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Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

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I think Remco evenepoel just had a bad day in the Vuelta 2023, just like Pogacar just had a bad day in the Tour 2023.

Remco showed good shape in the climbs, when was in the breakaways and in the first mountain stages of the race. Certainly he would be climbing with the top 10 GC guys in all the mountain stages of the Vuelta, except for the fateful day in the Tourmalet.
 
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Of course.

But when you have an opinion, you must also be able to document it. That is what is often missing in discussions here
I think i documented and argued my point quite clearly, but maybe you missed some of it. First of all, i said it was NOT a hunger knock, but the symptoms were the same and everything adds up. You keep harking back on this 1kg, compare pictures with the pictures of '22, that's not 1kg. Also i have no idea why you keep bringing that up or where you get that from, especially considering it makes no sense. If it was a statement by Evenepoel that you are going by, then you should not. They have never been honest about his weight, and only after the facts do they sometimes spill the beans and throughout the past seasons it has been a puzzle to get an idea of his actual weight. He was definitely not going to state in an interview before the Vuelta that he was too fat and give his rivals some more ammo.
 
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Sure, but Dumoulin was one of the smarter professional cyclists, who knows what he's talking about. You say:

"The problem remains of the smaller difficult moments that we regularly saw in the past"

But this doesn't "just" happen. There must be a reason for it. You don't "just" get a bad day, sometimes. There are explanations for these things. Not being a natural climber doesn't make sense to me, because what does that even mean, and why wouldn't that affect him sometimes, instead of just sometimes? Also why didn't we see this during the Vuelta of 2022?

Therefor the explanation of Dumoulin makes more sense to me, that they were trying too hard to compensate the weight gain for the WC ITT, and they made some mistakes when it comes to nutrition.
Oh, but we also have seen that problem during the Vuelta 22. Partly as a result of the two Evenepoelcrashes in one stage. But that was not the only reason. there is a structural problem. Climbing based on pace and power. As a result, the body sometimes reacts and becomes a bit overloaded. But not every day. He has also proven many times that he can recover after a slightly inferior performance, which is not bad either.

But I don't mind that in itself. It's a natural thing. Also more beautiful and believable than the robot climbing and performance of some riders. Although I am convinced that fewer and fewer minor setbacks due to aging and targeted training will ultimately ensure that Evenepoel can sail smoothly through a GT. Whether that will be enough to ever win the Tour against riders like Vingegaard, Pogacar or Bernal (if ever in top form again) I really don't know. If it happens, it will be once or twice at most. While Vingegaard and Pogacar will probably each win the Tour three or four times.
 
Oh, but we also have seen that problem during the Vuelta 22. Partly as a result of the two Evenepoelcrashes in one stage. But that was not the only reason. there is a structural problem. Climbing based on pace and power. As a result, the body sometimes reacts and becomes a bit overloaded. But not every day. He has also proven many times that he can recover after a slightly inferior performance, which is not bad either.

But I don't mind that in itself. It's a natural thing. Also more beautiful and believable than the robot climbing and performance of some riders. Although I am convinced that fewer and fewer minor setbacks due to aging and targeted training will ultimately ensure that Evenepoel can sail smoothly through a GT. Whether that will be enough to ever win the Tour against riders like Vingegaard, Pogacar or Bernal (if ever in top form again) I really don't know. If it happens, it will be once or twice at most. While Vingegaard and Pogacar will probably each win the Tour three or four times.
I completely disagree with you view of the Vuelta 2022. For me it was very clear that this was due to his crash. The biggest impact of your crash is mostly on the 2nd day, which was when they gained the most time on him (I think).

I also don't understand the body being overloaded, but then after 1 day it's resolved and everything goes back to normal? That's not how a body works on heavy loads, and this also doesn't make sense when you go extremely hard in the days after again.
 
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I think i documented and argued my point quite clearly, but maybe you missed some of it. First of all, i said it was NOT a hunger knock, but the symptoms were the same and everything adds up. You keep harking back on this 1kg, compare pictures with the pictures of '22, that's not 1kg. Also i have no idea why you keep bringing that up or where you get that from, especially considering it makes no sense. If it was a statement by Evenepoel that you are going by, then you should not. They have never been honest about his weight, and only after the facts do they sometimes spill the beans and throughout the past seasons it has been a puzzle to get an idea of his actual weight. He was definitely not going to state in an interview before the Vuelta that he was too fat and give his rivals some more ammo.
My eyes are fine, thank you. The Evenepoel weightdifference between the Vuelta 22 and 23 was not more than 1 kg.

If so, Evenepoel could only have scored on punch finishes. Which was certainly not the case after the Tourmalet. With his overweight.... So, which overweight ? Not your "joke" 6 kg overweight. So, let's say between your joke 6 kg and my credible 1 kg. The difference is 5 kg. Divided in half that is 2.5 kg. To add to my one kg and subtract from your 6 kg. So, 3,5 kg overweight. Really ? And winning 3 mountainstages and the mountainsclassificiation.
 
I completely disagree with you view of the Vuelta 2022. For me it was very clear that this was due to his crash. The biggest impact of your crash is mostly on the 2nd day, which was when they gained the most time on him (I think).

I also don't understand the body being overloaded, but then after 1 day it's resolved and everything goes back to normal? That's not how a body works on heavy loads, and this also doesn't make sense when you go extremely hard in the days after again.
It was in no shape or form comparable to his offdays in '22. Not only was it after a crash, but also the bad moments in that Vuelta were at the end of the stage, when attacks came. He couldn't respond, needed a minute to get his pace back, and lost minimal time in the end. In the '23 Vuelta, he completely bonked when the stage had only just begon, and even after half an hour, there was no recovering. Anybody thinking both cases are related is completely bonkers.

My eyes are fine, thank you. The Evenepoel weightdifference between the Vuelta 22 and 23 was not more than 1 kg.

If so, Evenepoel could only have scored on punch finishes. Which was certainly not the case after the Tourmalet. With his overweight.... So, which overweight ? Not your "joke" 6 kg overweight. So, let's say between your joke 6 kg and my credible 1 kg. The difference is 5 kg. Divided in half that is 2.5 kg. To add to my one kg and subtract from your 6 kg. So, 3,5 kg overweight. Really ? And winning 3 mountainstages and the mountainsclassificiation.
Believe what you want.
 
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I completely disagree with you view of the Vuelta 2022. For me it was very clear that this was due to his crash. The biggest impact of your crash is mostly on the 2nd day, which was when they gained the most time on him (I think).

I also don't understand the body being overloaded, but then after 1 day it's resolved and everything goes back to normal? That's not how a body works on heavy loads, and this also doesn't make sense when you go extremely hard in the days after again.
That's exactly how it's works. After a small overload and no major breakdown. You never recover from a serious breakdown in a grand tour. Unless it was a one-time hunger collapse.
If the rider recovers well afterwards and eats well and sensibly, he will be even stronger than normal the day after the hunger pang. Because his body has been able to absorb more glycogen than would normally be possible. I don't think that Evenepoel's limited moments of weakness are linked to a deficiency or incorrect nutrition. However, it depends on his physique and relationship with his weight. Also his way of racing. That can still be tinkered with a bit. But reducing his weight (too) much (59 or 60 kg) might result in a great performance during one or two mountain stages.... but also to a serious breakdown from which he will not recover during that GT.
 
He soft pedaled on the forelast climb and on the Tourmalet. Deliberately. To lose enough time to go for stages later in the Vuelta. But the fact that, in the first difficult climb, he had to leave the wheels, not only of his opponents, but also of non-climbers and even sprinters, and lost the first three minutes, was certainly not planned.
This - Almeida dropped similarly but battled on and limited his losses to the extent that he was able to finish top 10 overall which worked for him as a rider less suited to winning stages from breaks than Remco.

I don’t think he tanked the day but I do think there was a conscious decision once the gap got to a minute and a half to pull the pin entirely and reset the goals far enough down not be chased constantly by Jumbo Visma.
 
It was in no shape or form comparable to his offdays in '22. Not only was it after a crash, but also the bad moments in that Vuelta were at the end of the stage, when attacks came. He couldn't respond, needed a minute to get his pace back, and lost minimal time in the end. In the '23 Vuelta, he completely bonked when the stage had only just begon, and even after half an hour, there was no recovering. Anybody thinking both cases are related is completely bonkers.


Believe what you want.
No arguments left ?

During the many reactions, also with others, I just stated that that one slump (that there actually was none) has nothing to do with the small setbacks that we regularly see at Evenepoel. He, his trainer and doctors will probably already know what the right reason was. But the reason or reasons were certainly not the ones you and a few others put forward.
 
That's exactly how it's works. After a small overload and no major breakdown. You never recover from a serious breakdown in a grand tour. Unless it was a one-time hunger collapse.
If the rider recovers well afterwards and eats well and sensibly, he will be even stronger than normal the day after the hunger pang. Because his body has been able to absorb more glycogen than would normally be possible. I don't think that Evenepoel's limited moments of weakness are linked to a deficiency or incorrect nutrition. However, it depends on his physique and relationship with his weight. Also his way of racing. That can still be tinkered with a bit. But reducing his weight (too) much (59 or 60 kg) might result in a great performance during one or two mountain stages.... but also to a serious breakdown from which he will not recover during that GT.
I mean for me it's quite clear. Evenepoel can't beat Ganna at the WCTT when he's at his GT weight. Which means he needed to lose weight to be competitive at the Vuelta. How much he needed to lose, I'll even disregard at the moment. But losing an amount of weight on such a small amount of time, and even during the Vuelta, when your body is extremely easy to be brought out of balance. In an age where people say that Visma was able to get so much ahead due to proper food and nutrition. This definitely raises a red flag for me. Even more so when professional cyclists say that this is the most logical conclusion, instead of "he sometimes has a bad day".

We can just agree to disagree. If Remco has no issues before the Tour and during the Tour (crash) we'll know more.
 
No arguments left ?
My arguments are clear and valid, they make sense and are backed up by what someone like Dumoulin (who has also faced the same issues, searching for his ideal weight for GT/GC) has said. There is nothing left to say to you. You believe he beats Ganna in a long flat TT with 1kg over his climbing weight. You believe your eyes are fine and you don't see the elephant staring you in the face when you compare how he looked in the two past Vuelta's. So, no problem, you are free to think whatever. I'm not going to waste my time any further.
 
This - Almeida dropped similarly but battled on and limited his losses to the extent that he was able to finish top 10 overall which worked for him as a rider less suited to winning stages from breaks than Remco.

I don’t think he tanked the day but I do think there was a conscious decision once the gap got to a minute and a half to pull the pin entirely and reset the goals far enough down not be chased constantly by Jumbo Visma.
Agree. Almeida had to fight till the end. He doesn't (isn't able to) win stages. So, the only goal was to struggle and fight for a top 10. Evenepoel, once it was clear that the podium was gone, wasn't interested in finishing at 4 minutes. To end in the general top 6 or 7. But not being able to recover and winning stages. Evenepoel proved to have made the proper choice, even suffering from that one bad and disappointing day. Evenepoel even could have won a extra stage (by not being surprised by Poels before a sprint and ending second with a tyre)). Then he would have won 4 stages, the points jersey and the mountains jersey.
 
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I mean for me it's quite clear. Evenepoel can't beat Ganna at the WCTT when he's at his GT weight. Which means he needed to lose weight to be competitive at the Vuelta. How much he needed to lose, I'll even disregard at the moment. But losing an amount of weight on such a small amount of time, and even during the Vuelta, when your body is extremely easy to be brought out of balance. In an age where people say that Visma was able to get so much ahead due to proper food and nutrition. This definitely raises a red flag for me. Even more so when professional cyclists say that this is the most logical conclusion, instead of "he sometimes has a bad day".

We can just agree to disagree. If Remco has no issues before the Tour and during the Tour (crash) we'll know more.
 
But that is precisely my point. Evenepoel is disadvantaged in both a Worlds TT and a Grand Tour. Combining both. Vingegaard, Pogacar, Roglic do not combine those GT's and the worlds TT, or don't have the ambition to perform in that worlds TT at the highest level. The same with Ganna. He sometimes participates to a GT. But only to try to win a stage or the TT. And or helping the leader of his team in some stages. Not having to loose weight or training for long and steep climbs.

But I think that's the strength and merit of Evenepoel. That he tries anyway. Real cycling enthusiasts ( not the haters and critics) like to see that. As a result, he often loses a worlds TT or a GT. Despite that handicap, Evenepoel has already won a GT, a worlds TT and a world road championship. Roglic, Vingegaard, Pogacar, Thomas, Bernal, Wiggins, Froome.... didn't. And Ganna didn't succeed in winning the worlds TT and road.
Maybe, one day, Evenepoel will focus only on a GT (the Tour ?). Not preparing the worlds TT. Or not participating to a grand Tour, but only performing at his best (ideal weight) in the worlds TT. Combined with another spring (Milano-San Remo, Flanders... ?).
 
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This - Almeida dropped similarly but battled on and limited his losses to the extent that he was able to finish top 10 overall which worked for him as a rider less suited to winning stages from breaks than Remco.

I don’t think he tanked the day but I do think there was a conscious decision once the gap got to a minute and a half to pull the pin entirely and reset the goals far enough down not be chased constantly by Jumbo Visma.
Man, the stage hadn't even started yet, they were only just starting the climb, f*cking Jimi Janssens was still in the peloton. If that's not tanking i don't know what it. And they certainly tried for longer than up to the point the gap was 90s because that point had passed for a long while, when suddenly the gap skyrocketed (meaning, that was the moment they decided to pull the plug). Obviously he'd never lose half an hour had he kept fighting, but it would still have been easily 10 minutes, maybe more. So Almeida finished 9th in GC, Evenepoel finished 12th with 3 stagewins.

So Remco has a chance finishing ahead of G. But since G won't contest for GC. It comes with an *.
 
Agree. Almeida had to fight till the end. He doesn't (isn't able to) win stages. So, the only goal was to struggle and fight for a top 10. Evenepoel, once it was clear that the podium was gone, wasn't interested in finishing at 4 minutes. To end in the general top 6 or 7. But not being able to recover and winning stages. Evenepoel proved to have made the proper choice, even suffering from that one bad and disappointing day. Evenepoel even could have won a extra stage (by not being surprised by Poels before a sprint and ending second with a tyre)). Then he would have won 4 stages, the points jersey and the mountains jersey.

wonder if Remco would have fought for a high GC had he won stage 8 (had he known the sprint was for the stage win) and the TT? Had he had 3 stage wins heading into the Tourmalet, maybe battling to only lose 3-4 minutes would have been more palatable for him
 
I think Remco evenepoel just had a bad day in the Vuelta 2023, just like Pogacar just had a bad day in the Tour 2023.

Remco showed good shape in the climbs, when was in the breakaways and in the first mountain stages of the race. Certainly he would be climbing with the top 10 GC guys in all the mountain stages of the Vuelta, except for the fateful day in the Tourmalet.
He didn't have a single elite performance on any of the mountains. He was good in breakaways, the Arinsal sprint and the short climbs. Before his bonk, he was already dropped on Javalambre.

Pogi on the other hand, had several of his best performances in the Tour.
 
He didn't have a single elite performance on any of the mountains. He was good in breakaways, the Arinsal sprint and the short climbs. Before his bonk, he was already dropped on Javalambre.

Pogi on the other hand, had several of his best performances in the Tour.
I didn't said he did some elite perfomances, but i think he did some solid perfomances.
We can all agree that he is not yet at the level of Vingegaard and pogacar in terms of Grand tours, to do some elite perfomances.
 
My arguments are clear and valid, they make sense and are backed up by what someone like Dumoulin (who has also faced the same issues, searching for his ideal weight for GT/GC) has said. There is nothing left to say to you. You believe he beats Ganna in a long flat TT with 1kg over his climbing weight. You believe your eyes are fine and you don't see the elephant staring you in the face when you compare how he looked in the two past Vuelta's. So, no problem, you are free to think whatever. I'm not going to waste my time any further.
Was he at his climbing weight at the start of the Giro?
 
I didn't said he did some elite perfomances, but i think he did some solid perfomances.
We can all agree that he is not yet at the level of Vingegaard and pogacar in terms of Grand tours, to do some elite perfomances.
Elite like Landa on Angliru would have been enough. But he didn't show the climbing ability of a podium contender at all during the Vuelta.
 

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