The Schleck Bros

[craig1985]

The court decided that even though it's well established he paid Fuentes, it's not been established what he paid Fuentes for

Mind boggling stuff.

Funny how?

Because people are still amazed that Contador being a strong TT rider is a very recent phenomenon, when it always has been the opposite.

 

[BroDeal]

If this rumour is true and it does happen and Riis manages to find a sponsor, Michael Rogers will be under Riis' nose next year.

Rogers needs to go to Garmin. He is a good replacement for Wigans, and has better road palmares than that ungrateful git.

 

[Christian]

So how come Frank was never suspended and was cleared? Does his family have a lot of friends in very high places in Luxembourg's legal system?

Back up a second there. Basically what you're implying is that my country's legal system is corrupt, which it is not. Even though we are a small country, that does not mean that everyone knows everyone; we are, after all, half a million people. Everyone does know the Schlecks, like everyone knows Contador in Spain.

Also, the legal system is not really involved in this affair at all. The federal prosecutor got the bank receipts from the German newspaper and gave them to ALAD, Agence Luxembourgeoise Anti Dopage, who then investigated in the matter. He was suspended from his team, called in for hearings, and in the end ALAD decided that the bank receipts were not proof enough that he had doped, and he was not banned. I don't know how anyone of the legal system or of ALAD should have behaved wrongly in this affair.

Furthermore, I'd like to remind you of cases such as Valverde's, where the evidence is far greater, and the Spanish minister of sports says: "Valverde did not dope. End of investigation."
Or Floyd Landis, who is called in for hearings and does not appear, and now has an arrest warrant in France.

My assumption on the whole is that Fränk indeed did want to dope and transferred the 7000 € to Fuentes' account therefore, but was smart enough to pull out before any real harm, and any real doping, was done. Too bad for the 7000 € but what can you do.

The point is, you cannot suggest anyone from Luxembourg's legal system or Anti Doping Agency didn't do their job, when there was just no sufficient evidence.

The schleck brothers ditching Riis. Wow that's a huge surprise.....to anyone who has put less than half a second of thought into it.
It's been obvious for a LOOOONG time..

You should not forget that the Schlecks litterally owe everything to Riis. Andy probably would have made it even without Riis, but Fränk had a really hard time finding a team at first. As an amateur in France, he was often told that they had plenty of guys like him and that he did not stick out at all. It was Riis who believed in him and who engineered all his wins.

Now I know feelings probably don't count for so much in this business, but I definitely think that one should consider this. Also Riis has a lot of connections with Luxembourg: he started racing here, Kim Andersen and many of his riders live here ... Basically, Saxo Bank already is Team Schleck. Why would they leave Riis behind when they already have all they need?

I'm surprised they're not going to Radioshack, though.

Well they were going to go to Radioshack last year, but Armstrong didn't want Fränk along, remember? Oh no, wait - Andy just talked to Lance about his cool yellow wristbands. And all of a sudden they're joining Radioshack. Maybe stories like that should teach us how to judge articles like the Gazzetta's ...

If that article is true, they want to associate themselves with Biver. The guy behind the doping at Astana in 2007. Again, only a surprise for Schleck fans.

Who is the only Luxembourger known in international cycling who is not involved with Team Schleck yet? Oh, right - Marc Biver. Might as well get him on board too!
It seems, however, that Biver does not paricularly want to go back to cycling: He's the president of the Swiss Triathlon Federation and owns Tridem, a sports marketing agency. One of his clients is Dario Cologna, gold medal winner in cross-country skiing in Vancouver. For him, it's a question of the "circumstances": "The mentality of Vinokourov and Kasheshkin cannot be compared to that of Fränk and Andy. I'd need garanties in ethics and working conditions. However, I have a company that runs very well."

(http://tageblatt.editpress.lu/sports/38714.html)

I wonder whether he really was "the guy behind the doping at Astana", or whether he was simply a naive, unexperienced guy who happened to be the one in charge and who therefore was made responsible for everything.

 

[BroDeal]

My assumption on the whole is that Fränk indeed did want to dope and transferred the 7000 € to Fuentes' account therefore, but was smart enough to pull out before any real harm, and any real doping, was done. Too bad for the 7000 € but what can you do.

That is freaking hilarious.

 

[karlboss]

Rogers needs to go to Garmin. He is a good replacement for Wigans, and has better road palmares than that ungrateful git.

wouldn't be a bad move.

 

[Christian]

That is freaking hilarious.

... as in: it's not true?

I know I can't prove it - but at the same time no one can proof he doped!

 

[Cerberus]

... as in: it's not true?

I know I can't prove it - but at the same time no one can proof he doped!

The fact is he made a large payment to a doping doc and you even admit it must have been for the purposed of doping. This payment strangely correlated with his success as a rider. The logical assumption is that he doped, not that he decided to dope and then regretted it and didn't follow through and then started getting results powered by the unbelievable strength of his integrity.

It is actually very dubious whether it's even possible to get top results in cycling clean, and when you start making excuses for riders who have been paying doping docs for training advice it just smacks of fanboy. Would you really be equally charitable towards a rider you didn't like? Are you equally charitable towards, say Basso (never been proven to dope)? Ulrich? Valverde? Perhaps their scruples just kicked in at a slightly later point in the process. It hasn't been proven that any of those riders doped. It is possible they regretted their decision to dope, just like it's possible that Frank Schelck did. Possible, but not likely.

 

[Kazistuta]

If it quacks, it's most likely a duck.....

I don't believe this story for a single second - a potential new sponsor interested in Cancellara, the Schlecks and Kim Andersen would do a lot better just joining an already established environment (Riis Cycling) - that way they will get the complete package from the start.

But I wouldn't exactly say that the brothers owe everything to Bjarne Riis. When Frank signed orginally, as far as I recall his wage the first year was paid by the Luxembourg Cycling Federation... And I believe Riis owe thanks to Frank for getting access to one of Cyclings greatest talents, little brother Schleck...

 

[Sasquatch]

and what would riis do with rogers?

If Michael Rogers had a team that would support him. 8 men and he was fully fit, he would come top 5.

 

[Cerberus]

If it quacks, it's most likely a duck.....

I don't believe this story for a single second - a potential new sponsor interested in Cancellara, the Schlecks and Kim Andersen would do a lot better just joining an already established environment (Riis Cycling) - that way they will get the complete package from the start.

Good point, the only reason I can see for setting up a new team with all of Riis' stars and his primary DS would be if they had a specific beef with Riis, and I haven't heard anything about that.

 

[Sasquatch]

Rogers needs to go to Garmin. He is a good replacement for Wigans, and has better road palmares than that ungrateful git.

Nah - Farrar is there. He won't be in a better position.

My other thought is he will be Armstrong's replacement at RS next year.

If Rogers has an excellent TDF this year, he needs to get rid of Columbia and find a team that would support him. There are a few around that would take him on if he gets the results.

 

[Christian]

It is actually very dubious whether it's even possible to get top results in cycling clean, and when you start making excuses for riders who have been paying doping docs for training advice it just smacks of fanboy. Would you really be equally charitable towards a rider you didn't like? Are you equally charitable towards, say Basso (never been proven to dope)? Ulrich? Valverde? Perhaps their scruples just kicked in at a slightly later point in the process. It hasn't been proven that any of those riders doped. It is possible they regretted their decision to dope, just like it's possible that Frank Schelck did. Possible, but not likely.

I have to say Basso and Ullrich are actually also riders I like, for various reasons, but I indeed do not like Valverde so much.

Anyways I think I might have been missunderstood here. I don't think that Fränk pulled out of his deal with Fuentes because he morally regretted it or because he had a bad conscience, but because he foresaw the whole thing would be busted. If you look at the facts, this theory is, in my opinion, not so unlikely:
The transfer was made in March 2006 and Fuentes was arrested in May. It is also, in my opinion, unlikely that Fuentes did anything without being paid first. This leaves us with a very narrow time gap where they could have met, and almost no time to get the whole thing started. Someone must have warned Fränk to pull out of the whole thing because it was doomed to be busted soon.
I don't think he had any more scruples than any other rider involved with Fuentes or doping in general, but that he was smart enough to pull out early:

He has confirmed that he has made the bank transaction to the Swiss account in march 2006, in order to receive training advice by experts who presumably worked with some of the biggest names in the sport. At the time, Fränk Schleck had no reason to believe that this was not the case. There was no suspicion on his behalf of any unlawful action. He interrupted the contact after taking advice from his father and his near friends.

He admits having made a serious blunder in taking contact to and transferring the money to the bank account and he became early aware that he should not continue any working relationship with these people.

Furthermore, there is even evidence supporting his claims:

- His full bank statements show no further transactions to the Swiss bank account.

- His blood values from then and now show no indication of any tampering, manipulation or anything that could suggest the use of illegal substances or methods. This has been confirmed by Dr Rasmus Damsgaard, Bispebjerg University Hospital who has analyzed the values.

- There is no evidence in the full Operacion Puerto case file that suggests his involvement in the case. This has been repeatedly confirmed by the UCI - being in possession of the complete case file. This further supports the explanation that Frank Schleck has given.

(Saxo Bank Press release 03/10/2006)

I think that in this matter it is very difficult to convince anyone of anything, especially those who find it "very dubious whether it's even possible" to win anything in professional cycling without doping, implying that all of the best riders are doped. Honestly, if that is your opinion to start with, there is no point in discussing anything.

I usually try not to get involved in doping discussions and I hate the German media who focuses on nothing but doping in cycling, but I know I started this and I feel like this thread is drifting off into the clinic ...

 

[karlboss]

If Michael Rogers had a team that would support him. 8 men and he was fully fit, he would come top 5.

in spain or italy maybe

 

[Cerberus]

I have to say Basso and Ullrich are actually also riders I like, for various reasons, but I indeed do not like Valverde so much.

Anyways I think I might have been missunderstood here. I don't think that Fränk pulled out of his deal with Fuentes because he morally regretted it or because he had a bad conscience, but because he foresaw the whole thing would be busted. If you look at the facts, this theory is, in my opinion, not so unlikely:
The transfer was made in March 2006 and Fuentes was arrested in May. It is also, in my opinion, unlikely that Fuentes did anything without being paid first. This leaves us with a very narrow time gap where they could have met, and almost no time to get the whole thing started. Someone must have warned Fränk to pull out of the whole thing because it was doomed to be busted soon.
I don't think he had any more scruples than any other rider involved with Fuentes or doping in general, but that he was smart enough to pull out early:

Furthermore, there is even evidence supporting his claims:

(Saxo Bank Press release 03/10/2006)

Well Saxo Bank has a rather obvious conflict of interest and Damsgaard specifically is known to interpret how suspicious blood profiles are with an eye on who is paying his salary. Still I'll grant that it's a valid point that he wasn't implicated in operation Puerto and it is possible that he got out early.

I think that in this matter it is very difficult to convince anyone of anything, especially those who find it "very dubious whether it's even possible" to win anything in professional cycling without doping, implying that all of the best riders are doped. Honestly, if that is your opinion to start with, there is no point in discussing anything.

I usually try not to get involved in doping discussions and I hate the German media who focuses on nothing but doping in cycling, but I know I started this and I feel like this thread is drifting off into the clinic ...

First of all I said top results meaning winning and placing well in major races, not any wins at all. Secondly it not my opinion to start with, it's the conclusion I've reached based on a fairly extensive amount of evidence both experimental and from actual racing. Still you're right that this is a Clinic topic. I could start a thread there, but if you prefer avoid doping discussion we can just drop the subject.

ETA: To be fair I am basing this mainly on results in the Tour de France. I suspect that it's equally true for Classics, but I don't actually know it.

 

[Christian]

Yeah I don't know ... I mean you can start a thread if you'd like to, and I'll probably repeat the same things I said here, but in my opinion those discussions never really lead anywhere.

In the end I'd say we'll never know for sure and so everyone can choose what he thinks is more likely! I don't have your experience in riding, and maybe (probably) my point of view is a bit naive but in this specific case, I think it is not possible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Fränk Schleck doped, and therefore in dubio pro reo. (That's kind of how the whole thing started - someone suggested that he got off because he had connections, whereas I think they had to let him go because of the reasonable doubt).

 

[Cerberus]

Yeah I don't know ... I mean you can start a thread if you'd like to, and I'll probably repeat the same things I said here, but in my opinion those discussions never really lead anywhere.

In the end I'd say we'll never know for sure and so everyone can choose what he thinks is more likely! I don't have your experience in riding, and maybe (probably) my point of view is a bit naive but in this specific case, I think it is not possible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Fränk Schleck doped, and therefore in dubio pro reo. (That's kind of how the whole thing started - someone suggested that he got off because he had connections, whereas I think they had to let him go because of the reasonable doubt).

Oh, I agree with you on that, there wasn't enough evidence to convict him in a court of law, or an anti-doping inquiry, but an internet forum has different standard for admitable evidence and for "conviction". My argument is that he's guilty, not that he should be suspended. In relation to suspension I agree that it hasn't been proven that he wasn't just seeking legitimate training advice, no matter how implausible I find it.

 

[BroDeal]

Nah - Farrar is there. He won't be in a better position.

Farrar on Garmin is not like Cav on Columbia-HTC.

 

[Angliru]

If Michael Rogers had a team that would support him. 8 men and he was fully fit, he would come top 5.

At which event?? At the Tour? Why would a team fully support a rider that hasn't shown the ability to even podium let alone compete in the mountains consistently with the contenders in a grand tour?

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

^ agreed.
Also I disagree with his claim, no chance.
Rogers is not good enough to compete (realisticly, especially with the talent coming through at the moment) at the tour.

 

[Cobber]

Nah - Farrar is there. He won't be in a better position.

My other thought is he will be Armstrong's replacement at RS next year.

If Rogers has an excellent TDF this year, he needs to get rid of Columbia and find a team that would support him. There are a few around that would take him on if he gets the results.

He's not old enough

 

[Sasquatch]

At which event?? At the Tour? Why would a team fully support a rider that hasn't shown the ability to even podium let alone compete in the mountains consistently with the contenders in a grand tour?

Armstrong, in 2006 said that Rogers could win the TDF one day. He saw the results from Ferrari. Unfortunately, he's had a few years he would rather forget. Trust me - he is going to show something in the Tour this year which will make teams take notice.

And I might add. He's someone that isn't afraid to attack.

 

[karlboss]

Armstrong, in 2006 said that Rogers could win the TDF one day. He saw the results from Ferrari. Unfortunately, he's had a few years he would rather forget. Trust me - he is going to show something in the Tour this year which will make teams take notice.

And I might add. He's someone that isn't afraid to attack.

In 2006, since then he's not done enough, yes there have been a few health issues, but there are some new names around that there weren't before. Nibali, Kreuziger, Schleck, Martin all come to mind. oh yeah and one Alberto Contador.

You're right to find his potential he needs to get off Columbia or at least out of train duties and have a solid climbing domestique, but he'll be doing well to ever improve on his top 10 finish.

 

[craig1985]

Back up a second there. Basically what you're implying is that my country's legal system is corrupt, which it is not. Even though we are a small country, that does not mean that everyone knows everyone; we are, after all, half a million people. Everyone does know the Schlecks, like everyone knows Contador in Spain.

Also, the legal system is not really involved in this affair at all. The federal prosecutor got the bank receipts from the German newspaper and gave them to ALAD, Agence Luxembourgeoise Anti Dopage, who then investigated in the matter. He was suspended from his team, called in for hearings, and in the end ALAD decided that the bank receipts were not proof enough that he had doped, and he was not banned. I don't know how anyone of the legal system or of ALAD should have behaved wrongly in this affair.

Furthermore, I'd like to remind you of cases such as Valverde's, where the evidence is far greater, and the Spanish minister of sports says: "Valverde did not dope. End of investigation."
Or Floyd Landis, who is called in for hearings and does not appear, and now has an arrest warrant in France.

My assumption on the whole is that Fränk indeed did want to dope and transferred the 7000 € to Fuentes' account therefore, but was smart enough to pull out before any real harm, and any real doping, was done. Too bad for the 7000 € but what can you do.

The point is, you cannot suggest anyone from Luxembourg's legal system or Anti Doping Agency didn't do their job, when there was just no sufficient evidence.



You should not forget that the Schlecks litterally owe everything to Riis. Andy probably would have made it even without Riis, but Fränk had a really hard time finding a team at first. As an amateur in France, he was often told that they had plenty of guys like him and that he did not stick out at all. It was Riis who believed in him and who engineered all his wins.

Now I know feelings probably don't count for so much in this business, but I definitely think that one should consider this. Also Riis has a lot of connections with Luxembourg: he started racing here, Kim Andersen and many of his riders live here ... Basically, Saxo Bank already is Team Schleck. Why would they leave Riis behind when they already have all they need?



Well they were going to go to Radioshack last year, but Armstrong didn't want Fränk along, remember? Oh no, wait - Andy just talked to Lance about his cool yellow wristbands. And all of a sudden they're joining Radioshack. Maybe stories like that should teach us how to judge articles like the Gazzetta's ...



Who is the only Luxembourger known in international cycling who is not involved with Team Schleck yet? Oh, right - Marc Biver. Might as well get him on board too!
It seems, however, that Biver does not paricularly want to go back to cycling: He's the president of the Swiss Triathlon Federation and owns Tridem, a sports marketing agency. One of his clients is Dario Cologna, gold medal winner in cross-country skiing in Vancouver. For him, it's a question of the "circumstances": "The mentality of Vinokourov and Kasheshkin cannot be compared to that of Fränk and Andy. I'd need garanties in ethics and working conditions. However, I have a company that runs very well."

(http://tageblatt.editpress.lu/sports/38714.html)

I wonder whether he really was "the guy behind the doping at Astana", or whether he was simply a naive, unexperienced guy who happened to be the one in charge and who therefore was made responsible for everything.

Apologies, was not my intention.

 

[Christian]

No problem!

 

[skidmark]

Armstrong, in 2006 said that Rogers could win the TDF one day. He saw the results from Ferrari. Unfortunately, he's had a few years he would rather forget. Trust me - he is going to show something in the Tour this year which will make teams take notice.

And I might add. He's someone that isn't afraid to attack.

Armstrong also said in 2007-08 that Stijn Devolder would be a grand tour contender.