The Shrinking Vuelta

[Kvinto]

Paris - Nice is the best weeklong race for years, but the 2011 edition is a disaster.

Tirreno Adriatico is a great race (though due to it's changeability it is not without bad editions), but Tirreno 2011 is pretty flawless.

 

[Rouetheday]

I don't get two-week races, they are just too long and obviously not as prestigeous as GTs, which (as was mentioned) often are "1-2 week" races without any shrinking.

We have 11-days Volta and 5-day Burgos in the same time, Volta is bigger in any regard, any but the field. I think it's better to have something like 9-days race (to cover two week-ends) instead of engaging ourselves in self-deception that "longer means better" (i have no idea how the Volta was held during 3 weeks before 1980 taking into account that Portugal is not as big as France, Italy or Spain). It won't necessarily change things in this certain case (Portugal/Burgos) but generally i find it wise, i prefer a 1 week race with 1 week of racing instead of a 2 week race with the same 1 week of racing.

But it doesn't work this way in the case of GTs because decreasing any of them to two weeks would mean the course won't cover whole (bigger part of) the country, so it is not the tour of this country but just a race of several regions.

If you look at the route maps of any of the GT's, you'll see that great swaths of the country are not visited even with three weeks of racing. And this doesn't seem to bother the organizers one bit- they excacerbate this problem by frequently having stages in neighboring countries. The next Tour spends several days in Belgium, a recent Giro and Vuelta started in Holland, IIRC.

 

[Kvinto]

If you look at the route maps of any of the GT's, you'll see that great swaths of the country are not visited even with three weeks of racing. And this doesn't seem to bother the organizers one bit- they excacerbate this problem by frequently having stages in neighboring countries. The next Tour spends several days in Belgium, a recent Giro and Vuelta started in Holland, IIRC.

1. They go to other countries because of the commercial
2. The course should contain mountains, so it's obvious that a GT visits some regions every year while some places are visited once a 5 years
3. It's funny that you give this argument because this problem (the problem of covering the country) stands the most sharply in the "untouchable" Tour de France.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Paris - Nice is the best weeklong race for years, but the 2011 edition is a disaster.

Tirreno Adriatico is a great race (though due to it's changeability it is not without bad editions), but Tirreno 2011 is pretty flawless.

Agree with this, although I must say I enjoyed 2011 PN, not the battle for GC for that was decided even before it started but most of the stages seperatly were really enjoying imo. Especially with De Gendt going all primal

Only started following the Tirreno first time in 09 and tbh the last 3 editions were really exciting Scarponi vs Garzelli battle in 10 was sweet

On the subject of 2 week long stage races, I think it should at least be experimented with. Not by downgrading one of the GT's but by as mentioned by Craig, bringing back the Tour of Germany as a 2 week race. Preferably with proper financial backing -UCI do something good for once please- for 3 years or so. If it doesn't work one can always return to the traditional one week race. But a 2 week race seems to be a good idea tbh.. Could be held in August for example between TdF and Vuelta or during the Vuelta as a substitute for gaining fitness for the Worlds.

 

[theyoungest]

Paris-Nice is the most overrated race on the calendar. I'll take T-A everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

Have you just started watching bike racing this season? Tirreno is a great race, but Paris-Nice is usually unique because it covers just about every aspect of cycling: a techinical prologue, echelons, sprints, steep hills, gradual climbs, tricky descents, crap weather, great weather, boring scenery, great scenery... all in one week.

 

[Rouetheday]

1. They go to other countries because of the commercial
2. The course should contain mountains, so it's obvious that a GT visits some regions every year while some places are visited once a 5 years
3. It's funny that you give this argument because this problem (the problem of covering the country) stands the most sharply in the "untouchable" Tour de France.

Well, firstly, I would hope that you agree with me that the 'commercial' aspects of a race should not take priority over the 'sporting' aspects.

Also, I'm curious as to why you put the word 'untouchable' in quotations. Are you just referring back to McQuaid's comments, or do you agree with me that the Tour is most definitely not 'untouchable'?

 

[Kvinto]

Well, firstly, I would hope that you agree with me that the 'commercial' aspects of a race should not take priority over the 'sporting' aspects.

Also, I'm curious as to why you put the word 'untouchable' in quotations. Are you just referring back to McQuaid's comments, or do you agree with me that the Tour is most definitely not 'untouchable'?

I think that 1-3 days of commercial in other countries is OK
Saying 'untouchable' i'm of course refering to Mr McQuaid's comments
I want all the GTs to be 'untouchable' in length but according to Mr McQuaid only the Tour deserves such a treatment (imo apart of it's 'craziest' prestige (which no way i can question), TDF is the most questionable of GTs)

 

[roundabout]

Why is the Tour the most questionable of GTs?

 

[Kvinto]

i'm talking about the geography of France, maybe the ward 'questionable' is a bit incorrect but i meant the huge terrain of flat

 

[roundabout]

Even with the huge terrain of flat and ignoring some interesting areas they can create a better route than the Vuelta in most years.

 

[Kvinto]

yes, they can, but i think it's because Vuelta has awful designers Spain is mountainous country, of course it doesn't make Vuelta a Tour level but they can design better parcours than they do it now

 

[Rouetheday]

Hypothetical Two Week Tour de France

St. 1 A Depart in LeMans w/ a short TTT finishing on the auto circuit.
St. 2&3 Flat/rolling.
St. 4 MTF on the Puy de Dome.
Rest Day/Transfer.
St. 5 Flat/rolling.
St. 6&7 The Alps-one descent finish, one MTF.
St. 8 Flat/rolling.
St. 9 ITT.
St. 10 MTF (Ventoux, Mende, Mt. Aigoual, whatever).
Rest Day/Transfer.
St. 11 Flat/rolling.
St. 12&13 The Pyrenees- again, one descent finish, one MTF.
St. 14 Sprinter's stage to Bordeaux.
St. 15 ITT into Paris (like '89, but somewhat longer).

The only riders who could quibble with this course would be the sprinters and I really couldn't give a rat's a$$ for their opinion. Of course, I can think of at least 20,000 others who would probably have fervent objections to this course- the other members of this forum , so give me your best/worst shots.

 

[pastronef]

Hypothetical Two Week Tour de France

a TWO WEEK tour de france is UNTHINKABLE

 

[Kvinto]

i'm sorry but we can consider it only in a fully theoretical aspect, because even in the darkest nightmare i can't imagine why should the most profitable event in cycling be cut in length

 

[gregrowlerson]

I also see it as interesting that the Tour De France often has a lot of its racing outside of France (which sort of goes against it's actual name). If it is virtually impossible to go to all corners of the country over the 3 week period then why should so much of it be spent elsewhere? People have said for commercial interests; I suppose another difficulty is that many mountain passes run through borders - for example the Agnello climb was in Italy on stage 18 where they eventually made it to the Galibier finish back on French soil. And all of stage 17 was in Italy, correct? So is this neccesary? What about '09 when stages 15 & 16 were in the Swiss alps. Or are there not enough Alpine mountains that are actually in France to just have the mountains in France each year?

 

[roundabout]

Of course there are enough mountains in the Alps that are in France. The Tour just seems to ignore/rarely use some of them.

 

[Rouetheday]

i'm sorry but we can consider it only in a fully theoretical aspect, because even in the darkest nightmare i can't imagine why should the most profitable event in cycling be cut in length

There you go again, preoccupied with commercial considerations. Seriously, though, the Tour has way too much prominence compared to the rest of the calendar, especially the Giro and Vuelta. I feel like the only way to induce GT riders to contest at least one of these other races (which I assume everyone here would like to see, right?) is to shorten all three to two week affairs. I'll admit it would also be helpful if we could get a more substantial purse for these events as well as more extensive TV coverage. Kvinto, perhaps you know of some eccentric Russian oil billionaire who could be cycling's Roman Abramovich?

 

[ultimobici]

One thought that comes to mind after reading this thread.

Proof positive that "Mondialisation" is a fatally flawed idea. The UCI is trying to spread the top level far too thinly across the globe. There is top flight competion across the world, good enough to promote the sport. Why not concentrate on ensuring the established calendar is well run and raced?

 

[Derrick]

Getting back to the original proposition behind this thread why would anyone be surprized if the Tour of Spain was cut to two weeks? After all it's not so very long ago that nobody would have contemplated medal status track meetings without the pursuit and kilo. Even worse, that these iconic events have, in effect, been replaced by an emasculated and sanitized version of the keirin and the "team sprint".

 

[pastronef]

There you go again, preoccupied with commercial considerations. Seriously, though, the Tour has way too much prominence compared to the rest of the calendar, especially the Giro and Vuelta. I feel like the only way to induce GT riders to contest at least one of these other races (which I assume everyone here would like to see, right?) is to shorten all three to two week affairs. I'll admit it would also be helpful if we could get a more substantial purse for these events as well as more extensive TV coverage. Kvinto, perhaps you know of some eccentric Russian oil billionaire who could be cycling's Roman Abramovich?

I think it's not commercial. For me, as a cycling fan, those 23 days every month of July (rest days press conferences and rides included ) are untouchable

 

[sublimit]

Getting back to the original proposition behind this thread why would anyone be surprized if the Tour of Spain was cut to two weeks? After all it's not so very long ago that nobody would have contemplated medal status track meetings without the pursuit and kilo. Even worse, that these iconic events have, in effect, been replaced by an emasculated and sanitized version of the keirin and the "team sprint".

I've totally lost interest in track after my 2 fave events(4K pursuit, points race) were scrapped at World level. Hopefully Vuelta organizers will fight tooth and nail to keep it 3 weeks GT status otherwise its could be the start of being on a slippery slope to oblivion like track racing is under the UCI.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Even with the huge terrain of flat and ignoring some interesting areas they can create a better route than the Vuelta in most years.

Not 'they can', but 'they do'.

The Tour has lots of options that it doesn't pursue, opting instead to rely on the same old same old.

The Vuelta, however, has far, far more different options that it doesn't pursue.

In terms of the terrain, they're doing a very good job in recent years of finding and using new climbs, whether short or long (which the Tour is not doing, relying mostly on using the same ones as the marquee stages) or bringing back long-forgotten places (eg Peña Cabarga), however they're not doing a very good job of designing the stages around them, instead thinking that the climb is an end unto itself rather than a means to one.

 

[gregrowlerson]

That is something that is good about the 2012 TDF. They are including many new or rarely used climbs, and for a change doing away with the same old, same old. Fillies, Grand Columbier, Peragudes, etc. Plus back to a good amount of ITT. Just a proper queen stage away from being a fantastic route.

 

[Skip Madness]

That is something that is good about the 2012 TDF. They are including many new or rarely used climbs, and for a change doing away with the same old, same old. Fillies, Grand Columbier, Peragudes, etc. Plus back to a good amount of ITT. Just a proper queen stage away from being a fantastic route.

I particularly like the way they innovatively dispensed with the same old, same old by placing the Aubisque, Tourmalet, Aspin and Peyresourde on the stage to Luchon.

I'm being facetious, I actually agree with you. Baby steps, but it's progress. But... bloody Aubisque... and Tourmalet... and Aspin and Peyresourde.

 

[gregrowlerson]

I particularly like the way they innovatively dispensed with the same old, same old by placing the Aubisque, Tourmalet, Aspin and Peyresourde on the stage to Luchon.

I'm being facetious, I actually agree with you. Baby steps, but it's progress. But... bloody Aubisque... and Tourmalet... and Aspin and Peyresourde.

Classic post! But actually the peyresourde hasn't been used since '07, so I am glad it's back next year. And La Tousierre first time since '06, plus no Alpe duez, AX3-Domaines, Galibier, etc. It is a very different tour as far as the mountains route goes.