ChrisE said:
Are you saying on anything but a hilly course that AC and AS are equal TT's? I don't agree. If anything a hilly TT should make them more equal seeing as AS is a climber.
No, is that what you're saying? I'm saying let us compare apples and apples, i.e. 2009 and 2011, and consider 2010 as an outlier (for everyone, not just AC-AS), given the conditions.
ChrisE said:
It's funny, this forum is so divided it can't even agree on seemingly obvious facts. If you think the AC of 2007/2008/2009 is the same level as the AC of 2010 and 2011 then I don't know what to say to that, especially in reference to the Schecks.
Erm, where did I say that?
I'll repeat the bit you quoted seeing as you misunderstood:
Andy Schleck is younger than Contador, in 2007 you would have expected that he still had plenty of development left in him and probably only coming into his natural peak around now. In 2007 Contador was much closer to his natural peak thus we wouldn't expect him to still be improving now (plateauing instead).
On the clinic side of things it seems everyone has dropped off a bit in the late 00s, I don't know why we would exclude the Schlecks from this whilst being of the opinion that it holds for Contador, Evans, Basso, Leipheimer, Menchov, Vinokourov et al.
ChrisE said:
Facts get reduced to opinions drawn upon ideological lines in here on certain subjects, I guess. Maybe if LA says something mean about AS then the opinion will sway.
A doped up AC with a current AAF riding for Saiz, Bruhneel, and Riis gets cut an awful lot of slack in here, I wonder why?
So now you're accusing me of thinking AC is clean, because Lance doesn't like him?
ChrisE said:
I don't think so. We see how they ride relative to eachother for those 3 weeks. I say they are closer now, you don't for reasons I am not sure I will ever understand.
In 3 weeks which may only have 3 or 4 meaningful stages, and only 1 or 2 of those raced in a way which can give us any indication. You can get just as good a read from a decent week long race, if both show up for it. Perhaps wishful thinking on my behalf.
ChrisE said:
You seem to contradict yourself by saying everybody but Horner has dropped back, but then I am still not sure what you are saying about whether AS has gotten stronger.
In a doping context yes, Horner is obviously doping more significantly than ever before, for everyone else it seems like they may have eased up a bit (including the Schlecks - what this makes of Andy's overall level I'm not sure, which is why I suggested comparing 2007 Giro 2008 Tour to today's "numbers").
ChrisE said:
Why did AC drop back? If you say because he is doping less then we are in agreement. If you say the delta between AC and AS is the same, ie they both dropped back, then we are not in agreement. Unless, they are both doping less and AS is closer to AC naturally than anybody thought.
Let's agree to disagree. Thanks for the discussion.
How's this for you:
Doping
Andy decrease
Contador decrease
"Natural" Development
Andy increase
Contador steady
I don't see why Andy would be doping more under Andersen at Leopard than he was under Riis and Andersen at CSC/Saxo, or before his brother got found out making payments. Especially when the general trend seems to be a "cleaner" peloton.