The Polish XMas Troll - Formerly "Lance - Father of the Modern Euro Pro TT Position"

[Libertine Seguros]

The most revolutionary ideas in TT in that era mostly came from this guy:

 

[Polish]

Still think Lance was rocking aero bars on the road before Boardman or Obree.
Could be wrong.

And I am NOT saying Lance was the prettiest or most elegant.
Just the FIRST of the Euro Pros.

Alpha dog.

 

[Race Radio]

Show me a Euro Pro on TT bars before Lance....

Show me a Euro Pro riding in a Speedo.

 

[flicker]

I do not like aero bars, Ocana had the epic position TT without aero bars.

Still some of the Europros look great like Cadel. Lances position is ugly, I think it is in his DNA. Still Lance is the greatest TT man ever, to beat Ulrich and the phantom Twin was epic.

 

[D-Queued]

The most revolutionary ideas in TT in that era mostly came from this guy:

...

And Obree isn't even wearing shoe covers. Gotta like those LeMond Team Z Carnacs, though.

Lance's position (i.e. the hump) is not/was not very aero. I have worked with some of the wind tunnel team. This is fact based upon actual testing.

LeMond, on the other hand, is well known to have had very low drag numbers. That is genetics working for you.

One area where Lance did dominate his competitors was that his power output actually increased over the three weeks of the Tour while the output of all of his competitors actually decreased.

So, what was it that made him go fast again?

As for best TT ever, how about Indurain's 508 watt average for the hour record?

And Lance's best attempt at the hour was... oh yeah, smokescreen.

He wasn't even good enough to try.

Dave.

 

[flicker]

And Obree isn't even wearing shoe covers. Gotta like those LeMond Team Z Carnacs, though.

Lance's position (i.e. the hump) is not/was not very aero. I have worked with some of the wind tunnel team. This is fact based upon actual testing.

LeMond, on the other hand, is well known to have had very low drag numbers. That is genetics working for you.

One area where Lance did dominate his competitors was that his power output actually increased over the three weeks of the Tour while the output of all of his competitors actually decreased.

So, what was it that made him go fast again?

As for best TT ever, how about Indurain's 508 watt average for the hour record?

And Lance's best attempt at the hour was... oh yeah, smokescreen.

He wasn't even good enough to try.

Dave.

lance beat ulrich,tyler mayo and even contador in a little bitty td, he is simp,y epic.

 

[happychappy]

Show me a Euro Pro riding in a Speedo.

No thanks - I've seen one set of speedos today, that's more than enough.

 

[sniper]

quote: Originally posted by flicker: lance beat ulrich,tyler mayo and even contador in a little bitty td, he is simp,y epic.

We'll find out in 2011 just how epic he was.

 

[goggalor]

Polish, dude, they're called tri-bars for a reason.

 

[ricara]

The most revolutionary ideas in TT in that era mostly came from this guy:

Yep. You can see that he is doing everything he can to keep the air from heading straight into his hips. Very effective. He has a mild curve to his back. I assert that his performance would have been even better if he had flattened it out. But that requires a coach working with him that knows how that is accomplished and can also observe him while riding. I haven't read the book, but my understanding is that Obree was a loner and did everything himself.

 

[forty four]

do any of you **** talking clowns currently race? you know who you are the bitter tards who thinks with peds they would not suck. trust me you would anyways both physically and mentally as you play the victim role regarding your failures. any tough guy **** talking posters in socal want to do a little fast ride im in poor fitness as its winter and i have been sick but i bet im better and faster anyways pm me. or get a ****ing life sorry *** mo fos who get there kicks knocking actual competitors. get the **** off the site this is for fans of bike racing

 

[ricara]

Lance's position (i.e. the hump) is not/was not very aero. I have worked with some of the wind tunnel team. This is fact based upon actual testing.

LeMond, on the other hand, is well known to have had very low drag numbers. That is genetics working for you.

My take is that the only role genetics plays is how narrow your hips are. I can't remember racing against anyone with particularly narrow hips besides Ron Hayman.

I say that positioning is a skill. It can be developed through practice, just like cornering, sprinting, descending, climbing, whatever. It's simply a matter of knowing what to do and how to do it. There are very few coaches who understand this. I have never seen it written about in books nor magazines. But the best riders knew about it in the old days, before EPO. Maybe it doesn't matter when you're juiced. I don't know anything about that part.

 

[sniper]

Yep. You can see that he is doing everything he can to keep the air from heading straight into his hips. Very effective. He has a mild curve to his back. I assert that his performance would have been even better if he had flattened it out. But that requires a coach working with him that knows how that is accomplished and can also observe him while riding. I haven't read the book, but my understanding is that Obree was a loner and did everything himself.

So how exactly is he gonna flatten his back any more than he already does? Looks pretty darn flat to me.

 

[Anonymous]

do any of you **** talking clowns currently race? you know who you are the bitter tards who thinks with peds they would not suck. trust me you would anyways both physically and mentally as you play the victim role regarding your failures. any tough guy **** talking posters in socal want to do a little fast ride im in poor fitness as its winter and i have been sick but i bet im better and faster anyways pm me. or get a ****ing life sorry *** mo fos who get there kicks knocking actual competitors. get the **** off the site this is for fans of bike racing

Being a Cat 5 doesn't make you a racing expert Fred.

Talking tough on the internet about how hard of a pull you have only means you talk a talk. You can be anyone on the internet, all the cool kids do it.

 

[sniper]

Yep. You can see that he is doing everything he can to keep the air from heading straight into his hips. Very effective. He has a mild curve to his back. I assert that his performance would have been even better if he had flattened it out. But that requires a coach working with him that knows how that is accomplished and can also observe him while riding. I haven't read the book, but my understanding is that Obree was a loner and did everything himself.

So how exactly is he supposed to flatten his back any more than he already does? looks pretty darn flat to me.

 

[ricara]

So how exactly is he gonna flatten his back any more than he already does? Looks pretty darn flat to me.

It is pretty flat. For some reason I cannot embed images, only provide links. If you look at the links in my previous posts, all of those riders had flatter backs. The back is held straight by the muscles on each side of the spine. If the back is straight (including the juncture of the back to the pelvis -- very important), then the entire upper body rotates around the hip joints as you lean forward.

One big reason that people don't do this is because the saddle is not shaped correctly. The worst offender was the Selle Italia Concor saddle with the tipped-up nose, do you remember those? The saddle angle is also critical. (It also helps to be able to put up with numb genitalia as the blood flow is impeded at extreme forward rotations -- maybe this is no longer an issue with the cutaway "ergo" saddles.)

But the biggest trick is training people to ride with their backs straight. In my experience it requires a few months of dedicated riding. After that, a life-long habit is established. Then whether you are on a training ride on the tops of your bars or a solo breakaway in your drops or a time trial with aero bars, the flat back will keep your chest "opened up" for maximum breathing, and the rest of your organs operating efficiently and not cramped up.

I'm no Greg LeMond, but when I figured this stuff out my riding overall improved significantly. I was a skinny "mountain goat", but all of a sudden I became competitive in time-trials, too. There's certainly no drawbacks, except for a few calories burned by your back muscles.

 

[Race Radio]

do any of you **** talking clowns currently race? you know who you are the bitter tards who thinks with peds they would not suck. trust me you would anyways both physically and mentally as you play the victim role regarding your failures. any tough guy **** talking posters in socal want to do a little fast ride im in poor fitness as its winter and i have been sick but i bet im better and faster anyways pm me. or get a ****ing life sorry *** mo fos who get there kicks knocking actual competitors. get the **** off the site this is for fans of bike racing

Put down the glass and walk away from the computer....

 

[Hugh Januss]

Put down the glass and walk away from the computer....

Glass crack pipe, I think you mean.

 

[Hugh Januss]

do any of you **** talking clowns currently race? you know who you are the bitter tards who thinks with peds they would not suck. trust me you would anyways both physically and mentally as you play the victim role regarding your failures. any tough guy **** talking posters in socal want to do a little fast ride im in poor fitness as its winter and i have been sick but i bet im better and faster anyways pm me. or get a ****ing life sorry *** mo fos who get there kicks knocking actual competitors. get the **** off the site this is for fans of bike racing

So by the same token, we should not complain about corrupt politicians unless we are in the senate or a mayor? I should ignore this what with being in the Christmas Spirit and all but since it is Christmas Eve and I am still at my bike shop trying to figure out just how bad a Christmas it was, I am inclined to observe that you are a giant douchebag.

 

[red_flanders]

Copycat? Lance was the first of the Euro Pros to use aero bars.

Sure, we all know Greg used them in the 1989 Tour de France, some say unfairly...

But Lance was riding on aero bars legally in 1987. Before Greg.
Before any of the Euro Pros for that matter. Before Big Mig.

Yes, there were plenty of copycats.
That is the point of my OP lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HorLQHQ3pMc&feature=related
.
.
.

I saw at least 4 guys using TT bars in that video in the first 20 seconds.

WTF are you even talking about? The fact that triathletes (many) used them before they made their way into the pro peloton? Given. Obvious fact.

They called them "Tri-bars" at the time.

You have no point.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I saw at least 4 guys using TT bars in that video in the first 20 seconds.

WTF are you even talking about? The fact that triathletes (many) used them before they made their way into the pro peloton? Given. Obvious fact.

They called them "Tri-bars" at the time.

You have no point.

Oh yes he does.......you can't see it......he wears a hat.

 

[Anonymous]

Good:

Good:

Not:

Not:

 

[simo1733]

Good:

Good:

Not:

Not:

If you want to see a good TT position don't look at Lance Armstrong look at Kristin Armstrong.

 

[red_flanders]

That is one phat front chainring!

 

[FKLance]

It is pretty flat. For some reason I cannot embed images, only provide links. If you look at the links in my previous posts, all of those riders had flatter backs. The back is held straight by the muscles on each side of the spine. If the back is straight (including the juncture of the back to the pelvis -- very important), then the entire upper body rotates around the hip joints as you lean forward.

One big reason that people don't do this is because the saddle is not shaped correctly. The worst offender was the Selle Italia Concor saddle with the tipped-up nose, do you remember those? The saddle angle is also critical. (It also helps to be able to put up with numb genitalia as the blood flow is impeded at extreme forward rotations -- maybe this is no longer an issue with the cutaway "ergo" saddles.)

But the biggest trick is training people to ride with their backs straight. In my experience it requires a few months of dedicated riding. After that, a life-long habit is established. Then whether you are on a training ride on the tops of your bars or a solo breakaway in your drops or a time trial with aero bars, the flat back will keep your chest "opened up" for maximum breathing, and the rest of your organs operating efficiently and not cramped up.

I'm no Greg LeMond, but when I figured this stuff out my riding overall improved significantly. I was a skinny "mountain goat", but all of a sudden I became competitive in time-trials, too. There's certainly no drawbacks, except for a few calories burned by your back muscles.

Ok, you can be fast with a flat back.. I just do not see it as optimal.

If you go with a flat back, you are closing your hips entirely, thus you are only riding with your frontal leg muscles. I think Anquetil is the perfect example: He had the strongest back in the peloton and he was using an egg-position which made possible for him to use all of his powerful middle-body muscles in a hunched back position. How many times he won GP de Nations? 7, 9 times? If you look at Contador riding out of the saddle in the mountains, do you think he is using only his legs? he is using his entire body. I think people with a flat back should be working on the support muscles and their flexibility, and would probably find weaknesses.

I think saddle should be level or even a few mm upwards. Reason for this would be: when you move lower, you should go forward. When you go forward, you should go up because of knee angle.
With an egg-position you do not get any numbness whatsoever because you are sitting correctly on the bike. When you are comfortable, you can produce more power.