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Amsterhammer

Amsterhammer

Jun 22, 2009
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I'm conflicted.

As a Barca fan I automatically dislike Real, and would therefore have a preference for Atletico. I started liking Barca and disliking Real on principle back in the Franco days, for purely political reasons.

As a lover of the game, however, Real has played much more attractive football this season than any other team I regularly see, so my preference would go to them on that basis.

But, another consideration as a lover of the game, is the appreciation for Simeone's awesome achievement with his squad this season. I will not be supporting either finalist as fanatically as I supported Atletico tonight. Thankfully, I've still got three weeks to make up my mind.;)
 
The Hitch

The Hitch

Jun 14, 2010
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I think I'd prefer Real Amster for the reason that it would hurt Mourinho that he couldn't win it or get to the final in 3 years at Real, and then the second he leaves, they win the Champions League again

Great to watch him get totally outplayed today by a weaker team .
 
gooner

gooner

Mar 25, 2013
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I think this tweet by a British journalist last night sums up the great job that Simeone has done.

Matt Dickinson ‏@DickinsonTimes 9 hrs
Atletico revenues approx €120m so no reason why Newcastle fans can't dream of reaching Champions League final..
Click to expand...
Amsterhammer said:
I'm conflicted.

As a Barca fan I automatically dislike Real, and would therefore have a preference for Atletico. I started liking Barca and disliking Real on principle back in the Franco days, for purely political reasons.

As a lover of the game, however, Real has played much more attractive football this season than any other team I regularly see, so my preference would go to them on that basis.

But, another consideration as a lover of the game, is the appreciation for Simeone's awesome achievement with his squad this season. I will not be supporting either finalist as fanatically as I supported Atletico tonight. Thankfully, I've still got three weeks to make up my mind.;)
Click to expand...

Recently I read a book by Sid Lowe on the rivalry with Barca and Real and how came to what it is taking in the Franco days along the way. It was out last September and it got great reviews.

A brilliant read if you're interested in it.

http://www.amazon.com/Fear-Loathing-La-Liga-Barcelona/dp/0224091786

Review: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/nov/07/fear-loathing-liga-sid-lowe-review
 
The Hitch

The Hitch

Jun 14, 2010
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With the money from winning la liga and from making the champs league final, will atletico be able to keep their best players?
 
P

pmcg76

Mar 6, 2009
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The Hitch said:
With the money from winning la liga and from making the champs league final, will atletico be able to keep their best players?
Click to expand...

There was already talk about Diego Costa going to Chelsea next season, Courtois the goalie is on loan from Chelsea so there is a feeling he will be included as a sweetner to entice Costa.

It is always nice to see an outsider outdo the big boys but usually the tean breaks up pretty quickly, Porto and Monaco who were the finalists 10 years ago are examples of that. You always wonder why you would leave a team that can reach CL final to go somewhere else but then you realise it's about the money. Finance has distorted football as much as doping has distorted cycling.
 
gooner

gooner

Mar 25, 2013
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The Hitch said:
With the money from winning la liga and from making the champs league final, will atletico be able to keep their best players?
Click to expand...

pmcg76 said:
There was already talk about Diego Costa going to Chelsea next season, Courtois the goalie is on loan from Chelsea so there is a feeling he will be included as a sweetner to entice Costa.

It is always nice to see an outsider outdo the big boys but usually the tean breaks up pretty quickly, Porto and Monaco who were the finalists 10 years ago are examples of that. You always wonder why you would leave a team that can reach CL final to go somewhere else but then you realise it's about the money. Finance has distorted football as much as doping has distorted cycling.
Click to expand...

Costa will probably be about it. Clubs will have a try with Koke but he signed a new deal. Moyes was interested in him before he was sacked and Scholes and P.Neville were at the game last night. Raul Garcia, their second highest scorer was out of contract but he has signed one. I don't think they will suffer too much and when you look at how they replaced Torres with Aguero and Forlan and when they left, they got Falcao, afterwards when he went to Monaco, they gave Costa a more prominent role as well as signing Villa, it shows they have done well at replacing their top players.

The squad players might be on the move. Alderweireld who was signed last summer has said he would like more chances.

Lets hope the TV rights deal will be divided more evenly at the next tender. I wouldn't be optimistic. Until that happens, Atletico's success will probably be more in isolation that being more of the norm going into future long term.
 
The Hitch

The Hitch

Jun 14, 2010
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Samson777 said:
Sounds like BS to me.

You think United would have finished out of europe qualification with Fergie? Moyes was probably hung out yes and there was probably a reason for this. But how does it change the fact, that it comes down to the manager?

- You think Crystal Palace would have avoided relegation at this point, without changing to Pulis?

- You think Liverpool would have been running for the title with Hodgson still in charge?

- Could Atletico have been in the CL final, had they appointed Alan Pardew instead of Simeone?

don't buy it..

And to get back to subject; I am sure SKY's dominance is all down to good coaching and Balisford beeing a tactical mastermind, with eye for all the marginal gains. Otherwise how do you explain the succes of a clean team like SKY?
Click to expand...
Placebo effect probably plays a role. The media hypes managers so much and they get such huge contracts everyone starts to believe the hype and then these intangible forces of mounting pressure and distrust of decisions come into play. or after a successful spell there's the belief that comes. Often it's just a rollercoaster and the people who fall in the right places at the right time ride the waves. That's how it works In history too with world leaders who join when economy is on the rise, seen as better than those when it's down for example.

Let's be honest, if tactics were that big a deal they wouldn't be employing former big name footballers as managers so often. They are not known to be the brightest bulbs;) give Gary kasparov a football for dummies book and by the end of the week he would probably be a better tactician than any of the current managers.
 
Catwhoorg

Catwhoorg

Aug 24, 2011
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Didn't Moyes have a better first season than Fergie ?

The Board should have given him 2 years no matter what results came, just to try to bed in.
 
stutue

stutue

BANNED
Apr 22, 2014
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Did this all start when somebody mentioned Peters? It seems an age ago.

With regards to Peters, I don't think he's a magician, but I think he probably possesses some of the motivational skills that really excellent managers (in many walks of life) have even though they arent 'psychiatrists' and might not hold qualifications.

There is no doubt Fergie was a good manager.

But Moyes was a bad manager in that situation.
A good management of that situation wouldn't have had players not giving him a chance. Not through brute force but because they would want to work with him.

That's good management. Getting people to motivate themselves such that they don't even realise they are being managed.
 
2

20SecondsToComply

BANNED
Apr 1, 2014
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Catwhoorg said:
Didn't Moyes have a better first season than Fergie ?

The Board should have given him 2 years no matter what results came, just to try to bed in.
Click to expand...

Unless I looked it up I wouldnt be sure, but lets assume its true. The problem now is that football (and definitely top flight) is now a business and not a sport. ManU is a quoted company - poor results (ie no Champ League) = less TV money / revenue. The whole model has changed.
 
Samson777

Samson777

Mar 12, 2013
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The Hitch said:
Placebo effect probably plays a role. The media hypes managers so much and they get such huge contracts everyone starts to believe the hype and then these intangible forces of mounting pressure and distrust of decisions come into play. or after a successful spell there's the belief that comes. Often it's just a rollercoaster and the people who fall in the right places at the right time ride the waves.

Let's be honest, if tactics were that big a deal they wouldn't be employing former big name footballers as managers so often. They are not known to be the brightest bulbs;) give Gary kasparov a football for dummies book and by the end of the weak he would probably be a better tactician than any of the current managers.
Click to expand...
It was never claimed that being a manager is only about tactics.. Otherwise the kind of managers employed, would of course be different. That's not very difficult to conclude.

Are you suggestion that it is just a coincidence who get's success and who doesn't? Only down to wawes? Of course they get pressure and of course it means something if they have belief or not. But how does that change the fact, that managers are more important than the Chef? Unless of course, the Chef is the guy bringing all the drugs to the team. In that case it can probably be worth a discussion who is the most important.

To kind of repeat myself: You seriously think that Pardew would have been able to take Atletico to the CL final? If he had been hired instead of Simone, which I guess would mean that Pardew had been in the right place at the right time.. Or you think Manchester United would have finished 7th with Ancelotti in charge?
 
Benotti69

Benotti69

May 26, 2010
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Samson777 said:
Sounds like BS to me.

You think United would have finished out of europe qualification with Fergie? Moyes was probably hung out yes and there was probably a reason for this. But how does it change the fact, that it comes down to the manager?

- You think Crystal Palace would have avoided relegation at this point, without changing to Pulis?

- You think Liverpool would have been running for the title with Hodgson still in charge?

- Could Atletico have been in the CL final, had they appointed Alan Pardew instead of Simeone?

don't buy it..
Click to expand...

"It hardly matters who succeeds David Moyes as manager of Manchester United. It hardly matters even to Manchester United supporters. What matters most to the success of clubs in the English Premier League is not really the manager or even the huge amount of money spent on transfer fees – the evidence is that this is largely wasted. What matters is the size of the wage bill.

This determined 92 per cent in the variation of the league positions of the Premiership clubs during the period 1991 to 2000, according to data published in Soccernomics by Simon Kuper and Stefan Szymanski."



http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/why...-have-stuck-with-david-moyes-1.1777778?page=1

Based on data the authors and others have assembled, Soccernomics claims: “The vast bulk of managers appear to have almost no impact on their teams’ performance and do not last very long in the job. They seem to add so little value that it is tempting to think they could be replaced by their secretaries, or their chairmen, or stuffed teddy bears, without the club’s league position changing.” Jamie Carragher, the recently retired Liverpool defender, is quoted as saying: “If you assemble a squad of players with talent and the right attitude and character, you’ll win more football matches than you lose, no matter how inventive your training sessions, what systems you play, what team talks you give.”
Click to expand...


'Soccernomics' by Simon Kuper and Stefan Szymanski

http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/
 
roundabout

roundabout

Jun 7, 2010
19,196
3,092
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Catwhoorg said:
Didn't Moyes have a better first season than Fergie ?

The Board should have given him 2 years no matter what results came, just to try to bed in.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong as I follow football less closely than some people here, but I think Moyes had essentially the same team that won last year and could not get anywhere near challenging
 
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