, it helps when perfecting the mashing style.

Frank Day is not a credible source.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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And stop being insulting to Anquetil. He won because he would have had the right combination of a high VO2max, utilization of his VO2max (threshold) and high efficiency. Any pedalling nonsense is just guessing on your behalf. Real scientists have shown that concentrating on pedalling leads to a drop in efficiency. Present data or just keep making us laugh at your stupid assertions.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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CoachFergie said:
And stop being insulting to Anquetil. He won because he would have had the right combination of a high VO2max, utilization of his VO2max (threshold) and high efficiency. Any pedalling nonsense is just guessing on your behalf. Real scientists have shown that concentrating on pedalling leads to a drop in efficiency. Present data or just keep making us laugh at your stupid assertions.


Concentrating on the wrong type of pedalling leads to a drop in performance and efficiency.
 
Mar 13, 2013
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backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
And stop being insulting to Anquetil.

" You have to realize that Anquetil perfected his style in training with a concentration that often made him resent the presence of other riders around him "

That's not for pedalling technique.

Almost all training is better done alone. Interval training is certainly better done alone, whether the intervals are 60 seconds or 60 minutes.

And are you quoting someone? Who are you quoting, and why are you quoting someone else's opinion as proof of your opinion?
 
Jun 4, 2015
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berend said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
And stop being insulting to Anquetil.

" You have to realize that Anquetil perfected his style in training with a concentration that often made him resent the presence of other riders around him "

That's not for pedalling technique.

Almost all training is better done alone. Interval training is certainly better done alone, whether the intervals are 60 seconds or 60 minutes.

And are you quoting someone? Who are you quoting, and why are you quoting someone else's opinion as proof of your opinion?

All his interval training was done while using a Derny. I am quoting from B Hinault's book. Split second timing was a vital part of his TT technique because unlike all other pedalling styles it had no 60 deg. idling sector. That cannot be perfected when cycling with other riders.
 
Jun 18, 2015
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Note that in that study, the authors don't report efficiency / metabolic cost. Imagine this scenario: "Okay Pro Cyclist, we are going to measure your pedaling biomechanics. We think that Pros like you will pull up more than lower level riders. So just pedal they way you always pedal. Okay we will collect data now." So the pros did pull up more during data collection. Do they always pedal that way? We don't know. Was it more efficient? We don't know.
In fact one would certainly expect that the authors would have wanted to know about efficiency. Maybe they measured it but chose not to report it because it didn't fit their narrative.
We DO know that anyone can pull up and that these cyclists did pull up during the data collection. That's it.


backdoor said:
[quote="CoachFergie Real scientists have shown that concentrating on pedalling leads to a drop in efficiency.


http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640414.2015.1127987?src=recsys&journalCode=rjsp20[/quote]
 
Jun 4, 2015
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PhitBoy said:
Note that in that study, the authors don't report efficiency / metabolic cost. Imagine this scenario: "Okay Pro Cyclist, we are going to measure your pedaling biomechanics. We think that Pros like you will pull up more than lower level riders. So just pedal they way you always pedal. Okay we will collect data now." So the pros did pull up more during data collection. Do they always pedal that way? We don't know. Was it more efficient? We don't know.
In fact one would certainly expect that the authors would have wanted to know about efficiency. Maybe they measured it but chose not to report it because it didn't fit their narrative.
We DO know that anyone can pull up and that these cyclists did pull up during the data collection. That's it.


backdoor said:
[quote="CoachFergie Real scientists have shown that concentrating on pedalling leads to a drop in efficiency.


It appears to me that those doing pedalling studies don't know the difference between circular pedalling, pulling up or unweighting , or if they do, they make no mention of it.
 
Jun 4, 2015
785
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backdoor said:
PhitBoy said:
Note that in that study, the authors don't report efficiency / metabolic cost. Imagine this scenario: "Okay Pro Cyclist, we are going to measure your pedaling biomechanics. We think that Pros like you will pull up more than lower level riders. So just pedal they way you always pedal. Okay we will collect data now." So the pros did pull up more during data collection. Do they always pedal that way? We don't know. Was it more efficient? We don't know.
In fact one would certainly expect that the authors would have wanted to know about efficiency. Maybe they measured it but chose not to report it because it didn't fit their narrative.
We DO know that anyone can pull up and that these cyclists did pull up during the data collection. That's it.


backdoor said:
[quote="CoachFergie Real scientists have shown that concentrating on pedalling leads to a drop in efficiency.


It appears to me that those doing pedalling studies don't know the difference between circular pedalling, pulling up or unweighting , or if they do, they make no mention of it.

http://www.over40cyclist.com/correct-pedalling-technique-part-2/
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.
 
From the abstract, it seems to only demonstrate that non-sysmetrical pedalling technique can be made more sysmetrical with focused training.
It would be interesting to know how overall power and endurance were affected, and also for the control group who did a similar amount of training but w/o intent of changing technique.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Jun 4, 2015
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CoachFergie said:
Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.

Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.

Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.
maybe you could show us a video of this aternative approach you speak of. I would really like to see it. thanks
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Re: Re:

veganrob said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.

Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.
maybe you could show us a video of this aternative approach you speak of. I would really like to see it. thanks

And any real evidence, beyond your imagination, that he did in fact pedal any differently to anyone else.
 
Jun 4, 2015
785
0
3,280
Re: Re:

veganrob said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.

Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.
maybe you could show us a video of this aternative approach you speak of. I would really like to see it. thanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

That's the best I can do. In that close up on the track finishing straight he is applying the same maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c. By extending the range of your max torque sector from 30 to almost 120 deg. you can increase power output from your pedalling power stroke while reducing your peak force/torque.
 
Jun 1, 2014
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Re: Re:

backdoor said:
veganrob said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.

Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.
maybe you could show us a video of this aternative approach you speak of. I would really like to see it. thanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

That's the best I can do. In that close up on the track finishing straight he is applying the same maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c. By extending the range of your max torque sector from 30 to almost 120 deg. you can increase power output from your pedalling power stroke while reducing your peak force/torque.

That is incredible that you are able to perform that analysis so accurately based on a simple youtube video. To think that the 'experts' send thousands of dollars on high tech equipment to test the same things and somehow don't find as useful a solution as you have. You should really find a way to validate your technical assessment and revolutionize bike racing for everyone!!
 
Apr 21, 2009
3,095
0
0
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
veganrob said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.

Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.
maybe you could show us a video of this aternative approach you speak of. I would really like to see it. thanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

That's the best I can do. In that close up on the track finishing straight he is applying the same maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c. By extending the range of your max torque sector from 30 to almost 120 deg. you can increase power output from your pedalling power stroke while reducing your peak force/torque.

Pathetic.
 
Jun 4, 2015
785
0
3,280
Re: Re:

CoachFergie said:
backdoor said:
veganrob said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.

Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.
maybe you could show us a video of this aternative approach you speak of. I would really like to see it. thanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

That's the best I can do. In that close up on the track finishing straight he is applying the same maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c. By extending the range of your max torque sector from 30 to almost 120 deg. you can increase power output from your pedalling power stroke while reducing your peak force/torque.

Pathetic.


" If any one rider became associated with high gears, it was Anquetil. He made high gears look good. Unlike the others, he stayed in them all the time. Unlike everyone else, he could turn them with a silky smoothness that only the showers of sweat that he shed showed wasn't effortless. "

Now you know how he powered and why he preferred the higher gears, you don't get enough time to use this extra maximal muscle power when using the lower gears.