The pedaling technique thread

[coapman]

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1) From 5 to 11, is the pedal consciously being
"unweighted and drawn back but it is mainly only clearing a resistance free path for the idling pedal"?
If the 5-11 movement is not done with some amount of conscious control, how do you ensure that it is being done effectively?

2) At 11, I really doubt that
"torque goes instantly from zero to 2 o'c equivalent".
I suspect there is a pre-11 buildup of force that begins earlier - perhaps at 10.
And as you said
"There is some slight force after 5 o'c following the simultaneous switch over of power application from one leg to the other".
Endwell NY USA

The unweighting and drawing back is a reflex action that occurs at the switch over of power application. It is being done effectively because I get the result I was searching for. Things happen so fast after 8 o'c, it's hard to know what is going on, that is where the new powermeters will be most useful and they can also be useful in putting the finishing touches to this new style of pedalling. Also in the back stroke your muscles have to switch from reverse action back to forward action and the foot has to get to crank speed before torque takes effect at 11.

 

[sciguy]

The unweighting and drawing back is a reflex action that occurs at the switch over of power application. It is being done effectively because I get the result I was searching for. Things happen so fast after 8 o'c, it's hard to know what is going on, that is where the new powermeters will be most useful and they can also be useful in putting the finishing touches to this new style of pedalling. Also in the back stroke your muscles have to switch from reverse action back to forward action and the foot has to get to crank speed before torque takes effect at 11.

Noel,

I'm right on the edge of my seat in anticipation of seeing some of the power files you'll be generating when the new power meters become widely available. I'm certain they will prove very illuminating to all the doubters.

Hugh

 

[FrankDay]

Noel,

I'm right on the edge of my seat in anticipation of seeing some of the power files you'll be generating when the new power meters become widely available. I'm certain they will prove very illuminating to all the doubters.

Hugh

I tried to reply with a simple X2 but it was too short for the forum rules. So, I repeat. X2

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Anybody else notice Froome's form in Wednesday's ITT? His upper body was rocking so hard, and his front wheel was wandering to and fro so incessantly, he couldn't have been pedaling any squarer if he'd been riding a big wheel.

The unweighting and drawing back is a reflex action that occurs at the switch over of power application....

A reflex is an autonomic response. There is nothing autonomic about pedaling a bicycle.

 

[coapman]

A reflex is an autonomic response. There is nothing autonomic about pedaling a bicycle.

To put it another way, it's a reaction to the sudden application of maximal force by your other leg to the crank as your brain prepares this leg for instant take over of force application, which is necessary when you pedal without a dead spot sector between pedalling strokes. Try pedalling without a dead spot sector between 11-1 o'c, then you will understand.

 

[coapman]

Anybody else notice Froome's form in Wednesday's ITT? His upper body was rocking so hard, and his front wheel was wandering to and fro so incessantly, he couldn't have been pedaling any squarer if he'd been riding a big wheel.

He was using a non round (probably Osymetric) chainring which should mean an irregular pedaling pattern. How would you describe "squared pedaling".

 

[CoachFergie]

With the introduction of the Garmin Vector, Rotor and Pioneer power meters what are people expecting as an outcome. Pedalling technique has been well studied for over 30 years and nothing has changed much in terms of way we teach (or in my case as a coach not teach) people how to pedal.

Compared to what we have learned about the specific nature of the sport and all the disciplines thanks to power meters, the management of training thanks to power meters and performance management charts, a better understanding of exercise physiology and sports nutrition.

In the Tour de France we saw riders losing because they bonked, crashed, lacked team support, rode badly as a team but I don't recall anyone claiming they lost the tour because they could have pedalled better. In fact many people claim Froome looks awful on a bike and has a terrible pedalling style (prob more position or Osymetric rings) and still won the thing!

So make your picks about how big a game changer will a Joe Public, that doesn't really get racing and training with a Power Meter, knowing force vectors while riding be?

40% improvement in power after 6-9 months of dedicated riding seeing where the power is being applied around the pedal stroke

 

[coapman]

In the Tour de France we saw riders losing because they bonked, crashed, lacked team support, rode badly as a team but I don't recall anyone claiming they lost the tour because they could have pedalled better.

Why would they, when they know of only one way to power their cranks. Maybe you could explain why so many road racers hate riding time trials.

 

[CoachFergie]

It's not called the race of truth for nothing. And for many the truth hurts.

 

[coapman]

It's not called the race of truth for nothing. And for many the truth hurts.

It's not the truth that hurts, it's the fact that natural pedalling techniques are not suitable for flat TT courses. They are ideal for RR accelerations and where even when riding at max speed, you will only be using about 70% of your possible max power output. For TT's you need a technique that gives sustainable close to max power output in a more effective (extended sector of max pedal force application) and more efficient ( torque return from force to pedal) way, resulting in less stress on the muscles, compared to having a much shorter range of max pedal force application and having your most efficient pedalling restricted to that 30 deg. sector around 3 o'c. The perfect force/vector PM should be able to demonstrate to you how much you have to learn about the science of pedalling.

 

[CoachFergie]

It's not the truth that hurts, it's the fact that natural pedalling techniques are not suitable for flat TT courses.

So you keep saying and have never provided any evidence to support. Just remember Noel, your only qualification for saying anything is that you have an internet connection.

 

[FrankDay]

In the Tour de France we saw riders losing because they bonked, crashed, lacked team support, rode badly as a team but I don't recall anyone claiming they lost the tour because they could have pedalled better. In fact many people claim Froome looks awful on a bike and has a terrible pedalling style (prob more position or Osymetric rings) and still won the thing!

Perhaps that is because no one actually knows what their pedaling technique actually is since it is currently impossible to measure, at least during a competition. That is about to change I would hope.

So make your picks about how big a game changer will a Joe Public, that doesn't really get racing and training with a Power Meter, knowing force vectors while riding be?

My guess is it will be a huge game changer as I suspect that it will eventually become obvious that technique (and what happens on the backstroke and over the top) actually matters. The "just push harder" argument will become a quaint anecdote of what the old-timers used to believe somewhat like the early TDF participants thought smoking was good for the lungs and performance.

40% improvement in power after 6-9 months of dedicated riding seeing where the power is being applied around the pedal stroke

Here is the problem. There is a big difference between measuring technique and being able to change technique, IMHO. If it is possible to easily change technique by just knowing where you are now and where you want to end up then this information will be easily and widely adopted. If it is not easy to make the desired changes then one might start looking for help, if such help exists.

 

[CoachFergie]

Perhaps that is because no one actually knows what their pedaling technique actually is since it is currently impossible to measure, at least during a competition. That is about to change I would hope.

30+ years of studying pedalling technique and no game changing work has come forth. I love your optimism

My guess is it will be a huge game changer as I suspect that it will eventually become obvious that technique (and what happens on the backstroke and over the top) actually matters. The "just push harder" argument will become a quaint anecdote of what the old-timers used to believe somewhat like the early TDF participants thought smoking was good for the lungs and performance.

Again 30 years of research don't suggest your optimism is well founded.

Here is the problem. There is a big difference between measuring technique and being able to change technique, IMHO. If it is possible to easily change technique by just knowing where you are now and where you want to end up then this information will be easily and widely adopted. If it is not easy to make the desired changes then one might start looking for help, if such help exists.

Do you know a guy named Noel. He has a theory on pedalling as well. Sure you two will get on well

 

[Boeing]

is pedaling in a forward circular motion the correct technique?

Coach Fargo and Franko, can ya'll shed some light on Technical Downhill backpedaling g technique and its relevance to braking and cornering timing?

it falls under skill set not fitness FYI ?

 

[veganrob]

It's not called the race of truth for nothing. And for many the truth hurts.

That's awesome. Post of the day. Thanks.

 

[coapman]

30+ years of studying pedalling technique and no game changing work has come forth. I love your optimism

You can make that 120+ years of studying pedalling and no improvement. So what is responsible for this failure, they completely ignored the arms in all of this research. It was only when those from another sport demonstrated the importance of an aerodynamic hand/arm position in time trials that these same experts realized this important fact. The other even more important fact is that the arms can supply the perfect solution for the dead spot sector. After seeing what a combined arm/leg technique is capable of on a force/vector PM graph, and after a detailed explanation and demonstration, it should only take one or two days learning and perfecting of this simple technique for any interested rider to start producing an extra 30+ % of crank torque from his pedalling without increasing peak crank torque.

 

[CoachFergie]

You can make that 120+ years of studying pedalling and no improvement.

You must be so proud of your contribution to that figure

 

[coapman]

You must be so proud of your contribution to that figure

My claims are genuine, where have they gone wrong in that 10% power increase claim: http://www.trainsharpcyclecoaching.co.uk/products/chainrings.html

 

[CoachFergie]

My claims are genuine, where have they gone wrong in that 10% power increase claim: http://www.trainsharpcyclecoaching.co.uk/products/chainrings.html

Have you learned nothing from previous "claims" about an increase in power?

I guess not. Just remember that just because the voices in your head tell you the numbers are genuine doesn't mean they really are.

 

[coapman]

Have you learned nothing from previous "claims" about an increase in power?

I guess not. Just remember that just because the voices in your head tell you the numbers are genuine doesn't mean they really are.

I asked you a question, I am waiting for an answer.

 

[CoachFergie]

About Ossymetric Rings? Well it would appear that you are in good company with delusions about the importance of crank length, non-symmetric rings, pedaling technique etc.

 

[ustabe]

My theory is, you should stop pushing once your foot can't go any lower.

 

[coapman]

My theory is, you should stop pushing once your foot can't go any lower.

Too late, wasted force.

 

[coapman]

If you say so. Although my calculations would indicate my legs are not idling across the top as the top is 2/3 of the bottom and calculates to be 36% of the maximum torque. That doesn't sound like idling to me. Moreover, I manage to do that without concentrating on anything. It is just how I pedal. And, while I am not maximizing one quadrant, I am getting a substantial input from 3 quadrants. It is the total power generated around the two circles combined that adds up to the whole, not what is done in just half the circle of each of the two cranks. Have you ever ridden a computrainer? It is not like they are hard to find. Can you tell us what your spinscan number is when you are riding?. If so we can make some assumptions and then, perhaps, draw some conclusions about how you are actually pedaling as opposed to what you think you are doing.

Spinscan number is average torque/peak torque x 100. How is average torque calculated. I did manage to perfect your 3 quadrant technique and while it could be excellent for training purposes, its max power output is much lower than the mashing or semi circular techniques. Its two main disadvantages are, there is no time to make a serious effort to apply downward torque at 3 o'c, a sector where muscles are most effective, downward force there is little more than the weight of the leg and the legs do not get any recovery time. But as I said, its excellent for training because when you return to other techniques, your muscles can take full advantage of recovery time. I now understand how it can give 90+ spinscan numbers, that is, depending on how that average torque is calculated.

 

[FrankDay]

Spinscan number is average torque/peak torque x 100. How is average torque calculated.

You are kidding right? If you know the average power for one revolution (the power seen on the power meter) and the cadence you have all you need to calculate the average torque.

I did manage to perfect your 3 quadrant technique and while it could be excellent for training purposes, its max power output is much lower than the mashing or semi circular techniques. Its two main disadvantages are, there is no time to make a serious effort to apply downward torque at 3 o'c, a sector where muscles are most effective, downward force there is little more than the weight of the leg and the legs do not get any recovery time. But as I said, its excellent for training because when you return to other techniques, your muscles can take full advantage of recovery time. I now understand how it can give 90+ spinscan numbers, that is, depending on how that average torque is calculated.

Unless you can show us your actual pedal forces no one is going to believe that you have perfected any technique or anything else you claim.