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The real Tennis thread.

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Over 1.96 lenght becomes a liability rather then a strenght. Raonic is a rather weird case because of his build, long legs, and long arms. Very few players over 1.90 that move expectionally well. From the top of my head, only Monfils and Murray are very good movers. It is no surprise that the game recently has been dominated by players in the 1.80-1.90 range. They can be the elite movers in the game without being underpowered. I don't think that will change. The very tall players are usually more injury prone, less consistent and more serve-dependent players. There's only so much you can win by serving better.

The most important metric in tennis is usually the % of games won, they usually add %serve games won and %return games won. So an average player may hold serve 80% of the time, and break 20% of the time, adding up to 100. Slam winners are typicaly around 120 for the tournament. Now the best baseliners and rally players can go up from that, despite possibly having an average serve. The tallest players, however, may serve huge and hold over 95% of their games at times, they get rather poor movement and as a result they're pretty bad at breaking serve.

Raonic, who is now in the Wimbledon final. He has the fastest serve on the Tour right now, and holds 96% (!) of the time. Yet despite his improved ground game, he only breaks 14% of the time, which is still below average. Thus, Raonic is at 110, and wins around 55% of games. Only one Ivanisevic won Wimbledon, winning a lower percentage of games at 54%.

Murray otoh, doesn't have one of the best first serves in the world, and his 2nd serve is typically vulnerable. Yet due to his superior ground game, he's holding 91% of the time, and he's breaking 39% of the time, adding up to 130, winning 65% of the games he's played. 10% difference in games won, all due to superior ground game.

There's basically a trade off, between movement and power, the taller you get. However, this doesn't apply to players below 1.80, because a tennis court is big enough for speed to be more important than acceleration, not to mention reach being very important as well. Over 1.90 you slowly start to get worse movement, which hurts both serving and returning game, and the increase in power only helps to a degree. Tall, big game players are usually dangerous and have more chance of blowing hot and cold.

Naturally, there are individual differences. There's some very good servers under 180, and some players of almost 2 meters move somewhat decently. The ideal length is probably between 1.85 and 1.90. Changes in technology and court surfaces ahve put more emphasis on athletic ability. As such, I think that shorter players that are too underpowered have a harder time making it. They can obviously become pro, or even win ATP titles, (look at Diego Schartzmann, who is 1.69 I believe) but at the top of the game, where edges are thin and they're all great athletes, being underpowered is just gonna make the difference between being a top 10 player and a slam champion.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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good stuff.

in the end a small guy without a strong serve can play brilliant tennis but will never make it to a slam final (e.g. gasquet); a tall guy with a big serve but moderate tennis skills like raonic *can* make it to a slam final.

if in , say, 10 years time, the raonic type of player would become too dominant, it could really become a problem for the image of tennis.
i'm not sure if there'd be an easy solution in terms of how to make the serve less important.
 
Re:

sniper said:
good stuff.

in the end a small guy without a strong serve can play brilliant tennis but will never make it to a slam final (e.g. gasquet); a tall guy with a big serve but moderate tennis skills like raonic *can* make it to a slam final.

if in , say, 10 years time, the raonic type of player would become too dominant, it could really become a problem for the image of tennis.
i'm not sure if there'd be an easy solution in terms of how to make the serve less important.
Gasquet is 1.85 or something, he's not vertically challenged, he just has a mediocre serve. I doubt players like Raonic will ever be dominant, unless they can back it up with a really good ground game
 
Well, that's kind of the point. A guy like Gasquet is 1.85, a good 5 cm above average in every country on the planet, and yet is considered small.

And its not just the serve. Its as much the fact that in todays topspin game, taller guys can deal much better with the bounce
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Williams' aggressive reaction after some points yesterday, or Murray just now after getting that break in the first set. So not gentleman like.
I will never get used to that. Has nothing to do with tennis the way I know it.

Fwiw, Murray in straight sets seems likely.
 
Murray deserved a third slam. Sort of eases the pain of this summer for Brits a little: Brexit; Gove almost becoming PM; political turmoil; no opposition; no actual government; football hooliganism; football flops; pound becoming really weak; a nation divided. This will lighten the mood a bit for them.
 
Re:

Brullnux said:
Murray deserved a third slam. Sort of eases the pain of this summer for Brits a little: Brexit; Gove almost becoming PM; political turmoil; no opposition; no actual government; football hooliganism; football flops; pound becoming really weak; a nation divided. This will lighten the mood a bit for them.
You do know Britain is made up of more countries than England surely? I wouldn't describe how Wales or Northern Ireland performed as flops. And indeed there was no hooliganism with them. It's a football thread so I'll leave it at that.

Oh, and really really done Portugal, I for one was happy to see Ronaldo living every second for his team after he went off (ps how those engravers keep their nerve without shaking to carve the winner's name on the trophy is fantastic!!) :)
 
No surprises in either final. Not a vintage year but glad to see Murray win. Murray and Djoko looks to be the ongoing rivalry as Federer is still playing well but on the fade and Nadal is always injured and probably early retirement is on the cards for him.Williams just seems unstoppable most times.
 
Jan 24, 2012
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Nadal is 30 now, it's not too early. I think he should go all in for one more RG if his body can still handle it. Otherwise it's time to go probably.
 
Re: Re:

ferryman said:
Brullnux said:
Murray deserved a third slam. Sort of eases the pain of this summer for Brits a little: Brexit; Gove almost becoming PM; political turmoil; no opposition; no actual government; football hooliganism; football flops; pound becoming really weak; a nation divided. This will lighten the mood a bit for them.
You do know Britain is made up of more countries than England surely? I wouldn't describe how Wales or Northern Ireland performed as flops. And indeed there was no hooliganism with them. It's a football thread so I'll leave it at that.

Oh, and really really done Portugal, I for one was happy to see Ronaldo living every second for his team after he went off (ps how those engravers keep their nerve without shaking to carve the winner's name on the trophy is fantastic!!) :)

Yes I know, but 50/60 million are in England, and 6 in scotland leaving only 4 million people happy about the football. And Scotland I guess seeing England do shite. Murray is a proud scot so not sure this victory counts as UK or Scotland. For now UK, until Scotland leaves. I'll migrate north when that happens.
 
Re:

Red Rick said:
Murray is really commited to team GB. He's likely gonna play Davis Cup in Serbia on clay, even though that's totally the wrong thing to do with what's on the schedule in the next 2/3 months.

He supported Scottish Independence, though. He does this for Scotland considering most of that team is Scottish. Jamie and Andy could theoretically win a Davis Cup on their own with another random scottish dude.
 
And just when you think Murray may challenge for #1 this year, he skips the Rogers Cup, where he's defending champion ahead of the Olympics. Fed and Rafa also not playing. Djokovic has 1000 very easy points for the taking.

Djokovic is the huge favourite for OG though, as the surface apparently is the same as at the Aussie Open
 
So yesterday, 17 year old Denis Shapovalov beat Nick Kyrgios in the first round of the Rogers Cup. Really impressive performance by Shapo, though it was one of the worst display's from Kyrgios I've seen this year. Really like Shapo's game. Tall, lefty, big, clean strokes with a very nice ohbh. I see that kid going far.
 
Kyrgios is still seen as un up and comer, no disputing that, but here he is getting beat by a dude that's four years younger than he is!! Should be interesting to see what those two, Zverev, Kachanov, Thiem, and a few others are able to do with their careers. Not all of them will win slams, I don't think, but I'll venture and say at least one or two of them will. The top 4 or 5 guys right now won't play forever. Perhaps we'll see another guy that's been there or thereabouts win a shocker, like Tsonga, Berdych, Gasquet...Perhaps Cilic, after his DC heroics, Wawrinka, or Del Potro will (after an unfortunate string of injuries over the years) will add to their slam titles. Hopefully with Federer and dare I say Nadal (though he hasn't been a factor since the Roland Garros in 2014, and he barely got over the finish line in that one) nearing the end of their careers, there will be some openings, but Djokovic is as good as ever and Murray will always snail his pathetic body language around and contend for a couple more years at least (though I think he won't win more than two slams before he calls it quits). Who else is there? Raonic made a great run at Wimbledon. We'll see if he can keep the momentum and keep improving his overall game. Nishikori just doesn't have the firepower and he's gonna be 27 soon. Not sure what his prospects are at this point in his career. Can he win a slam? Sure. Will he? Not sure.
 
Zverev has been doing amazing this year, though still he could've done even better. Was one putaway volley away from beating Nadal at IW, and lost a very winnable final in Halle (ATP 500, huge for the kid). Borna Coric seems to have stagnated quite a bit, but that was to be expected. He likes to think of himself as the new Djokovic, but he's technically limited and there's not that much upside to his game. Taylor Fritz started the year off great, but has had a rough stretch lately. I think he's been making bad choices for his career, including getting married at 18. Then there's a few others I haven't followed closely.

Problem with Kyrgios is totally mental. Technically has the game to take it almost to anybody, and he absolutely loves the big occasion. Thiem had a great early 6 months, but totally overplayed and seems a bit off now. But then he'll likely finish the year top 8.

There's so many aging players on Tour right now. People think Djokovic is peaking when he's 29, but I think it's just the majority of direct competitors being even older then him, with the group after him being relatively useless. Raonic has no ground game, Nishikori is injured all the time, Dimitrov smashes more rackets than winning matches. Still, Djokovic and Murray will stop dominating sooner rather than later.
 
Federer just ended his season. Saying on his FB page that he needs to take time off to rehabilitate from his knee surgery from earlier this year. He also says he's planning on playing on the tour for another few years. I am not sure that will happen. Even if his rehabilitation goes to plan and he's fit going into next season, he'll be 35/36 during the season. I think he'll call it quits at the end of next season. I just don't see him playing 'another FEW seasons.' Technically he can still play and be competitive, but winning another slam or two? I hope I am wrong, but this year's Wimbledon may have been his best opportunity to win another slam. His last slam win was Wimbledon 2012, when he beat Murray.

So obviously no Olympics and US Open for Fed this year. I highly doubt he'll stick around until 2020 and play the Olympics at age 39?!?
 
He wasn't playing very well at Wimbly. Aussie open were some of the last very good matches he's played. In tough matches you can just see how far his ground game has detoriated. That comeback vs Cilic might just be the last huge match he'll ever win. He'll likely drop from #3 to about #16 before the end of the year. That means a lot tougher draws at the big tournies as well, which is a huge thing considering the quality of players he's been losing to.

I don't know to which end Federer believes he can still challenge for big titles, and to which degree he could be happy being far over your peak and basically just existing on Tour. It's not like he's a man for whom tennis is the only thing he has.