• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

Page 855 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

Should we change the thread title?


  • Total voters
    112
How about to prove to himself that he can climb big mountains with the guys he has to beat to win a GT?
Like I said. He tried and failed. He‘ll try again in July and the warm up races. What y’all seem to want is him to prove something to…you. There were much more interesting objectives after the Aubisque. Not sure why this is hard for some folks to grasp.
 
  • 2023 Giro: Hyper competitive until stage 9, when he underperformed on the ITT (though still won); arguably underperformed on both ITTs
    • Reason: Covid
Great write up and I agree with everything you said, except that he underperformed in both ITT’s. His first ITT in the Giro of 2023 is in my opinion his best TT ever. The second one not so much, clearly that COVID was in his body by then.
 
  • 2022 Vuelta: Hyper competitive until stage 14, when he dropped :50 to Roglic and :39 to Mas the next day (note: still won the overall after Roglic dropped out)
    • Reason: Crash
Here you kind of make it sound like he was gassed in the last week and got the victory because Roglic crashed out.

When Roglic crashed out the lead was still around 1 1/2 minute and in there three last mountain/hilly stages Remco had no problem, First being second of the GC guys on stage 17, then he won the MTF on stage 18 dropping everyone bar Mas (dropped him in the sprint) and on stage 20 he was never in danger. With the parcour of that last week and what Remco showed compared to Mas, Ayoso, Almeida it seems extremely unlikely that Roglic would’ve been near catching up 1 1/2 minute in that last week if he hadn’t crashed.
 
First of all, you know damn well that Roglic could've won this Vuelta had the circiumstances being different. You won't admit it though...
I don't think so. I feel Vingegaard would have won, and so does the majority of cycling fans / followers / journalists and riders.
If you want my take on the race, I think a Remco that didn't fall off the Tourmalet would have been 3rd or 4th, with Vingegaard a firm first, Roglic second.
Second, I will answer to your question: 2023 Remco wouldn't done much different in 2021 either. The boy is just not a natural climber, he needs ideal prep, ideal route, ideal opponents, etc, and when he faces hard mountains and hard competition he usually cracks. We'll see at the Tour next year anyway, but I'm sure that the crew around here will find some excuse.
The Vuelta 2021 was raced in a totally different way than the one in 2023. 2023 was characterised by a very strong team (JV) that took things up in almost every single stage that mattered. They set the pace and forced the attacks to not only make other teams work, but also to squeeze / force other GC riders into their pace. 2021 was totally different (as were most Vueltas): a not-so-stacked field, and specifically in 2021, a much easier first and second week.
And third, do you actually believe in all this *** you write here, in this thread, cause outside of this thread I know you as a pretty objective poster. Or your love for Remco is such, that you just need to explain and justify every failure he has?
Maybe you should re-read my posts in this topic: all of those in very strong support of Remco are tongue-in-cheek, and a lot of posts critisize Remco (just check my last 3-5 posts and you will see). I admit / confess I like Remco for what the way he races and I secretly wish he would be able / strong enough to win the Tour, but I'm also realistic enough to see what's his place and worth in the current peloton, and while I will be pleasantly surprised if he e.g. drops either Vingegaard / Pogacar / Roglic /... uphill (in a GC mountainous stage or a one-day classic), I won't ever predict he will smash this kind of competition.
 
I agree it was good prep, but the Giro-Vuelta has been much, much harder for riders to nail than it should be on paper. So given he raced and won the Giro, I'm not sure you can call it "ideal" prep. He and Kuss did extremely well in both, but that is the exception, not the norm.

I think it's possible both to think he is exciting and enhanced the Vuelta tremendously and to acknowledge that he avoided direct, competition, with GC competitors post collapse. I think he is exciting and extremely talented, but I'm also disappointed that he took the easy path of stage hunting rather than testing himself. Wasn't this supposed to be a progression toward Tour success? Based on the Vuelta and previous comments about step-stoning him to the Tour, I'd send him back to the Giro in 2024 if I were Lefevre.

(1) This is hypothetical and subjective rather than a comparison of actual situations and results. Both end in speculation, but you're moving the conversation a step further into the theoretical, not into the actual.
(2) This is unbelievably disingenuous. You grant Remco a spot on the podium if his prep was better, which, ok, hard to see based on what I saw, but OK based on his win in last year's Vuelta. But then you deny that Roglic would likely have finished first or second - and no worse than second - if not for the strange team tactics situation. Remco dropping actually hurt Roglic quite a bit.
(1) I would rather compare 2 riders with non-ideal preparation in a similar situation, than saying Roglic won underprepped in a non-stacked Vuelta while Remco lost underprepped in the best Vuelta field of the last 10 years.
(2) I only said a (lowest) podium spot would have been the highest possible for Remco if well-prepared. That's pretty realistic imho. And I also said Roglic wouldn't have gotten the top spot (rather second or 3rd) if Vingegaard raced full-on. That also seems pretty realistic imho. You can discuss about both but to say that's disingenuous...?
 
(1) I would rather compare 2 riders with non-ideal preparation in a similar situation, than saying Roglic won underprepped in a non-stacked Vuelta while Remco lost underprepped in the best Vuelta field of the last 10 years.
(2) I only said a (lowest) podium spot would have been the highest possible for Remco if well-prepared. That's pretty realistic imho. And I also said Roglic wouldn't have gotten the top spot (rather second or 3rd) if Vingegaard raced full-on. That also seems pretty realistic imho. You can discuss about both but to say that's disingenuous...?
1. Since Rog is one of top three, and the other 2 wasn't there, of course any field would be non-stacked.
2. A well prepared, ideal build up, 100 % everything Remco is better than a 3 GT Monster Kuss. But it has to be a perfect preparation of course. 95 % isn't good enough.
 
1. Since Rog is one of top three, and the other 2 wasn't there, of course any field would be non-stacked.
2. A well prepared, ideal build up, 100 % everything Remco is better than a 3 GT Monster Kuss. But it has to be a perfect preparation of course. 95 % isn't good enough.
if Remco was only racing Kuss (and not a tridente), and if Kuss had the same team strength as Remco, I would like to see...
A good Remco can't be controlled by a weak team, in almost any stage. Put Kuss in any other team and he wouldn't have gotten 2-3 helpers pulling him 4 minutes away from a weak SQS team. And if you have Kuss without Vingegaard and Roglic, he would face attacks left and right.
A good Remco vs. a very strong team who can keep him on a leash, is as good as his best climbing (which is anything between 1st and 5th, depending on the competition, thus in this Vuelta somewhere 3th-5th).
 
if Remco was only racing Kuss (and not a tridente), and if Kuss had the same team strength as Remco, I would like to see...
A good Remco can't be controlled by a weak team, in almost any stage. Put Kuss in any other team and he wouldn't have gotten 2-3 helpers pulling him 4 minutes away from a weak SQS team. And if you have Kuss without Vingegaard and Roglic, he would face attacks left and right.
A good Remco vs. a very strong team who can keep him on a leash, is as good as his best climbing (which is anything between 1st and 5th, depending on the competition, thus in this Vuelta somewhere 3th-5th).
So Remco with ideal preparation and a better team can take on Kuss, the 3 GT Monster.
 
The thread is too funny with the depth of analysis people will make relating to minor points about remco. Soon I expect universities to offer courses in remco theory, some forum members could write excellent thesis on how you could maximise the chances of remco winning a grand tour.
It's the same with Pogacar. People want to believe in superhumans so if these riders turn out to be quite human they just can't believe it and start overtheorizing about why they "failed".
 
I don't think so. I feel Vingegaard would have won, and so does the majority of cycling fans / followers / journalists and riders.
Who? Where? Which ones?

Oh an by the way 2021 Vuelta field was not week at all. You had Roglic, Bernal - current Giro champ, Carapaz - 3rd from the Tour, Adam Yates, Enric Mas, Miguel Angel Lopez, Landa, Jack Haig, Hugh Carthy, Vlasov, Bardet, Ciccone.
Jumbo team was very strong - Kuss, Kruijswijk, Gesink, Bouwman, Oomen, Van Hooydonck, Hofstede. Ineos was even stronger, Movistar also very strong, Bahrain too.
So I don't agree that was a week edition.
 
The framing “avoided all confrontations” is either trolling or wildly obtuse with regard to the goals left to him at that point. He could win stages and the polka dot, or climb with the GC group for no reason. Not exactly difficult choices for him or hard to parse as a viewer.

Unless one is just trying for whatever reason to paint some of the most exciting and entertaining efforts of the race in as poor a light as possible.
I've written this before: it wasn't an exclusive choice of one or the other. Yes, he should aim for stage wins. Yes, he should aim for KOM. That still doesn't contradict that he should go against the best on either Bejes or Angliru.
 
Who? Where? Which ones?

Oh an by the way 2021 Vuelta field was not week at all. You had Roglic, Bernal - current Giro champ, Carapaz - 3rd from the Tour, Adam Yates, Enric Mas, Miguel Angel Lopez, Landa, Jack Haig, Hugh Carthy, Vlasov, Bardet, Ciccone.
Jumbo team was very strong - Kuss, Kruijswijk, Gesink, Bouwman, Oomen, Van Hooydonck, Hofstede. Ineos was even stronger, Movistar also very strong, Bahrain too.
So I don't agree that was a week edition.
we agree to disagree I would say...
 
And what makes this the strongest Vuelta field of the last 10 years? Who did Remco face?
Roglic-Vingegaard-Kuss, ok, yes, those 2 plus due to the team the third

Landa? After the season he had? And while he finally was decent again here, it was not all that impressive either. Still not the old Landa.
Ayuso? He didn't seem to have progressed much compared to 22
Almeida? Got sick, lost time, then his usual drop+chase self.
Mas? Coming from a Tour crash, clearly weaker than 21
Thomas: An announced failure here almost. The chances that he wouldn't manage to get a second peak, in his first try, at an estimated age of 59 were quite big.
Arensman, crashed out.
Vlasov underperformed too. Cian did very well.

Roglic-Vingegaard, that's it. Don't think anybody predicted anybody other than Roglic-Vingegaard-Remco.
 
Why not change it then?
Like I said, it's fun because it's tongue in cheek. We could have a boring thread title like "Jonas Vingegaard", which is so boring compared to "The chicken who eats Riis for breakfast". When he was a junior he was compared to Merckx, because he won in crazy ways. It dates back from back then, so why would we change it? Why do people have so much issue with this comparison that doesn't mean anything?
 
  • Like
Reactions: F e r o x