===========================coapman said:
So, that means that the PowerCrank is training the rider to do what in the area of TDC?
How would that training affect overall power generation?
Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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Thanks!
So, that means that the PowerCrank is training the rider to do what in the area of TDC?
How would that training affect overall power generation?
Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
JayKosta said:
It's training a rider to tow and force the pedal/crank up and over TDC, something that can be done more efficiently by the momentum of the other leg when using standard cranks, which is why riders revert back to their natural style on their return to standard cranks. As for the effect on power generation, that answer can be found in research done to date, it does not change. Their advantage could come from creating a more resistance free path for the crank around the pedalling circle by teaching a rider the objectives of the basic circular style.
Gosh darn, just saved up some money to buy some Powercranks to put Franks claims to the test and now Jim Martin tells me he is coming to NZ.
Gonna spend my dough on picking the brain of one of the foremost minds when it comes to understanding pedalling, cranks length and cycling performance.
Gonna spend my dough on picking the brain of one of the foremost minds when it comes to understanding pedalling, cranks length and cycling performance.
CoachFergie said:
Hope you didn't buy new. there are some on ebay right now for $50.
Be anxious to hear about your discussions with Jim Martin.
Yes, be great to get information from such a credible source who has actually performed real research on so many areas in cycling where others just make bizarre marketing claims.
Re:
Never touched a set of PowerCranks in his life.
Peter McDonald was 26 when he first bought a bike and started racing, 18 months later he had a contract with Drapac - Porsche. At 29 he was Australian champ, beating Michael Rogers and Adam Hansen in a 3 up sprint.FrankDay said:From Ken Lundgren of Elite Endurance Training Systems
In this picture she looks 12 to me but she is 31. Congratulations to her. Has anyone ever heard of anyone going from newbie to pro any faster?
Never touched a set of PowerCranks in his life.
Re:
My wife (formerly Angie Vargas) was picked to ride the thirteen stage, 12 d Hewlett Packard LaserJet International Women's Challenge in her 2nd year of racing. Out of ~150 starters, she finished 68th on G.C., ahead of all but 21 other riders from the U.S.:
http://www.truesport.com/Bike/1999/hpwomen.htm#FINAL
Not bad, really, when you consider 1) she's not built like a climber, and 2) that was her first-ever trip to altitude.
Like Fergie said about the Aussie rider, she never used PowerCranks (were they even around back then?). In fact, when we used an SRM w/ torque analysis option to determine her pattern of force application during two-legged and single-legged counterweighted pedaling almost a decade later, we discovered that it was quite unusual (see below). Never seemed to slow her down any, though!
FrankDay said:
My wife (formerly Angie Vargas) was picked to ride the thirteen stage, 12 d Hewlett Packard LaserJet International Women's Challenge in her 2nd year of racing. Out of ~150 starters, she finished 68th on G.C., ahead of all but 21 other riders from the U.S.:
http://www.truesport.com/Bike/1999/hpwomen.htm#FINAL
Not bad, really, when you consider 1) she's not built like a climber, and 2) that was her first-ever trip to altitude.
Like Fergie said about the Aussie rider, she never used PowerCranks (were they even around back then?). In fact, when we used an SRM w/ torque analysis option to determine her pattern of force application during two-legged and single-legged counterweighted pedaling almost a decade later, we discovered that it was quite unusual (see below). Never seemed to slow her down any, though!
Re: Re:
Has she ever given a verbal or written description of how she 'thought' she was pedaling?
e.g. mashing, circular, 'scrapping mud at the bottom', 'kicking forward at the top', etc.
Or perhaps that is simply her 'natural technique' without any thoughts about specific ways to intervene for increased power, speed, etc.
Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Yes, interesting graph.acoggan said:...
In fact, when we used an SRM w/ torque analysis option to determine her pattern of force application during two-legged and single-legged counterweighted pedaling almost a decade later, we discovered that it was quite unusual (see below). Never seemed to slow her down any, though!
Has she ever given a verbal or written description of how she 'thought' she was pedaling?
e.g. mashing, circular, 'scrapping mud at the bottom', 'kicking forward at the top', etc.
Or perhaps that is simply her 'natural technique' without any thoughts about specific ways to intervene for increased power, speed, etc.
Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Re: Re:
Fortunately for her, she never received any coaching or instruction telling her how she should pedal. IOW, this is (was) her "natural" technique.
As for why, I have hypothesized that is because she was originally an inline skater (i.e., kick back hard but shut down early to avoid slippage, forcefully yank your foot/boot back into position, repeat the process).
Another bit of trivia: no matter how steep the grade, she never climbed out-of-the-saddle, preferring to remain seated and grind away. That may because standing loads her thighs the way a "normal" person pedals, which is something she was not accustomed to doing.
One other factoid: she is (was) rather efficient (in the proper use of the term), essentially just as efficient as I am (even though I pedal more "classically"). Based on force-velocity testing, she's also heavily skewed towards the slow-twitch end of the spectrum, which is another thing we have in common.
JayKosta said:
Fortunately for her, she never received any coaching or instruction telling her how she should pedal. IOW, this is (was) her "natural" technique.
As for why, I have hypothesized that is because she was originally an inline skater (i.e., kick back hard but shut down early to avoid slippage, forcefully yank your foot/boot back into position, repeat the process).
Another bit of trivia: no matter how steep the grade, she never climbed out-of-the-saddle, preferring to remain seated and grind away. That may because standing loads her thighs the way a "normal" person pedals, which is something she was not accustomed to doing.
One other factoid: she is (was) rather efficient (in the proper use of the term), essentially just as efficient as I am (even though I pedal more "classically"). Based on force-velocity testing, she's also heavily skewed towards the slow-twitch end of the spectrum, which is another thing we have in common.
Re: Re:
How is her torque return from total force applied to pedals "pedalling effectiveness" or external pedalling efficiency.
acoggan said:
How is her torque return from total force applied to pedals "pedalling effectiveness" or external pedalling efficiency.
Re: Re:
No idea on so-called "effectiveness", since 1) even w/ the torque analysis option, an SRM only measure the tangential torque, and 2) she's never used my Garmin Vectors.
As for her efficiency (in the proper use of the term), as I mentioned she's pretty efficient (as am I...that's what comes with being a slow-twitcher).
backdoor said:
No idea on so-called "effectiveness", since 1) even w/ the torque analysis option, an SRM only measure the tangential torque, and 2) she's never used my Garmin Vectors.
As for her efficiency (in the proper use of the term), as I mentioned she's pretty efficient (as am I...that's what comes with being a slow-twitcher).
Re: Re:
I'm surprised you friend J M has not given this technique a thorough analysis. Because her high torque application is restricted to such a reduced sector, it must put increased stress on her muscles. The efficiency you are referring to should be called "cycling efficiency".
acoggan said:
I'm surprised you friend J M has not given this technique a thorough analysis. Because her high torque application is restricted to such a reduced sector, it must put increased stress on her muscles. The efficiency you are referring to should be called "cycling efficiency".
Re: Re:
Since this is a combined torque graph how do you know what she is doing or not doing on the backstroke. How do you interpret this?
Which of those graphs is the counterweighted single legged pedaling graph? What was the size of the counterweight?
What about the graph do you consider to be "quite unusual"?
Wouldn't this be better in the pedaling technique thread?acoggan said:FrankDay said:
My wife (formerly Angie Vargas) was picked to ride the thirteen stage, 12 d Hewlett Packard LaserJet International Women's Challenge in her 2nd year of racing. Out of ~150 starters, she finished 68th on G.C., ahead of all but 21 other riders from the U.S.:
http://www.truesport.com/Bike/1999/hpwomen.htm#FINAL
Not bad, really, when you consider 1) she's not built like a climber, and 2) that was her first-ever trip to altitude.
Like Fergie said about the Aussie rider, she never used PowerCranks (were they even around back then?). In fact, when we used an SRM w/ torque analysis option to determine her pattern of force application during two-legged and single-legged counterweighted pedaling almost a decade later, we discovered that it was quite unusual (see below). Never seemed to slow her down any, though!
Since this is a combined torque graph how do you know what she is doing or not doing on the backstroke. How do you interpret this?
Which of those graphs is the counterweighted single legged pedaling graph? What was the size of the counterweight?
What about the graph do you consider to be "quite unusual"?
Re: Re:
Garmin Vectprs give a torque analysis now? Thought all you got was L/R power. Could you show us an example.acoggan said:
Are you saying muscle fiber composition is the only variable?
Re: Re:
Comprehension never was your strong point Frank. It's quite clear Andy never said this was the only factor.FrankDay said:
Re: Re:
Looking at this graph, she appears to be a stomper who applies all her force so fast that it peaks 30 degrees before the most effective torque return spot of the natural down stroke. That was why I asked for her torque/total pedal force value. It should be very inefficient.
FrankDay said:Wouldn't this be better in the pedaling technique thread?acoggan said:FrankDay said:
My wife (formerly Angie Vargas) was picked to ride the thirteen stage, 12 d Hewlett Packard LaserJet International Women's Challenge in her 2nd year of racing. Out of ~150 starters, she finished 68th on G.C., ahead of all but 21 other riders from the U.S.:
http://www.truesport.com/Bike/1999/hpwomen.htm#FINAL
Not bad, really, when you consider 1) she's not built like a climber, and 2) that was her first-ever trip to altitude.
Like Fergie said about the Aussie rider, she never used PowerCranks (were they even around back then?). In fact, when we used an SRM w/ torque analysis option to determine her pattern of force application during two-legged and single-legged counterweighted pedaling almost a decade later, we discovered that it was quite unusual (see below). Never seemed to slow her down any, though!
Since this is a combined torque graph how do you know what she is doing or not doing on the backstroke. How do you interpret this?
Which of those graphs is the counterweighted single legged pedaling graph? What was the size of the counterweight?
What about the graph do you consider to be "quite unusual"?
Looking at this graph, she appears to be a stomper who applies all her force so fast that it peaks 30 degrees before the most effective torque return spot of the natural down stroke. That was why I asked for her torque/total pedal force value. It should be very inefficient.
Re: Re:
Even though it is not possible to know for sure since this is a combined torque graph I am impressed with how high the torque is at the top and the bottom compared to the up and down. Many people have almost zero torque at top and bottom and hers is close to 20% of her peak. I think this is probably much more "circular" than average although, as everyone knows, I think it could be better.backdoor said:FrankDay said:Wouldn't this be better in the pedaling technique thread?acoggan said:FrankDay said:
My wife (formerly Angie Vargas) was picked to ride the thirteen stage, 12 d Hewlett Packard LaserJet International Women's Challenge in her 2nd year of racing. Out of ~150 starters, she finished 68th on G.C., ahead of all but 21 other riders from the U.S.:
http://www.truesport.com/Bike/1999/hpwomen.htm#FINAL
Not bad, really, when you consider 1) she's not built like a climber, and 2) that was her first-ever trip to altitude.
Like Fergie said about the Aussie rider, she never used PowerCranks (were they even around back then?). In fact, when we used an SRM w/ torque analysis option to determine her pattern of force application during two-legged and single-legged counterweighted pedaling almost a decade later, we discovered that it was quite unusual (see below). Never seemed to slow her down any, though!
Since this is a combined torque graph how do you know what she is doing or not doing on the backstroke. How do you interpret this?
Which of those graphs is the counterweighted single legged pedaling graph? What was the size of the counterweight?
What about the graph do you consider to be "quite unusual"?
Looking at this graph, she appears to be a stomper who applies all her force so fast that it peaks 30 degrees before the most effective torque return spot of the natural down stroke. That was why I asked for her torque/total pedal force value. It should be very inefficient.
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