Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[AmRacer]

I would love to agree with this, as the Giro is a special race, but honestly since they moved the Vuelta to late summer the dynamic changed based on who is racing Giro vs Vuelta. In the past the Giro was often a stepping stone to the Tour, when not a prize to go for the coveted double (Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, Pantani), with a history only second to the Grand Bouclé. Yet since performance science took over it became a risk for the Tour, that is until Pogacar came along. The Vuelta, by contrast can now be the second GT for someone either trying to make up for not winning the Tour or seeking a GT double after winning the Tour, or going in not tired from the Tour, perhaps as a second option after the Giro, or again preparing for Worlds.

If you are not targeting the Tour, you are preparing for the Giro. The Vuelta is a last chance saloon race.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Vuelta is a race for those who pretend they can win the tour, giro is a race for those who want to do the double, or are just a little bit off tour pace, or a little bit too old to throw everything in the tour basket.
Of course Vingegaard is an outlier, he might as well go for an easy Vuelta since he can’t win the tour.
Tour > Giro > Vuelta it has always been, and so it still is.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Let Evenepoel do 2 consecutive GTs before we flame Simoni for his Tours that always came off the back of a Giro GC bid.

I find it very intersting that Simoni only rode 2 Tours before the 2003 season when he was 32. DNF in stage 13 1995 when he was sitting like 120 and then he finished 116th in 1997.

After he became a real GC guy with 3rd in the 1999 Giro he doubled from 2000 to 2006 with 4 Vueltas and 3 Tours after his Giro bid. These resulted in 29th, 36th, 10th and 51st as results in the Vueltas and 84th, 17th and 59th in the Tours. That's very weak from a rider of Simonis calibre.

However, I think in this context the "critic" about Simoni isnt really about him being very bad at the Tour, because as you say his three Tours in 03, 04 and 2006 came after a Giro GC bid. The "critic" about Simoni is that he never even gave the Tour a shot, which only really makes sense if assuming that he knew he wouldnt be competitive because his very bad TT level.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Vuelta was IMHO rather elevated in the past couple of years in terms of prestige and it doesn't seem the trend is changing. In modern cycling winning the Tour is still the ultimate goal, winning Vuelta or Giro will do just fine too. All are approached rather seriously, usually by at least one top tier contender. GT racing is IMHO more competitive in this day and age as a whole.

 

[Charlyghoul]

I find it very intersting that Simoni only rode 2 Tours before the 2003 season when he was 32. DNF in stage 13 1995 when he was sitting like 120 and then he finished 116th in 1997.

After he became a real GC guy with 3rd in the 1999 Giro he doubled from 2000 to 2006 with 4 Vueltas and 3 Tours after his Giro bid. These resulted in 29th, 36th, 10th and 51st as results in the Vueltas and 84th, 17th and 59th in the Tours. That's very weak from a rider of Simonis calibre.

However, I think in this context the "critic" about Simoni isnt really about him being very bad at the Tour, because as you say his three Tours in 03, 04 and 2006 came after a Giro GC bid. The "critic" about Simoni is that he never even gave the Tour a shot, which only really makes sense if assuming that he knew he wouldnt be competitive because his very bad TT level.

Probably you hit the nail on simonis head, he knew he couldn’t compete with Lance and Ullrich.
Remco could maybe benefit from such level of self awareness.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

As Moderator:
Several posts deleted: this is not the clinic.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I find it very intersting that Simoni only rode 2 Tours before the 2003 season when he was 32. DNF in stage 13 1995 when he was sitting like 120 and then he finished 116th in 1997.

His teams didn't participate in the Tour in 1994, 96, 98-00 and 02 (Saeco were invited in 02, but lost their wild card due to Simoni's provisional suspension) making it difficult for him to ride it in those years even if he wanted to. He could have raced it in both 2001 and 05, but he went stage hunting in the Vuelta instead (in 05 he said he was too tired after the Giro). Of course with his other results in mind, he probably wouldn't have played a major role in those Tours anyway.

 

[Charlyghoul]

His teams didn't participate in the Tour in 1994, 96, 98-00 and 02 (Saeco were invited in 02, but lost their wild card due to Simoni's provisional suspension) making it difficult for him to ride it in those years even if he wanted to. He could have raced it in both 2001 and 05, but he went stage hunting in the Vuelta instead. Of course with his other results in mind, he probably wouldn't have played a major role in those Tours anyway.

A dedicated ‘tour Simoni’ would be in with a shout of a podium or top five if he was so inclined, I reckon. He didn’t like time trials but I don’t think he could be bothered basically with the tour, he knew he couldn’t win with saeco against usps so why bother ?

 

[Brullnux]

I would love to agree with this, as the Giro is a special race, but honestly since they moved the Vuelta to late summer the dynamic changed based on who is racing Giro vs Vuelta. In the past the Giro was often a stepping stone to the Tour, when not a prize to go for the coveted double (Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, Pantani), with a history only second to the Grand Bouclé. Yet since performance science took over it became a risk for the Tour, that is until Pogacar came along. The Vuelta, by contrast can now be the second GT for someone either trying to make up for not winning the Tour or seeking a GT double after winning the Tour, or going in not tired from the Tour, perhaps as a second option after the Giro, or again preparing for Worlds.

You've sort of explained within this post why the Giro is still a better win than tbe Vuelta. The Vuelta is now filled with Tour stragglers + Mas, and very few prepare for it outright; the Giro is still the GT that if you aren't targeting the Tour, you will focus on. The Vuelta has better fields, but people don't focus on it; the Giro has weaker fields, but the riders who go target it from January.

 

[Extinction]

You've sort of explained within this post why the Giro is still a better win than tbe Vuelta. The Vuelta is now filled with Tour stragglers + Mas, and very few prepare for it outright; the Giro is still the GT that if you aren't targeting the Tour, you will focus on. The Vuelta has better fields, but people don't focus on it; the Giro has weaker fields, but the riders who go target it from January.

Alright, but it's only because I have noticed the evolution since the early 80s and clearly the Vuelta gained at the expense of the Giro when moved to late summer in 95. Now I have nothing against the Vuelta, but the Giro is the Giro.😉

 

[KoopaCycling]

When it comes to prestige it's clear. 1. Tour 2.Giro 3. Vuelta.
That said. Difference between Giro & Vuelta is only cause of historic reasons atm.
They are close.

I actually find it interesting how some things are set in stone. If not for lack of interest and money countries like China, USA, Germany have all that is required to make truly awesome stages, and racing. But they will probably not even ever have anything beyond a 10 day stage race. Look at recent Deutschland Tour. It's almost pathetic what the the stages looked like.

It's also interesting how history and difficulty can be on opposite ends. Like The Belgium Tour has history. But it's never been that difficult. Benelux Tour has not got much history. But it's definitely the harder and more prestigious of the 2.

 

[peterfin]

I am looking forward to see him race again. This may not be his best year due to his winter issues but at just 34 days of racing he must be relatively fresh compared to the peleton. With the transfer issue behind him, he can also mentally reset. I think he still has a month of great performances in him this year.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Probably you hit the nail on simonis head, he knew he couldn’t compete with Lance and Ullrich.
Remco could maybe benefit from such level of self awareness.

But if Remco starts riding Giro and Vuelta instead, then how on earth is your Tom Pidcock ever going to win a GT, like you predicted? Let's hope he shares some of that self awareness and goes for GC at the local pub races.

 

[Charlyghoul]

But if Remco starts riding Giro and Vuelta instead, then how on earth is your Tom Pidcock ever going to win a GT, like you predicted? Let's hope he shares some of that self awareness and goes for GC at the local pub races.

Jeremy clarkson once said ‘London is the capital furthest away from its image of all the capitals’
This statement can be applied to Remco.
He’s closer to Pidders than he is Merckx or Poggi.
Pidcock has the talent to win a grand tour, you can watch and enjoy it when it happens. War Pidcock

 

[Peyroteo94]

Jeremy clarkson once said ‘London is the capital furthest away from its image of all the capitals’
This statement can be applied to Remco.
He’s closer to Pidders than he is Merckx or Poggi.
Pidcock has the talent to win a grand tour, you can watch and enjoy it when it happens. War Pidcock

Jesus Christ...

 

[Charlyghoul]

Jesus Christ...

Why it’s so hard to conceive ?
Pidders has the engine, world cross, world mtb, Olympic mtb champ.
With the right team behind him it could happen that he can win a gt.
He hasn’t got the backing of sir Remco or top Pog.
He is more likely to win a grand tour than Pog is of eclipsing Merckx

 

[Charlyghoul]

More likely than Bradley Wiggins tbh but look what happened there.
Pidders doesn’t have these connections.

Edit
I messaged Pidcock on instagram some months back and told him there are fans who stand with him in his belief he can win a grand tour. He said he hasn’t dropped his conviction he can do so and expects it will happen with the right team and some adjustments before 2030.

 

[red_flanders]

I am looking forward to see him race again. This may not be his best year due to his winter issues but at just 34 days of racing he must be relatively fresh compared to the peleton. With the transfer issue behind him, he can also mentally reset. I think he still has a month of great performances in him this year.

Thank you for your attempt to move us back on topic.

I don't hold out a ton of hope for this year, but maybe I will be surprised. The good thing is the kid is 25, and now settled into a new situation, for better or worse. My greatest hope is that he can find the consistency which has eluded him for so long in his career. I think the bike handling issues are a huge part of his problems, I don't know how those might be addressed, but I hope he can find a couple of injury-free years, and add to his palmares. Considering the number of injuries and the COVID abandon, his palmares are incredible. The kid is already a legend.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Thank you for your attempt to move us back on topic.

I don't hold out a ton of hope for this year, but maybe I will be surprised. The good thing is the kid is 25, and now settled into a new situation, for better or worse. My greatest hope is that he can find the consistency which has eluded him for so long in his career. I think the bike handling issues are a huge part of his problems, I don't know how those might be addressed, but I hope he can find a couple of injury-free years, and add to his palmares. Considering the number of injuries and the COVID abandon, his palmares are incredible. The kid is already a legend.

Bike handling is a huge part of cycling, you can have the biggest engine but without the skill and nouse to stay upon your bike, it is for nothing.
What do you think Remco should target now he is on a nice new team? You think he will go to the giro next year ?

 

[red_flanders]

Bike handling is a huge part of cycling, you can have the biggest engine but without the skill and nouse to stay upon your bike, it is for nothing.
What do you think Remco should target now he is on a nice new team? You think he will go to the giro next year ?

Fair questions – I'm not sure it matters what I think he should do – he has time to get to all the things. His stated goal is the Tour. Would like to see him podium again, and maybe chance allows him to compete for a win in the coming years.

I'd like to see him target the Giro in the future for sure.

I think with a couple injury-free years, the kid can win almost anything. With that and some luck, maybe anything. He could also come up short. Dunno.

I tend to root for riders who ride to win and handle the bike really well. Probably my love of descending on a MTB plays into this prejudice. I love MvDP and Pogi for those traits. I don't know that I've ever seen a more impressive specimen than MvDP in terms of bike-handling. Nibali was really fun. Contador was really fun. Sean Kelly I really admired, and Lemond at times. Hinault for sure. Pidcock can be a blast to watch, but he seems like a head case and is wildly inconsistent to say the least. But he's given us unique moments. Fantastic. At least Remco rides to win, and rides with panache. I like the passion. But the crap bike-handling which hasn't improved enough...it bugs.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Fair questions – I'm not sure it matters what I think he should do – he has time to get to all the things. His stated goal is the Tour. Would like to see him podium again, and maybe chance allows him to compete for a win in the coming years.

I'd like to see him target the Giro in the future for sure.

I think with a couple injury-free years, the kid can win almost anything. With that and some luck, maybe anything. He could also come up short. Dunno.

I tend to root for riders who ride to win and handle the bike really well. Probably my love of descending on a MTB plays into this prejudice. I love MvDP and Pogi for those traits. I don't know that I've ever seen a more impressive specimen than MvDP in terms of bike-handling. Nibali was really fun. Contador was really fun. Sean Kelly I really admired, and Lemond at times. Hinault for sure. Pidcock can be a blast to watch, but he seems like a head case and is wildly inconsistent to say the least. But he's given us unique moments. Fantastic. At least Remco rides to win, and rides with panache. I like the passion. But the crap bike-handling which hasn't improved enough...it bugs.

That’s a nice balanced appraisal of Remco and the other riders.
As a newbie here I’d like to say that’s the sort of post we can all aspire to.
There are some posters that seem to enjoy bringing riders down, or other posters, but there’s none of that here. Thank you.

 

[red_flanders]

That’s a nice balanced appraisal of Remco and the other riders.
As a newbie here I’d like to say that’s the sort of post we can all aspire to.
There are some posters that seem to enjoy bringing riders down, or other posters, but there’s none of that here. Thank you.

Appreciate that! I'll keep it in mind as I can also make some fairly non-constructive posts...

And to be fair, you teed it up as questions rather than statements or proclamations, which makes it easy for another member to step in softly. So that's a really good practice which we could see more of here as well. Cheers.

 

[Ripper]

Fair questions – I'm not sure it matters what I think he should do – he has time to get to all the things. His stated goal is the Tour. Would like to see him podium again, and maybe chance allows him to compete for a win in the coming years.

I'd like to see him target the Giro in the future for sure.

I think with a couple injury-free years, the kid can win almost anything. With that and some luck, maybe anything. He could also come up short. Dunno.

I tend to root for riders who ride to win and handle the bike really well. Probably my love of descending on a MTB plays into this prejudice. I love MvDP and Pogi for those traits. I don't know that I've ever seen a more impressive specimen than MvDP in terms of bike-handling. Nibali was really fun. Contador was really fun. Sean Kelly I really admired, and Lemond at times. Hinault for sure. Pidcock can be a blast to watch, but he seems like a head case and is wildly inconsistent to say the least. But he's given us unique moments. Fantastic. At least Remco rides to win, and rides with panache. I like the passion. But the crap bike-handling which hasn't improved enough...it bugs.

Indeed!

Some people are able to pick up riding/racing relatively late and develop good technique almost instantly, others take a lot longer, and some never pick it up ... Alex Zulle, I am looking at you!

It would be really nice to see him pick it up a few notches and get at least reasonably strong in the handling/road sense/awareness piece. It would save him a ton of energy in the longer races and GTs, and likely allow him to not only do better, but avoid nasty crashes as well.

New teams, especially new and well run teams, bring new opportunities and a chance to level up. Let's hope he does that. It would be nice to see his actual potential come to life.

Really hoping for less/no drama

 

[KoopaCycling]

So should we start telling Ayuso to stop being a GC guy.. only he's no good in 1 day races...
Obviously he had rushed prep, cause he was prepping for WC not Vuelta. But if this was remco it would be considered just another excuse.

 

[AmRacer]

So should we start telling Ayuso to stop being a GC guy.. only he's no good in 1 day races...
Obviously he had rushed prep, cause he was prepping for WC not Vuelta. But if this was remco it would be considered just another excuse.

Are you saying Ayuso got same palmares as Remco?