Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Netserk]

What do you guys think about the fact that he shattered those KOM's at Tenerife?

Contador did 7.44 W/kg for 20 minutes before the 2014 Tour in training. Of course, translating that to race relevant numbers is not straightforward.

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[Netserk]

where do you get that sentiment. I explicitly stated Remco and Pog are the two alpha males

Did you even read what you responded to?

Scenario 1:

Remco and Rog are attacking each other constantly during last years Vuelta on some fictional mountain stage. Just before the final MTF Remco looks at the camera, smiles and pretends to rev an engine.

He then gets dropped thoroughly by Rog on the climb and loses the Vuelta.

Scenario 2:

On a climb in Catalunya, Rog attacks. Remco follows and while sitting on Rog’s wheel, turns to the camera and smiles to show how easy he is following Rog. He then drops Rog.

What would be the reaction?

I criticized Remco’s shoulder brush off when he was only barely out of his teens. But even that arrogant (though misinterpreted) gesture pales in comparison to some of the things Pog has done. And yet the reaction it diametrically opposite.

 

[Red Rick]

Contador did 7.44 W/kg for 20 minutes before the 2014 Tour in training. Of course, translating that to race relevant numbers is not straightforward.

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Pogacar broke Stelvia and Gavia records before the last Tour de France according to his trainer.

 

[houtdffan]

Did you even read what you responded to?

Not this?

They are basically the same age and Pogačar is the most complete Racer on the planet. He's the big thing now and can be the next big thing for years. Winning 2 TdF, podium Vuelta, winning 1 week long Races and monuments. Missing world title yet. Remco is not on his level. He barely won Vuelta against an injured guy that crashes a lot.

I'll quote James Hunt, as his quote is appropriate to your post

"All I'll say to that is bull sh*t"

I take it you missed Remco schooling Pog at the worlds.

Those like you are those who I was mentioning, looking for anyone to overshadow an obviously superior athlete

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Contador did 7.44 W/kg for 20 minutes before the 2014 Tour in training. Of course, translating that to race relevant numbers is not straightforward.

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Unbelievable number! I'm curious what was his vertical speed, then we would know how reliable the data was (24+ kph combined with the power suggests a climb of about 8% and a ridiculous VAM of about 2000 m/h).

 

[Sciatic]

I don't know where you are from, Australia? The US? Somewhere else detached from the rest of cycling civilization? It's like World Series baseball (even though it's only played out in the US), or NFL football, or NBA basketball, in which urban teams - Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, LA, etc - are given huge press by local media outlets and mounting pressure is thrust upon star players to meet performance expectations as the season progresses.

The difference, of course, in this analogy, is that in cycling we are dealing with nations, not cities, but the principle is the same: the home, in this case national, press provides enormous coverage and pressure to its stars. The only difference again is that at the level of cities it's less likely the team star/s actually hail from the city (like the now retired Francesco Totti from the Roma football/soccer team, who was a veritable god during his career amongst the local tifosi and press). By contrast, if the team is French or Italian or Belgian or Spanish or Dutch, etc you shall still have stars from the home nation on it for the entire cycling fanbase of those countries to rally around, with the intensified mass media scrutiny and pressure to perform over the national heroes it presupposes.

I was about to mention the same thing you point out in your first paragraph, with respect to New York in particular articulate but also those other hotbed sports cities. Of course, I can’t remember them offhand now, but I’ve read several times about players on the (New York) Yankees or Mets who never were able to perform to their abilities because of the intense m dis and fan pressure there.

 

[Sciatic]

If you are a football player in Argentina, you will also get more pressure than if you are a football player in Canada. But i'm sure if you practice curling or ice hockey, that there will be more pressure in Canada than in Argentina. Belgium, together with Italy and France are probably the three biggest cycling nations historically speaking, with Spain and the Netherlands following at a distance. But of those countries, it had been the longest for Belgium to have a GT winner. Yet generations still witnessed Merckx, De Vlaeminck, etc so the anticipation was immense.

Comes along a kid who rides the entire peloton into dust, wins by doing 100k solo rides, by up to 11 minutes, by having the peloton taken out of the race because he lapped them, repeatedly. Some bloke on an internet forum drops the name Merckx and the average Belgian cycling fan gets ecstatic and starts frantically hoping for it to be true. However, many non-Belgians don't exactly like the prospect of a new Merckx-like racer, so lots of people rather ridicule the idea (so many others were heralded as 2nd coming of Merckx and all failed miserably, so why would this one be any different). So the Evenepoel Trials were called into life. A series of neverending trials where the kid has to prove he is the 2nd coming. With every trial he successfully completes, hope warms the hearts of some, fear chills the hearts of others. But either way, tension rises. Add to that, that the kid is outspoken, so plenty to opportunities to berate him and his character.

Unlike Evenepoel, Pogacar was never heralded as an upcoming worldbeater until he actually was a worldbeater. Pog also comes from a cycling nation where there is 0 pressure. To Slovenians, i imagine Pog and Rog are a bit like Clijsters and Henin were in Belgium. In a country with little history in a certain sport, nobody expected anything to happen, so when it did actually happen, it was all good and people were happy for whatever did happen.

Nicely written!

 

[Sciatic]

Gosh, Mas is getting destroyed for no reason when comparing the top 4

This discussion is like a black hole. Riders in distant orbits (I.e.,not even mentioned previously) start to get sucked in and swallowed up.

 

[Sciatic]

1. Pog, Remco
2. Vinnie
3. Mas
4. Roglic
5. Landa

See ya girls.

What, no Vino option?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Contador did 7.44 W/kg for 20 minutes before the 2014 Tour in training. Of course, translating that to race relevant numbers is not straightforward.

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Its especially not the straightforward when youre Alberto Contador.

Also those kinda efforts were by far his best, rested semi short, high intensity ones. Even when he wasnt on his peak, he was an absolute monster when it comes down to similar efforts.

 

[Red Rick]

Its especially not the straightforward when youre Alberto Contador.

Also those kinda efforts were by far his best, rested semi short, high intensity ones. Even when he wasnt on his peak, he was an absolute monster when it comes down to similar efforts.

Those are also Evenepoels best climbing efforts. And his best ITTs althought the long sample is small.

 

[Sciatic]

It’ll be interesting as we continue to have more and more data with things like Strava to see how top climbing times compare from max training efforts compared to race efforts. A max training effort on a big climb when potentially not as fatigued or the earlier part of the ride was quite easy compared to during a GT might give less reliable results. But in general yeah, if he’s crushing KOMs by minutes in a major pro training area that’s pretty impressive. Week 3 of Giro will be most telling though.

I still would question of the comparability of Strava training numbers at altitude to race capacity, though obviously there will be some correlation.

 

[Sciatic]

Well nothing is 100% accurate so I'm sure it won't be accurate up to 1 second but we're talking minutes here. Can't really think of "many other factors". But yeah, it's still just a strava segment. It does make me curious, we'll see next week I guess.

There can also be other “issues” with altitude-camp KOMs that can’t be mentioned here.

 

[CyclistAbi]

As of yet we didn't say much about Roglič vs Evenepoel rivalry.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

isn't that the same for Roglic?
Vuelta win:
2021 -> 2nd Mas
2020 -> 2nd Carapaz (24s)
2019 ->2nd Valverde

Roglic didn't target the Vuelta any of those years. And yes he also has a problem staying on his bike. Hard to compare with Remco's prep and performance this year.

2019 -> 3rd in the Giro before winning the Vuelta, and we've seen how that has gone for recent Giro-Tour racers. He crashed in that Giro or he might have won.
2020 -> 2nd in the Tour before winning the Vuelta; he left it all on the table in July and still came through for the win
2021 -> Crashed out of the Tour before winning Olympic ITT gold and the Vuelta
2022 -> Crashed out of the Tour before crashing out of the Vuelta

1/2 is better than 3/11

This is like when people illogically praise Michael Jordan for being 6/6 in the NBA finals. The reality is that 6/12 is better than 6/6 for example; if you didn't make it to the dance, you performed worse than if you made it to the dance.

1/2 is therefore better than 3/11. However, if Remco keeps it up his whole career and finishes 8/16 for example, then, yes, 8/16 >>>> 3/11.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Isnt gps-based? You dont think it has changed in years ? The start and end-point. It is super-reliable?

This is already getting tedious.

Im not gonna read more into it, more than that it is a good omen and that he is working hard atm.

New thread title?

Contador did 7.44 W/kg for 20 minutes before the 2014 Tour in training. Of course, translating that to race relevant numbers is not straightforward.

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Contador was in insanely good shape that year, as well all know. The ultimate WCHB Tour. He still put out phenomenal numbers beating Froome in the Vuelta that year. So I would say that that performance certainly translated to what we saw on the road at least directionally.

 

[Netserk]

There can also be other “issues” with altitude-camp KOMs that can’t be mentioned here.

Staying out of the clinic, without video who knows if he is not drafting a moto the whole way?

It's not like we'll have to wait all that much before getting reliable information in Catalunya.

 

[Sciatic]

Staying out of the clinic, without video who knows if he is not drafting a moto the whole way?

It's not like we'll have to wait all that much before getting reliable information in Catalunya.

Good point!

 

[red_flanders]

where do you get that sentiment. I explicitly stated Remco and Pog are the two alpha males

I think that it came off that way because the convo was about Remco/Pogačar, and I don't think anyone considers Pog as having " the slightest chance of dethroning him". I don't think we can refer to Pogi as "dethroning" anyone. He's on the throne.

I certainly may have interpreted your meaning incorrectly, along with others.

 

[Venge 82]

After not following the forum for about 2 days, just catching up on about 6 pages.

A few observations:
- As a Remco fan, I can admit that Remco committed some juvenile sins in his early days. That these could be seen as arrogant I can understand. I myself also found it unfortunate and for me it was not necessary. BUT, he was just a child and was already being watched with a magnifying glass. Remco received better guidance in this in recent years and has also read books on how to handle certain situations better. That shows insight and you can only admire people who want to work on themselves. I thought last season was a great example of this. I am curious to see how Remco will react in case of loss or disappointment, because last season was 1 big success (with the exception of the Tour of Switzerland).

- I don't like comparisons between riders. Remco does not get better by talking/writing down Pogacar's performance and vice versa. They just get better because they are driven by the other. I hope we are going to enjoy them and other talented and inspiring riders for years to come.
The big duels between Remco and Pogacar are yet to come (ok, not counting the World Championships, as I don't consider this a duel) and there Remco still has a way to go. Partly due to age difference, bad luck (altogether 2.5 years behind) and a team with limited experience (and €€€) in grand tours.

- KOMs are interesting to follow and I myself get excited to see that Remco's fitness is evidently not evolving badly. Indeed, these are not race conditions, we don't know the weather conditions, we don't know the training that precedes them, we don't know how riders are paced,... Only, this is not about small improvements in times, it is not about "Janneke Mieke" training. So, Remco is good. The question is: how good?

A forum lives by conflicting opinions. This thread is living proof of this. Sometimes disturbing, sometimes fascinating ;-)

 

[Riek s]

Roglic didn't target the Vuelta any of those years. And yes he also has a problem staying on his bike. Hard to compare with Remco's prep and performance this year.

But that wasn't the point. If people dismiss GT wins because 'he just beat Mas' than the same can be said about Roglic, who just beat Mas and dinosaur Valv Pitti.
You bring up he wasn't prepared well in those years, but that is speculation. Just because he crashed out in the tour doesn't mean his vuelta level was a lot lower. And just because his so called preparation was lower that those wins against the same people are 'bigger' or worth more.

 

[BR2]

At this point there are some delusional Remco fanatics.
On the same level as Pogacar, if not better?
Seriously?
Maybe he can get there, it is possible, maybe soon already, who knows. Right now? No way.

 

[Extinction]

At this point there are some delusional Remco fanatics.
On the same level as Pogacar, if not better?
Seriously?
Maybe he can get there, it is possible, maybe soon already, who knows. Right now? No way.

If we must bring this into the discussion, then let's hold off any bold statements, either way, until Liege-Giro-Tour, when the real goals come into the picture for both.

 

[houtdffan]

At this point there are some delusional Remco fanatics.
On the same level as Pogacar, if not better?
Seriously?
Maybe he can get there, it is possible, maybe soon already, who knows. Right now? No way.

Except he was on that level last year from April through the end of the season

 

[Red Rick]

Except he was on that level last year from April through the end of the season

I'll give it to him in classics.

But the Tour vs Vuelta level? That's just lol