The Sports Illustrated Article

[sniper]

This was just posted by the Swordsman in the Sticky-steady-Flandis thread:

Interview with Mike Anderson (see above)

"

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/4571355/Lance-Armstrong-faces-tough-ride-ex-mechanic/

hard to argue with that.

 

[runninboy]

It’s unfortunate that this is what all the fuss was about (the SI article). I was hoping for something that would not be so easily dismissed as “hearsay and innuendo” What makes it even worse is some of the most serious allegations come from the same source that earlier called for legalization of doping in the peloton. I ‘m afraid the lack of corroborating evidence will doom this story like so many others. I caught an interview with one of the authors and he even came off shaky when grilled about what was in the story. Hopefully the FDA has more than what SI did. If this is indicative of the quality of information that was fit to print, I can only imagine what was edited out. I hope we are getting a better return on our tax payer dollars, but history suggest otherwise.

kind of shot yourself in the foot there, you believe(since you have no personal knowledge) that SI printed all this without any corroborating evidenceif they did something so foolish and opened them up to sure litigation from a man who has shown no hesitancy to sue, if they print as you suggest allegations without evidence, what would make them edit the story at all what would be their motivation for editing if they showed such poor judgement toward editing for self preservation in the first place? If they do not edit something without evidence what exactly would they edit?

 

[sniper]

kind of shot yourself in the foot there, you believe(since you have no personal knowledge) that SI printed all this without any corroborating evidenceif they did something so foolish and opened them up to sure litigation from a man who has shown no hesitancy to sue, if they print as you suggest allegations without evidence, what would make them edit the story at all what would be their motivation for editing if they showed such poor judgement toward editing for self preservation in the first place? If they do not edit something without evidence what exactly would they edit?

agree a 100%

btw
This quote from Anderson struck me as interesting:

We hear the same lies over and over again and they become truths. One of the comparisons I've made about Armstrong to countless people is the kind of stuff that came out of the mouth of George W Bush about weapons of mass destruction and the war in Iraq. It was a bunch of made-up stuff and I think it's pretty funny that the media advisers to George Bush and Lance Armstrong are in the same building in Austin, Texas.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-s...e-ex-mechanic/

 

[Benotti69]

This was just posted by the Swordsman in the Sticky-steady-Flandis thread:

hard to argue with that.

the fanboys will don't worry about that.

Wonder did Michael Anderson ever meet with Stephen Swart and compare notes.....

 

[theswordsman]

On the lack of corroborating evidence front, recall the Novitsky trip to Interpol where he met with the AFLD & OCLAESP, along with others. Part of the reason for the visit was said to be to learn how to transfer evidence to the United States.

Before he left his AFLD position, Pierre Bordry worked with Jeff Novitsky. He had the six 1999 Tour de France samples that were found to contain EPO. They were properly stored. He offered to have them tested, or shipped to the US, or whatever Novitsky wanted.

I read a quote later and documented it at the time that a member of the AFLD also said they had two years of Tour de France samples stored, I believe 2000 & 2001, and they'd be happy to get them out of the fridge. It's interesting that they saved them after the eight year SOL had passed, but they offered them along with any other evidence they had against Armstrong.

The OCLAESP had the syringes and things found in the Astana dumpster during the 2009 Tour de France. It was said that there was DNA from eight different people on the doping items.

The Spanish Civil Guard were at the meeting, and it was said that, among other things, they were to check Armstrong's old apartment - the one with the refrigerator in the closet.

Then recall that Novitsky and the Feds were on this case before we knew about it, and had access to wire taps if they needed them, so imagine how many conversations could have been recorded since then.

They subpoenaed the 40 boxes of documents from LeMond's lawsuit versus Trek, and those for the SCA lawsuit. They also got records from Trek and Nike. Novitsky used to be an investigator for the Internal Revenue Service, so you know accounts and financial records have been scrutinized.

That's just a part of what I recall reading, and that's from a case where hardly any details have come out. Weeks go by without a whisper. So I'm pretty sure they'll have hard evidence for a lot of things that will surprise people.

Everything I've mentioned I've posted links and quotes for in past posts. I'm not going to look it all up for this one, but it's all here and on Google.

TexPat made the paper in New Zealand

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/4571360/Armstrongs-bloody-dodgy-legacy

 

[Benotti69]

On the lack of corroborating evidence front, recall the Novitsky trip to Interpol where he met with the AFLD & OCLAESP, along with others. Part of the reason for the visit was said to be to learn how to transfer evidence to the United States.

Before he left his AFLD position, Pierre Bordry worked with Jeff Novitsky. He had the six 1999 Tour de France samples that were found to contain EPO. They were properly stored. He offered to have them tested, or shipped to the US, or whatever Novitsky wanted.

I read a quote later and documented it at the time that a member of the AFLD also said they had two years of Tour de France samples stored, I believe 2000 & 2001, and they'd be happy to get them out of the fridge. It's interesting that they saved them after the eight year SOL had passed, but they offered them along with any other evidence they had against Armstrong.

The OCLAESP had the syringes and things found in the Astana dumpster during the 2009 Tour de France. It was said that there was DNA from eight different people on the doping items.

The Spanish Civil Guard were at the meeting, and it was said that, among other things, they were to check Armstrong's old apartment - the one with the refrigerator in the closet.

Then recall that Novitsky and the Feds were on this case before we knew about it, and had access to wire taps if they needed them, so imagine how many conversations could have been recorded since then.

They subpoenaed the 40 boxes of documents from LeMond's lawsuit versus Trek, and those for the SCA lawsuit. They also got records from Trek and Nike. Novitsky used to be an investigator for the Internal Revenue Service, so you know accounts and financial records have been scrutinized.

That's just a part of what I recall reading, and that's from a case where hardly any details have come out. Weeks go by without a whisper. So I'm pretty sure they'll have hard evidence for a lot of things that will surprise people.

Everything I've mentioned I've posted links and quotes for in past posts. I'm not going to look it all up for this one, but it's all here and on Google.

TexPat made the paper in New Zealand

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/4571360/Armstrongs-bloody-dodgy-legacy

see 2 posts above

Maybe LA will be moving to NZ when it all ends with his tail firmly between his legs

 

[Granville57]

You also need to realize that any potential jury is just as likely to be made up of people who will consider that type of evidence and make the same conclusion miloman did as it is to be made up of people like you who accept it as rock solid.

Last time for me on this point, on this thread:

And wisdom, along with simple logic, would dictate that the SI article should not be confused for the investigation itself. Or even for a report issued by the investigation. This seems to be a more and more common theme among those looking for something more substantial. This is not the investigation. When the investigation does go public, the story will certainly be much more complete and compelling.

 

[Iker_Baqueiro]

lance is going down. The writing is on the wall.

 

[SaftyCyclist]

The total lack of interest in an Olympic medal later in his career now makes sense, which I'm sure he would have loved, the IOC are more expensive/trickier/impossible (delete as appropriate) to pay off and bury things than the UCI. Look what happened to Tyler. Do Olympic test samples get kept for longer too?

 

[mountainbiker]

What struck me most in the SI article was this quote on page 5 :

After Armstrong's cancer diagnosis, former teammates say, even Ferrari questioned his methods. "I remember when we were on a training ride in 2002, Lance told me that Ferrari had been paranoid that he had helped cause the cancer and became more conservative after that,"

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1180944/5/index.htm#ixzz1BmwuAvrO

I mean if this is true :
A doctor thinks your cancer was caused by all the chemicals you put in your body. After you miraculously recover from the cancer you not only start doing that same stuff again but you also :
- start a cancer foundation
- keep living the lie and kowingly encourage/force young athletes and team mates to follow your footsteps

The amount hypocrisy needed to do such things is beyond comprehension...

Don't get me wrong, I think all pro athletes dope and live their lives with the constant lie, but this goes waaay beyond that and in my opinion should be considered a criminal offence. (compare it with having unprotected sex when you know you are HIV +)

 

[TexPat]

see 2 posts above

Maybe LA will be moving to NZ when it all ends with his tail firmly between his legs

Don't make jokes like that. This is a very small country.

 

[thehog]

Best post written in long time.

What struck me most in the SI article was this quote on page 5 :



I mean if this is true :
A doctor thinks your cancer was caused by all the chemicals you put in your body. After you miraculously recover from the cancer you not only start doing that same stuff again but you also :
- start a cancer foundation
- keep living the lie and kowingly encourage/force young atletes and team mates to follow your footsteps

The amount hypocrisy needed to do such things is beyond comprehension...

Don't get me wrong, I think all pro athletes dope and live their lives with the constant lie, but this goes waaay beyond that and in my opinion should be considered a criminal offence. (compare it with having unprotected sex when you know you are HIV +)

 

[Benotti69]

Don't make jokes like that. This is a very small country.

great interview, chapeau

what's happening with The Hobbit movie?

 

[Granville57]

The amount hypocrisy needed to do such things is beyond comprehension...

Yes indeed. The mere possibility of that is what drives many here to such a degree of disgust.

The total lack of interest in an Olympic medal later in his career now makes sense, which I'm sure he would have loved

I have wondered about this too. If we are to believe that LA was just so supremely talented, able to seemingly will his way to victory when he most wanted (needed?) it, then why not focus all that "talent" just once, on securing an Olympic Gold Medal? It is universally accepted as one of the pinnacles of sporting achievement. So why not further the legacy, since that seems to be behind so much of what drives him?

 

[TexPat]

great interview, chapeau

what's happening with The Hobbit movie?

Sorry, Tolkien is not my cup of tea. I haven't got a clue, though I have seen a few very short people with extremely hairy toes milling about.

 

[peloton]

What struck me most in the SI article was this quote on page 5 :



I mean if this is true :
A doctor thinks your cancer was caused by all the chemicals you put in your body. After you miraculously recover from the cancer you not only start doing that same stuff again but you also :
- start a cancer foundation
- keep living the lie and kowingly encourage/force young athletes and team mates to follow your footsteps

The amount hypocrisy needed to do such things is beyond comprehension...

Don't get me wrong, I think all pro athletes dope and live their lives with the constant lie, but this goes waaay beyond that and in my opinion should be considered a criminal offence. (compare it with having unprotected sex when you know you are HIV +)

+1

excellent first post btw.

 

[Granville57]

the average Joe's take on SI

Some interesting perspective:

I had posted a story on the "Media" thread about a colleague who was in complete denial about the possiblity of LA having done anything wrong:

I have a good one from last week at work. A couple of loud-mouth...

He then launched into a missive about how, "Lance must be the smartest person in the world then? Is that what you're saying! You mean to tell me that he somehow figured out how to fool aaaallll those testers? C'mon, those guys are tested before every single race, and probably afterward too. You think he magically found some secret that no one else has?"

Anyway...
I just spoke with him a few moments ago, and, as I had suggested, he had picked up the latest copy of SI. His tone was much more somber this time around. But he did reveal something worth noting. He found the information--names, time frame, details, etc.--to be a bit overwhelming as he was totally unfamiliar with the plot. He said he'll need to re-read the article a few more times in order to absorb it all.

I think it's worth noting that had the SI article included more info (as many of us had hoped) it very well may have gone completely over the heads of the average SI reader. The uncertainty in his voice, due to all this "new" and perplexing information is exactly what team StrongArm relies on to sway them back to the other side--seeds of doubt and disbelief in something so apparently overwhelming to them. Again, it's the ability to hide behind a lie due to the enormity of the lie.

Amazing.

 

[sartain]

What struck me most in the SI article was this quote on page 5 :



I mean if this is true :
A doctor thinks your cancer was caused by all the chemicals you put in your body. After you miraculously recover from the cancer you not only start doing that same stuff again but you also :
- start a cancer foundation
- keep living the lie and kowingly encourage/force young athletes and team mates to follow your footsteps

The amount hypocrisy needed to do such things is beyond comprehension...

Don't get me wrong, I think all pro athletes dope and live their lives with the constant lie, but this goes waaay beyond that and in my opinion should be considered a criminal offence. (compare it with having unprotected sex when you know you are HIV +)

It happens more frequently than you would care to imagine.

 

[luckyboy]

Weeks go by without a whisper. So I'm pretty sure they'll have hard evidence for a lot of things that will surprise people.

Pretty excited when I think of how much info and evidence will come out at the end of all this.

 

[Sanitiser]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHol7WW2A8g

Lance Armstrong's War indeed

 

[Polish]

WMD verssu PED

agree a 100%

btw
This quote from Anderson struck me as interesting:

We hear the same lies over and over again and they become truths. One of the comparisons I've made about Armstrong to countless people is the kind of stuff that came out of the mouth of George W Bush about weapons of mass destruction and the war in Iraq. It was a bunch of made-up stuff and I think it's pretty funny that the media advisers to George Bush and Lance Armstrong are in the same building in Austin, Texas.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-s...e-ex-mechanic/

It appears TexPat not only loves Cancer, but also loves Terrorists

And while that type of rhetoric may sell papers in New Zealand, comparing Lance to George misses the mark entirely lol.
Seriously Lance is much more like Saddam:

Saddam denied the existance of WMDs.
Lance denied the existance of PEDs.

Saddam spokesman Bagdad Bob denied the existance of WMDs
Lance spokesman Fabiani denied the existance of PEDs

Colin had evidence of Mobile WMD Labs (bus) used to evade detection.
Floyd had evidence of Mobile Ped Labs (bus) used to evade detection.

Saddam used WMDs on his own people.
Lance used PEDs on his own team mates.

The world will be safer for our kids without Saddam
The world will be safer for our kids without Lance

Saddam's cronies were deathfully afraid of him.
Lance's cronies were deathfully afraid of him

The War against Saddam was viewed as a waste of taxpayer dollars
The War against Lance is viewed as a waste of taxpayer dollars

Saddam was hung by the neck until dead.
Lance will settle and retire happily as a semi billionaire.

Well, they are not EXACTLY alike.
Lance DID win the TdF one two three four five six seven times IN A ROW.

 

[peloton]

It happens more frequently than you would care to imagine.

Really? Care to elaborate?

 

[Granville57]

It appears TexPat not only loves Cancer, but also loves Terrorists

And while that type of rhetoric may sell papers in New Zealand, comparing Lance to George misses the mark entirely lol.
Seriously Lance is much more like Saddam:

Excellent work.

 

[Polish]

WMD versus PED

agree a 100%

btw
This quote from Anderson struck me as interesting:

We hear the same lies over and over again and they become truths. One of the comparisons I've made about Armstrong to countless people is the kind of stuff that came out of the mouth of George W Bush about weapons of mass destruction and the war in Iraq. It was a bunch of made-up stuff and I think it's pretty funny that the media advisers to George Bush and Lance Armstrong are in the same building in Austin, Texas.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-s...e-ex-mechanic/

It appears TexPat not only loves Cancer, but also loves Terrorists

And while that type of rhetoric may sell papers in New Zealand, comparing Lance to George misses the mark entirely lol.
Seriously Lance is much more like Saddam:

Saddam denied the existance of WMDs.
Lance denied the existance of PEDs.

Saddam spokesman Bagdad Bob denied the existance of WMDs
Lance spokesman Fabiani denied the existance of PEDs

Colin had evidence iof Mobile WMD Labs (bus) used to evade detection.
Floyd had evidence of Mobile Ped Labs (bus) used to evade detection.

Saddam used WMDs on his own people.
Lance used PEDs on his own team mates.

The world will be safer for our kids without Saddam
The world will be safer for our kids without Lance

Saddam's cronies were deathfully afraid of him.
Lance's cronies were deathfully afraid of him

The War against Saddam was viewed as a waste of taxpayer dollars
The War against Lance is viewed as a waste of taxpayer dollars

Saddam was hung by the neck until dead.
Lance will settle and retire happily as a semi billionaire.

Well, they are not EXACTLY alike.
Lance DID win the TdF one two three four five six seven times IN A ROW.

 

[Sanitiser]

Poilsh > Wonderlance

But then he does try harder.