The Sports Illustrated Article

[stephens]

FWIW, my own hemoglobin/hematocrit scores vary much more widely from test to test than those scores do (though mine are in the 30s not 40s), and I know I'm "clean". Surely Armstrong can find plenty of expert witnesses to provide more than reasonable doubt in regards to that sort of "data" being evidence of cheating. And since I'm hesitant to adopt a more lenient standard than that of our legal system in making my own judgements, that sort of data does nothing for me. Surely there is a smoking gun somewhere that is both admissible (i.e. not the '99 data) and conclusive?

To get back to another question, has anyone seen the original sponsorship deal with the USPS? I'd like to read it and explore this idea that breaking a rule in one's sport violates the terms of the deal to such an extent that millions of dollars of reparations will be due.

 

[Ferminal]

Why do these numbers bother you? I am trolling you FYI and you will fall into the trap if you try to use science to back up your issue with these numbers .

Where did I say the numbers bother me?

I said I get a "kick" out of it i.e. I find them funny.

 

[D-Queued]

FWIW, my own hemoglobin/hematocrit scores vary much more widely from test to test than those scores do (though mine are in the 30s not 40s), and I know I'm "clean". Surely Armstrong can find plenty of expert witnesses to provide more than reasonable doubt in regards to that sort of "data" being evidence of cheating. And since I'm hesitant to adopt a more lenient standard than that of our legal system in making my own judgements, that sort of data does nothing for me. Surely there is a smoking gun somewhere that is both admissible (i.e. not the '99 data) and conclusive?

To get back to another question, has anyone seen the original sponsorship deal with the USPS? I'd like to read it and explore this idea that breaking a rule in one's sport violates the terms of the deal to such an extent that millions of dollars of reparations will be due.

Do your Hemaglobin scores jump 23%, and your HCT 20% in a two week timeframe?

No testing for EPO on the rest day/day after?

Nice bump up for Ventoux as well.

Also looks like the famous 'showergate' test is not included here.

Dave.

 

[Ferminal]

Do your Hemaglobin scores jump 23%, and your HCT 20% in a two week timeframe?

No testing for EPO on the rest day/day after?

Nice bump up for Ventoux as well.

Also looks like the famous 'showergate' test is not included here.

Dave.

Also nice to see the peak Haemoglobin/HcT for the year is in what we now know to be the "donation window" in June around TdS/Dauphine.

 

[D-Queued]

Also nice to see the peak Haemoglobin/HcT for the year is in what we now know to be the "donation window" in June around TdS/Dauphine.

It is all for the charity.

Dave.

 

[Kennf1]

Surely Armstrong can find plenty of expert witnesses to provide more than reasonable doubt in regards to that sort of "data" being evidence of cheating.

No, instead he just ridiculed the people who questioned his numbers and then took them off his site in a huff.

 

[D-Queued]

No, instead he just ridiculed the people who questioned his numbers and then took them off his site in a huff.

...because the truth was so obvious nobody needed the confirmation the numbers provided.

Dave.

 

[MacRoadie]

TexPat dropped this in the Landis Links thread, but I thought I'd drop it here too in case anyone wants to discuss:

Bonds, Armstrong and double standards

 

[PotentialPro]

You guys are focusing on the HCT numbers. I find the T/E ratio suspect. Some of those ratios are garbage. A .2 to 1 ratio? Please!!! In my opinion, that sure seems to me that its being pushed artificially that way.

http://steroidreport.com/2008/03/22/testosterone-epitestosterone-ratio-test-false-negatives-and-false-positives/

This may be total crap, but, it is showing that up to a 360mg dose isnt being detected. That is around 3.5 cc of the standard 100mg per ml. Those ratios are so low, it doesnt make any sense at all.

How perfect, if you are trying to conceive a baby, Clomid is prescribed to some males. Check this out, and it could explain why exactly the T/E is messed up:

http://www.anabolictoday.com/detail-clomid.html

 

[D-Queued]

TexPat dropped this in the Landis Links thread, but I thought I'd drop it here too in case anyone wants to discuss:

Bonds, Armstrong and double standards

Good article, but this part confused me:

Bonds, Armstrong. Armstrong, Bonds. Let’s face it. Same story. Same guy.

What?! But one is an American hero! And the other is a sleazeball, a cartoon of a villain, a pro-wrestling heel!

When did Lance do pro-wrestling?

Dave.

 

[D-Queued]

You guys are focusing on the HCT numbers. I find the T/E ratio suspect. Some of those ratios are garbage. A .2 to 1 ratio? Please!!! In my opinion, that sure seems to me that its being pushed artificially that way.

http://steroidreport.com/2008/03/22/testosterone-epitestosterone-ratio-test-false-negatives-and-false-positives/

This may be total crap, but, it is showing that up to a 360mg dose isnt being detected. That is around 3.5 cc of the standard 100mg per ml. Those ratios are so low, it doesnt make any sense at all.

I was wondering about that. Looks weird.

Dave.

 

[MacRoadie]

When did Lance do pro-wrestling?

Dave.

Well, there may have been some oil involved on those nights out with McConaughey...

 

[Granville57]

TexPat dropped this in the Landis Links thread, but I thought I'd drop it here too in case anyone wants to discuss:

Bonds, Armstrong and double standards

Wow, that was a great read. Thanks for passing that along, and thanks to TexPat for the original.

This is the perfect article for those that don't know anything about, or follow, cycling. I will be forwarding it to many, many people. It also demonstrates how easily the media can be manipulated by LA's crew, whereas with other, more popular sports (in America) it would never happen.

Many baseball and football fans have been following the sport their entire lives and are very well versed in the history, even dating back several decades before many of them were born. But the ignorance of cycling, on the part of most Americans, is fully taken advantage of by the Livestrong spin machine.

This article offers an important, and sane, perspective to those who just don't know. It leaves very little room for argument (although I'm probably kidding myself with that one )

 

[sartain]

Wow, that was a great read. Thanks for passing that along, and thanks to TexPat for the original.

This is the perfect article for those that don't know anything about, or follow, cycling. I will be forwarding it to many, many people. It also demonstrates how easily the media can be manipulated by LA's crew, whereas with other, more popular sports (in America) it would never happen.

Many baseball and football fans have been following the sport their entire lives and are very well versed in the history, even dating back several decades before many of them were born. But the ignorance of cycling, on the part of most Americans, is fully taken advantage of by the Livestrong spin machine.

This article offers an important, and sane, perspective to those who just don't know. It leaves very little room for argument (although I'm probably kidding myself with that one )

It is a well written article. The troubling part are all of the comments that follow. It all comes back to Cancer . . . everyone knows somwone that has it . . . very few know someone who was shot at close range.

 

[ultimobici]

To get back to another question, has anyone seen the original sponsorship deal with the USPS? I'd like to read it and explore this idea that breaking a rule in one's sport violates the terms of the deal to such an extent that millions of dollars of reparations will be due.

If there is an ethics clause stipulating that doping will void the contract, every subsequent year of sponsorship is fraudulently obtained. As USPS is a government entity that opens up the federal angle and coupled with the fact that it is a group of people involved in the fraud invokes the RICO statutes. Hence the multiple damages/fines. At least that's my understanding.

 

[miloman]

That's It?

It’s unfortunate that this is what all the fuss was about (the SI article). I was hoping for something that would not be so easily dismissed as “hearsay and innuendo” What makes it even worse is some of the most serious allegations come from the same source that earlier called for legalization of doping in the peloton. I ‘m afraid the lack of corroborating evidence will doom this story like so many others. I caught an interview with one of the authors and he even came off shaky when grilled about what was in the story. Hopefully the FDA has more than what SI did. If this is indicative of the quality of information that was fit to print, I can only imagine what was edited out. I hope we are getting a better return on our tax payer dollars, but history suggest otherwise.

 

[sniper]

I was hoping for something that would not be so easily dismissed as “hearsay and innuendo”

It is not easily dismissed. Only those with eyepatches and blinders on will still be tempted to dismiss the SI info.

What makes it even worse is some of the most serious allegations come from the same source that earlier called for legalization of doping in the peloton.

so what? does that make him less credible? no, reversely, it shows a sense of reality that adds to his credibility, most would agree. Others, such as Bassons, have previously called for legalizing doping. Weed is legalized in the Netherlands, and guess what? The system works: you're in no risk of bying ****ty weed in the Netherlands.

I ‘m afraid the lack of corroborating evidence will doom this story like so many others. I caught an interview with one of the authors and he even came off shaky when grilled about what was in the story. Hopefully the FDA has more than what SI did. If this is indicative of the quality of information that was fit to print, I can only imagine what was edited out. I hope we are getting a better return on our tax payer dollars, but history suggest otherwise.

Don't be afraid, and don't dispair. The evidence mounted by Novitzky is overwhelming. The impact is gonna be heavy.
When the WADA president said Novitzky's revelations are gonna be Balco-size, you think he was speculating? When the SI (former LA fans) decided to print, you think they weren't a 100% sure Novitzky has definite proof against LA? When Landis twittered that LA is going to jail, you think he was bluffing?

 

[Granville57]

It is not easily dismissed. Only those with eyepatches and blinders on will still be tempted to dismiss the SI info.

Don't be afraid, and don't dispair. The evidence mounted by Novitzky is overwhelming. The impact is gonna be heavy.

And wisdom, along with simple logic, would dictate that the SI article should not be confused for the investigation itself. Or even for a report issued by the investigation. This seems to be a more and more common theme among those looking for something more substantial. This is not the investigation. When the investigation does go public, the story will certainly be much more complete and compelling.

 

[stephens]

It is not easily dismissed. Only those with eyepatches and blinders on will still be tempted to dismiss the SI info.

That's unfair. The guy read the article and gave his honest opinion and you should not resort to insulting him just because his judgement of it is different from your own. You also need to realize that any potential jury is just as likely to be made up of people who will consider that type of evidence and make the same conclusion miloman did as it is to be made up of people like you who accept it as rock solid.

 

[sniper]

That's unfair. The guy read the article and gave his honest opinion and you should not resort to insulting him just because his judgement of it is different from your own. You also need to realize that any potential jury is just as likely to be made up of people who will consider that type of evidence and make the same conclusion miloman did as it is to be made up of people like you who accept it as rock solid.

agreed. I should have made more clear that it's basically my opinion differing from that of Miloman. My apologies to Miloman for that.

Still, I think, with so many eyewitnesses and circumstantial evidence, we can nolonger deny that LA has been doping, and that he has been enabled to do so within a system in which the importance of money and stardom (predictably) outweigh the importance of a clean sport.

 

[Benotti69]

That's unfair. The guy read the article and gave his honest opinion and you should not resort to insulting him just because his judgement of it is different from your own. You also need to realize that any potential jury is just as likely to be made up of people who will consider that type of evidence and make the same conclusion miloman did as it is to be made up of people like you who accept it as rock solid.

oh i think the grand jury will see a lot more than the SI article, dont worry

 

[Benotti69]

It’s unfortunate that this is what all the fuss was about (the SI article). I was hoping for something that would not be so easily dismissed as “hearsay and innuendo” What makes it even worse is some of the most serious allegations come from the same source that earlier called for legalization of doping in the peloton. I ‘m afraid the lack of corroborating evidence will doom this story like so many others. I caught an interview with one of the authors and he even came off shaky when grilled about what was in the story. Hopefully the FDA has more than what SI did. If this is indicative of the quality of information that was fit to print, I can only imagine what was edited out. I hope we are getting a better return on our tax payer dollars, but history suggest otherwise.

maybe you should come and live in Europe where countries have multi party elections and you get a better run for your tax money.

oh and the cycling's not too bad if you like that sort of thing

 

[stephens]

Sure, but just remember that the grand jury will not be the ones deciding Armstrong's fate. Unless he makes a plea, he will be tried in a regular court in front of regular folks and with much stricter controls on what evidence will be presented (because, unlike in a grand jury hearing, he will be represented by lawyers who can get some evidence excluded and also present counter arguments to evidence that is accepted).

In other words, it's much easier to get a grand jury indictment than it is to get a trial conviction.

 

[Benotti69]

Sure, but just remember that the grand jury will not be the ones deciding Armstrong's fate. Unless he makes a plea, he will be tried in a regular court in front of regular folks and with much stricter controls on what evidence will be presented (because, unlike in a grand jury hearing, he will be represented by lawyers who can get some evidence excluded and also present counter arguments to evidence that is accepted).

let us hope, you and i, that it doesn't come down to a glove, ok

 

[runninboy]

That's unfair. The guy read the article and gave his honest opinion and you should not resort to insulting him just because his judgement of it is different from your own. You also need to realize that any potential jury is just as likely to be made up of people who will consider that type of evidence and make the same conclusion miloman did as it is to be made up of people like you who accept it as rock solid.

I disagree that is a theoritical assumption that would not apply here. We must admit that we as fans of the sport have a certain degree of bias. Both ways, it is because we have been around the sport for so long that we have these feelings toward certain riders their acomplishments & faults.
Most people who sit on a jury will not have this bias. they will look at the evidence on the face of it, and decide "if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck" they will not say things like "just because this man kept contact (secretly)with someone known as the largest facilitator of doping in the sport that it could have just been innocent friendship"
the jury would look at it the same if you were in business and best buddies with Bernie Madoff, if you kept in constant touch with him and you were in charge of a hedge fund good luck trying to stay out of jail. Like it or not juries still look at "guilt by association" you might not like it but that is far more likely than the scenario you presented.