Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[AmRacer]

I literally wrote that Rogla had to abandon, what’s your problem?

Problem? I don't have any, do you?

 

[Charlyghoul]

Simoni had no chance at the Tour, his TT was abhorent, when at the time there were two 50 km tts.

But not In last years tour.
Simoni and Cunego knew their level was giro, no shame in it

 

[Extinction]

What has Remco done at the tour besides a third place which Simoni could have probably got if he trained for it?

Simoni hated the Tour, saying in 2004 he never hoped to return, that nobody dared attack Armstrong and that US Postal set the agenda. Not exactly someone who had the legs for the race. There is a reason he never based a season on the Grand Bouclé.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Simoni hated the Tour, saying in 2004 he never hoped to return, that nobody dared attack Armstrong and that US Postal set the agenda. Not exactly someone who had the legs for the race. There is a reason he never based a season on the Grand Bouclé.

I guess he was right really, like I said he knew his level.
I think he could have finished higher if he wanted to chase a podium, like Remco seems to want to.
He raced instead and was successful at the giro.
Remco should take a foglia out of Simonis libro

 

[Extinction]

Still as far as the giro goes it’s Simoni > Roglic.

I’d like to say I never said Cunego was better than Remco, only that he had a better single win, because I think a Giro is behind only the tour in palmares.

The Giro has come back of late, but it hasn't fully returned to its former status. This year without Pogacar and Vingegaard at the Vuelta it wasn't as prestigious. The Giro was second in palmares when the greats rode Giro-Tour in the same season. This now is rarely the case, whereas it's much more likely to see top Tour riders at the Vuelta, because of the calendar position. It's not the event that makes the riders, but the riders that make the event.

 

[Red Rick]

Let Evenepoel do 2 consecutive GTs before we flame Simoni for his Tours that always came off the back of a Giro GC bid.

 

[Charlyghoul]

The Giro has come back of late, but it hasn't fully returned to its former status. This year without Pogacar and Vingegaard at the Vuelta it wasn't as prestigious. The Giro was second in palmares when the greats rode Giro-Tour in the same season. This now is rarely the case, whereas it's much more likely to see top Tour riders at the Vuelta, because of the calendar position. It's not the event that makes the riders, but the riders that make the event.

Vuelta is bigger now but I don’t think it’s overtaken the Giro yet. You could only really say that it’s been bigger because of Roglic winning it a lot.

Giro had one or two poor winners lately but there’s a reason Kelly, Kuss, Horner, Valverde and perhaps yes even Remco have only won the Vuelta…

 

[Extinction]

I guess he was right really, like I said he knew his level.
I think he could have finished higher if he wanted to chase a podium, like Remco seems to want to.
He raced instead and was successful at the giro.
Remco should take a foglia out of Simonis libro

Remco has a bigger engine than Simoni, who had a good one for the Giro in his day, but not the Tour. Had Pantani not fallen, however, Simoni would not even have won the Giro. He filled a gap at an oportunistic moment. By contrast, Remco came in at the unfortunate time of Pogacar and Vingegaard and in edition has been plagued with career setbacks.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Remco has a bigger engine than Simoni, who had a good one for the Giro in his day, but not the Tour. Had Pantani not fallen, however, Simoni would not even have won the Giro. He filled a gap at an oportunistic moment. By contrast, Remco came in at the unfortunate time of Pogacar and Vingegaard and in edition has been plagued with career setbacks.

Simoni had 7 podium finishes and two wins, he was hardly lucky or inconsistent.
Remco’s problem is that he’s all over the place, he’s not good enough to win the tour at the moment but doesn’t seem content to go for a giro.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Remco’s time is now or never really. He should be entering his physical prime and he’s got a nice new team.
He should go all out for a giro

 

[Extinction]

Vuelta is bigger now but I don’t think it’s overtaken the Giro yet. You could only really say that it’s been bigger because of Roglic winning it a lot.

Giro had one or two poor winners lately but there’s a reason Kelly, Kuss, Horner, Valverde and perhaps yes even Remco have only won the Vuelta…

Kelly, Kuss, Horner, Valverde were never real Tour candidates, winning the Vuelta was the best they could do (Kelly when it was decidedly third GT tier, Kuss as a team gift). The Giro was always second status GT until the UCI changed the calendar at a moment when performance science was taking over and riding the Giro before the Tour seemed imprudent. At that moment the Vuelta gained in status. Pantani's downfall in 99 was a disaster for the race, then, when things seemed to be getting better Basso was hit with OP, then Riccò, then Contador always in troubled times. Whereas over this period the Vuelta announced the upcoming stars, from Armstrong to Froome and Pogacar.

 

[Extinction]

Simoni had 7 podium finishes and two wins, he was hardly lucky or inconsistent.
Remco’s problem is that he’s all over the place, he’s not good enough to win the tour at the moment but doesn’t seem content to go for a giro.

He was perfectly content to go for the Giro twice, but each time was plagued by fate. Only then has he turned to the Tour. He's not all over the place, but struggling to have solid preparation for his goals in an age of Pogacar and Vingegaard. His trajectory was thrown off track since the Lombardia crash, worsened by a team that made many management mistakes. I'm not saying he would have won the Tour otherwise, but his career would have been different up to now.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Kelly, Kuss, Horner, Valverde were never real Tour candidates, winning the Vuelta was the best they could do (Kelly when it was decidedly third GT tier, Kuss as a team gift). The Giro was always second status GT until the UCI changed the calendar at a moment when performance science was taking over and riding the Giro before the Tour seemed imprudent. At that moment the Vuelta gained in status. Pantani's downfall in 99 was a disaster for the race, then, when things seemed to be getting better Basso was hit with OP, then Riccò, then Contador always in troubled times. Whereas over this period the Vuelta announced the upcoming stars, from Armstrong to Froome and Pogacar.

That’s all true but the Giro is still bigger than the Vuelta as a win.
Look at the last ten years of the giro, 4 tdf winners, the last ten in the Vuelta, only one.

 

[topcat]

Let me get this straight: Ilmaestro started this Cunego vs Remco tirade, destroyed the thread and then disappeared.
P.S. My granny used to say "If you can't say anything good about someone, then don't say anything at all"

 

[Charlyghoul]

Let me get this straight: Ilmaestro started this Cunego vs Remco tirade, destroyed the thread and then disappeared.
P.S. My granny used to say "If you can't say anything good about someone, then don't say anything at all"

Yep. Hatchet job there.
If someone said Bettini v Remco, who is the better one day rider that would have been a fairer comparison

 

[CyclistAbi]

Let me get this straight: Ilmaestro started this Cunego vs Remco tirade, destroyed the thread and then disappeared.
P.S. My granny used to say "If you can't say anything good about someone, then don't say anything at all"

And lets not forget run the whole operation from the Brussels.

 

[Charlyghoul]

And lets not forget run the whole operation from the Brussels.

Laughing on the cobbles with a nice pint of Stella from source

 

[Extinction]

Let me get this straight: Ilmaestro started this Cunego vs Remco tirade, destroyed the thread and then disappeared.
P.S. My granny used to say "If you can't say anything good about someone, then don't say anything at all"

De mortuis nil nisi bonum

 

[Extinction]

That’s all true but the Giro is still bigger than the Vuelta as a win.
Look at the last ten years of the giro, 4 tdf winners, the last ten in the Vuelta, only one.

You don't have to convince me about the importance of the Giro, however, the Vuelta since the early 2000s obtained a higher status than before 95. If Remco was aiming (imprudently) for the Giro after the Lombardia crash, then it was because his team doubtless thought of the three GTs it was the least tough competition wise.

 

[Charlyghoul]

You don't have to convince me about the importance of the Giro, however, the Vuelta since the early 2000s obtained a higher status than before 95. If Remco was aiming (imprudently) for the Giro after the Lombardia crash, then it was because his team doubtless thought of the three GTs it was the least tough competition wise.

I was only saying the giro is still regarded as a better win than the Vuelta that’s all

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

When Simoni and Cunego won their Giros, the overall level was significantly lower than today and the difference with the Tour even more marked. Simoni took over from Pantani's demise and Armstrong cared only for the Tour. In fact, also with the shift of the Vuelta to late summer, which made it ideal for Worlds prep, the Giro got reduced pretty much to a provincial Italian affair at the time. In this context (weak field) and a bizzarre team dynamic, Cunego got his Giro. He got 11th in the 2006 Tour (Landis year) and 6th in 2011 (won by Evans), so both not stellar editions.

That Remco couldn't beat Simoni in a gt is frankly laughable. Simoni never did anything at the Tour gc wise, whereas Remco got third in his first attempt behind the two best in the world (don't let this year cloud your judgment, as he clearly had problems, both physically and with the team). His Vuelta win had Roglic, perhaps the best Vuelta rider ever, until he crashed out. He'd give Simoni 3 minutes in a 30 km tt, 5+ in a 50 km one like those of the Tour during the Armstrong era. Climbing wise, Simoni on Saunier-Duval it's true was formidable, but that was the time of Riccò and Piepoli (with incidentally Gianetti as ds) and so stuff reserved for the Clinic discussions. With a year of the chips all falling in the right place, or at least one without major incident, Remco leaves Simoni behind in the mountains too, at least at the Tour.

I’m not really here to discredit his Vuelta win because he looked very good and crashed during it, which explains his moments of weakness, but Roglic can in pretty hobbled.

I literally wrote that Rogla had to abandon, what’s your problem?

I think he just wanted to make the pun.

And was dropped multiple times by Evenepoel before Remco crashed.

And by Vine, Mas, etc, because he came in hobbled.

Simoni hated the Tour, saying in 2004 he never hoped to return, that nobody dared attack Armstrong and that US Postal set the agenda. Not exactly someone who had the legs for the race. There is a reason he never based a season on the Grand Bouclé.

I mostly hear what you’re saying, but I do think he had a point…

Vuelta is bigger now but I don’t think it’s overtaken the Giro yet. You could only really say that it’s been bigger because of Roglic winning it a lot.

Giro had one or two poor winners lately but there’s a reason Kelly, Kuss, Horner, Valverde and perhaps yes even Remco have only won the Vuelta…

I’d attribute that to Contador first, Froome second, and Roglic third.

I was only saying the giro is still regarded as a better win than the Vuelta that’s all

Probably when looking back at palmares, but I think year to year the riders themselves probably view it in terms of strength or competition. Like if someone beats Jonas this year that’s better than Simon Yates’s Giro.

 

[Charlyghoul]

I’m not really here to discredit his Vuelta win because he looked very good and crashed during it, which explains his moments of weakness, but Roglic can in pretty hobbled.

I think he just wanted to make the pun.

And by Vine, Mas, etc, because he came in hobbled.

I mostly hear what you’re saying, but I do think he had a point…

I’d attribute that to Contador first, Froome second, and Roglic third.

Probably when looking back at palmares, but I think year to year the riders themselves probably view it in terms of strength or competition. Like if someone beats Jonas this year that’s better than Simon Yates’s Giro.

Yeah maybe on yatesy but overall giro still has the higher prestige, the changing of the date of Vuelta hasn’t changed that.
Also unless Vingo crashes no one’s beating him

 

[CyclistAbi]

Note that if you attack Remco with Cunego you attack Rogla too, together they can obviously beat him fair and square.

 

[Extinction]

I was only saying the giro is still regarded as a better win than the Vuelta that’s all

I would love to agree with this, as the Giro is a special race, but honestly since they moved the Vuelta to late summer the dynamic changed based on who is racing Giro vs Vuelta. In the past the Giro was often a stepping stone to the Tour, when not a prize to go for the coveted double (Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, Pantani), with a history only second to the Grand Bouclé. Yet since performance science took over it became a risk for the Tour, that is until Pogacar came along. The Vuelta, by contrast can now be the second GT for someone either trying to make up for not winning the Tour or seeking a GT double after winning the Tour, or going in not tired from the Tour, perhaps as a second option after the Giro, or again preparing for Worlds.

 

[Charlyghoul]

I would love to agree with this, as the Giro is a special race, but honestly since they moved the Vuelta to late summer the dynamic changed based on who is racing Giro vs Vuelta. In the past the Giro was often a stepping stone to the Tour, when not a prize to go for the coveted double (Coppi, Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, Pantani), with a history only second to the Grand Bouclé. Yet since performance science took over it became a risk for the Tour, that is until Pogacar came along. The Vuelta, by contrast can now be the second GT for someone either trying to make up for winning the Tour or seeking a GT double after winning the Tour, or going in not tired from the Tour, perhaps as a second option after the Giro, or again preparing for Worlds.

Performance science ?
The giro is the second best win on the calendar, that might change one day but it hasn’t changed yet.
The last ten years winners show that pretty clearly imo.