Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Mayomaniac]

If he isn't sick, I really hope that he finishes the Vuelta and doesn't pull out. Overcoming adversity and getting (at least ) another stage win out of it will be good for him in the long run and a good learning experience.

 

[Extinction]

Never seen a rider of that caliber lose that much time without illness or injury. Weird.

Calling someone who has won a GT a one day rider only makes zero sense. He's clearly got a weakness with recovery. But he's won a GT. Not top 10, not podium, won. I agree it makes on re-assess his ability to win more GT's, but that's it. Many GT riders have a worse GT record than him. Most.

Tough day for the kid. Kind of glad he's not sick actually. Huge disappointment for the race and his career.

Perhaps it's trying to fit an Elephant inside a box? What I mean Is this kid won junior races, without a period of under 23 to see how he would have faired in the Baby Giro or Tour del Avenire. That would have given a better indication of his actual worth.

 

[dobrien]

Ineos becomes even more imperative at this point if SQS cannot figure out what happened or what training/diet to do so that he does not collapse midway through a GT

I know it sounds harsh but top.sport is a brutal business and I very much doubt Ineos has the same level of interest after what we saw today. Ineos wants someone they believe can win the Tour, and what they saw today was very much not it.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Perhaps it's trying to fit an Elephant inside a box? What I mean Is this kid won junior races, without a period of under 23 to see how he would have faired in the Baby Giro or Tour del Avenire. That would have given a better indication of his actual worth.

I don't quite see how riding Baby Giro or Avenir would've given a better indication of his actual worth in these type of races than for example winning a Vuelta when still eligible for U23...

 

[dobrien]

I would always have thought that the best riders (or athletes in general) also have the best natural ability to recover. That is even if it doesn't matter how fast you are able recover from an effort while you are competing (like for e.g. classics specialists). Just cos if you recover faster it also means you can train harder and thus get in better form.

Remco obviously recovers much better than the average racer, but when you get to the very top against guys like Ving who are basically human toxic waste refineries, it gets a lot harder. Riders who are flying the 3rd week of a GT are relatively rare birds; most people are finishing on their hands and knees. If you have any issues at all with recovery, even that precious 1-2%, you are going to be at a big disadvantage as the days and climbs pile up.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Ineos wants someone they believe can win the Tour, and what they say today was very much not it.

Good thing (for them) they didn't bin off Wiggins in 2010 when he lost 25 minutes on Zoncolan stage and dropped out of top 10 of the Giro that year...

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

Remco won the Vuelta already, last year. So no pressure for 2023 Vuelta.

Maybe SQS tested something with regard to TdF 2024. Maybe difference about training, nutrition, regeneration, medicine, or something else.

As someone here said, reminds me much of Basso:

2005: loses more than 40mins on Stelvio,
2006: Basso unbeatable.

Could be the same for Remco.

 

[Bolder]

He recovered just fine in last year's Vuelta. To be dropped basically the moment the road went uphill after an easy sprint stage suggests a problem way beyond inability to recover.

 

[perico]

So how did he manage to win the 2022 Vuelta then? He comfortably beat Mas and Ayuso who now sit 23 minutes ahead of him on GC. Something isn't right at this Vuelta and I don't think its because he can't ride grand tours.

Ayuso was 19 years old and riding in his first ever GT. If anyone has room to grow as a GT rider, it’s that guy. Mas, on the other hand, came into the Vuelta fresh from spending a month with a sports psychologist trying to unwrap why he suddenly was losing minutes on descents and Covid19. Mas also got visibly stronger when the race entered the 3rd week, while Remco seemed to stagnate. Mas may not have the ability to shred a race or deliver a knockout blow, but the guy recovers during a GT as well as anyone. He also excels on the toughest climbing stages, so the harder the better for him. This year’s Vuelta is A LOT more demanding than last year’s as well.

I don’t know that Remco can or can’t compete with the cream of the crop, but beating Mas and a 19 year old Ayuso is a whole different story than taking on peak Jumbo. They make the race a lot harder. Mas had Verona and Valverde last year, but they aren’t going to punish you like Roglic-Vingegaard-Kuss.

 

[Extinction]

I don't quite see how riding Baby Giro or Avenir would've given a better indication of his actual worth in these type of races than for example winning a Vuelta when still eligible for U23...

Granted, but his colapse today is, I don't say a red flag, but almost.

 

[perico]

Remco won the Vuelta already, last year. So no pressure for 2023 Vuelta.

Maybe SQS tested something with regard to TdF 2024. Maybe difference about training, nutrition, regeneration, medicine, or something else.

As someone here said, reminds me much of Basso:

2005: loses more than 40mins on Stelvio,
2006: Basso unbeatable.

Could be the same for Remco.

2005-2006 Basso? We have a pretty good idea what happened there… but it can’t be discussed in these quarters of the CN forum.

 

[dobrien]

Good thing (for them) they didn't bin off Wiggins in 2010 when he lost 25 minutes on Zoncolan stage and dropped out of top 10 of the Giro that year...

The two situations aren't remotely similar. Wiggo was British and their pet project.

 

[Tim Cahill]

My boy Simon Yates just catches strays everywhere

 

[Mayomaniac]

Remco won the Vuelta already, last year. So no pressure for 2023 Vuelta.

Maybe SQS tested something with regard to TdF 2024. Maybe difference about training, nutrition, regeneration, medicine, or something else.

As someone here said, reminds me much of Basso:

2005: loses more than 40mins on Stelvio,
2006: Basso unbeatable.

Could be the same for Remco.

2005 Basso also finished 2nd in the Tour late that year, so it's hard to compare...

 

[Sciatic]

Good thing (for them) they didn't bin off Wiggins in 2010 when he lost 25 minutes on Zoncolan stage and dropped out of top 10 of the Giro that year...

Was that the bike toss/bike parking stage?

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Was that the bike toss/bike parking stage?

No that was in Giro del Trentino i believe.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

a lot of drama in this topic. I look at it from a more simple point of view
-Evenepoel has won a GT last year, so clearly everything stated he can't climb with the best etc is largely ***
-what I noticed, Evenepoel needs a near perfect preparation for a GT, with 100% focus and nothing going wrong in the race.

In that sense, he's not a natural "GT talent" like say a Pogacar or Vingegaard who even at 95% would still do well.
If Remco participates at another GT and everything goes 1000% according to plan with no bad days, he can still very much win a GT or at least contend for the podium.

It's just harder for him to get it right.

 

[Vudy]

It's simple. If Pog or Vinge are at the same GT as him he can not win even with 1000% going as planned.

 

[Hugh Januss]

The only thing that makes sense to me is overtraining between the Worlds and the Vuelta, particularly the emphasis on 'training on the long climbs' and doing huge multi mountain trainings perhaps in a period where you should actually be doing race specific efforts rather than super high volume work is the only plausible thing I can conjure up.

How did Kuss, Vingegaard, and Roglic do at Worlds? They stayed home and prepared for the Vuelta? Hum!

 

[Andy schleck]

Excuses again.

 

[wickedw]

The problem I have with the "just a bad day" explination is that, first off, that's one hell of a bad day but also that he just phoned it in at some point. Almeida dropped earlier but kept fighting to retain a chance at top 10, and he managed.

This phoning it in could potentially mean he can go in breaks, but that's not what this vuelta was about. You should've gone to the Tour if you wanted to do that and it would have been fine. If he had a bad day, I'd expect a GC rider to do what almeida did and keep going and hopefully have a better time next day. Yes you lost your chance on winning but you get to keep racing for a gc, the kind of rider he wants to become. A collapse like this is more psychological than physical.

I've been going on all year about weight, tactics in racing and it's all wrong. They've turned him more and more into a one day rider rather than a gc one, it's all they know at sqs perhaps?

 

[CyclistAbi]

Hang in there, champ.

 

[Nick2413]

I feel bad for the guy. This was a sad way to go down. On the other hand, it makes it even more clear how epic all the riders who were able to keep pace are. Guys like Cian are relative unknowns but have a big future.

I’m still not completely convinced he can’t contest GTs against top competition but it needs to come together at some point or all hope will be gone.

 

[saunaking]

So how did he manage to win the 2022 Vuelta then? He comfortably beat Mas and Ayuso who now sit 23 minutes ahead of him on GC. Something isn't right at this Vuelta and I don't think its because he can't ride grand tours.

way way more TT kms
Ayuso super young GT debutant
Mas isnt that great

Not saying he cant ride GTs, winning them is another story. Lots of great riders with only 1 GT win
Yates and Valverde and Wiggins come to mind.

edit-also, just like I always kept/keep hope alive for Simon Yates, i gotta keep hope alive for Remco - he did not have optimal prep for this race.
He decided to wing it after focus on the ITT gold.

 

[saunaking]

The problem I have with the "just a bad day" explination is that, first off, that's one hell of a bad day but also that he just phoned it in at some point. Almeida dropped earlier but kept fighting to retain a chance at top 10, and he managed.

This phoning it in could potentially mean he can go in breaks, but that's not what this vuelta was about. You should've gone to the Tour if you wanted to do that and it would have been fine. If he had a bad day, I'd expect a GC rider to do what almeida did and keep going and hopefully have a better time next day. Yes you lost your chance on winning but you get to keep racing for a gc, the kind of rider he wants to become. A collapse like this is more psychological than physical.

I've been going on all year about weight, tactics in racing and it's all wrong. They've turned him more and more into a one day rider rather than a gc one, it's all they know at sqs perhaps?

What benefit does he get from riding like Almeida today (if it was even possible for him)?
Salvage a top 10???

If he were 7min down he probably wouldnt be allowed in any breaks