Todays idiot masters fattie doper

[coinneach]

AAS - yes you are correct. Sorry i should have expanded on that.

I won't give much info on here but essentially it's already known but the application is wrong which is why people aren't getting results. The treatment test has the application correct which is why it's being tested. If it gets the green light, i'd expect it to be on the list.

It's similar in a sense to Idebenone. The Drug companies are trying to get it banned because it's insanely powerful.



He didn't need help as he was the cutting edge guy who you asked for help. From memory the important ones were Mag, zing, iron (although debatable and watch your lungs), folic acid, B Complex, B12 and then 1ml B12 injections EOD. Just to be clear that's not 1 of each, we're talking taking a number of each and i recall he said the B12 tablets were taken throughout the day. Wouldn't surprised me if that was 10+. The thing is tablets give crap absorption so you really do need to crank it up.

There was a bunch of Russian studies done by Sports Scientists which had a range of things from AAS and Vitamins. It was always vitamins with food (they reckoned meat) otherwise absorption isn't great and also 6 weeks on vitamins, 1 week off.

Interesting, and helpful to the "debate"
I remember in "Rough Ride" the way a vitamin pill was handed over as if it was blood from the holy grail.
But I also remember another poster here talking about giving a big pill to a rider in south America who went on to win the race (it was only vitamin, but he didn't let on)...I am sure a lot of it is in the mind.
And if you start going down that road, you are already admitting to yourself that it makes a difference.
Much better to avoid them totally, as one young British rider was claiming last year

 

[Ferminal]

I'd say a sizeable proportion of pros are "vitamin/supplement" fiends. Especially if going to the trouble of a doping program. Don't hear about it so much in cycling as opposed to other sports like Rugby with all the "tainted supplement" positives (Costas and the only ones in cycling?) The Del Monte boys loved their injections legal or otherwise and not just the sprinters. I think it was Lancaster and Brown who injected vitamins (legal at the time).

And this classic from the Russians last year:

http://inthedrops.wordpress.com/2013/08/03/what-the-russians-left-behind/

Would be surprised if there were many teams/well funded national academies who were not on top of this, at least when it comes to more traditional vitamins. There may be some lesser known and unproven stuff but if you're getting into that sort of quackery and quasi-legal sphere it would seem weird to not also consider tried and tested PEDs (which is what I didn't get about whole Dank/Essendon FC thing).

 

[gillan1969]

And does anyone from the UK remember which top UK rider from the 90s used to be looked after by Angus Fraser?

The same one that gets wheeled out on sky news every now and again to slag Armstrong off and told the daily mail that armstrong had him sacked for not wanting to dope. The same one that is close mates with Richard Moore who believes that no one from the 90s is clean.

yup...although some might say you were talking BS

 

[Catwhoorg]

I am guessing AAS is anabolic-androgenic steroids?



Any more info on this cancer treatment drug?

Do you say it's legal because it's not on a list you've seen?

I think you will find the WADA "illegal substance" definitions provide for unknown drugs not specifically named. I think despite what you claim here, the drug would be illegal thanks to those definitions.

Specifically S0.

Any pharmacological substance which is not addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the List and with no current approval by any governmental regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use (e.g drugs under pre-clinical or clinical development or discontinued, designer drugs, substances approved only for veterinary use) is prohibited at all times


In simple terms, until a drug is licensed for general (non clinical trial) use, it is banned.

Of course in practical terms that doesn't mean much, as there may be no way of detecting novel drugs, but then again a large number of convictions seem to be by non-test methods these days.

 

[Kicker661]

But I also remember another poster here talking about giving a big pill to a rider in south America who went on to win the race (it was only vitamin, but he didn't let on)...I am sure a lot of it is in the mind.
Much better to avoid them totally, as one young British rider was claiming last year

Yep, placebo works and has been proven to work very well.

I agree with the British rider, once you overcome the first time hurdle it's no longer a hurdle. It is quite a barrier the first time where it's 'im scared of needles, where do i jab, how do i store it, argh it's crystalised' etc. I don't know anyone who has hit PEDs only once.

Specifically S0.

In simple terms, until a drug is licensed for general (non clinical trial) use, it is banned.

Of course in practical terms that doesn't mean much, as there may be no way of detecting novel drugs.

Thanks for posting that. UCI doesn't test for it yet but i'd put money on it for certain that they will.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...From memory the important ones were Mag, zing, iron (although debatable and watch your lungs), folic acid, B Complex, B12 and then 1ml B12 injections EOD..

Regarding the bolded, that is a clear violation of the "no needles" policy..

The supplement combination sounds like a version of Conte's ZMA controversial product.

Not illegal == not doping!

 

[WinterRider]

Another one bites the dust:

http://www.usada.org/media/sanction-baker12414

Anyone know anything about this case, or care to comment?

At least he was up front that his doctor prescibed him some peds, no word in the linked document on whether he was treating a recognized medical condition or if it was just straight out cheating.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Baker was taking synthetic testosterone in a therapeutic dose under the care of a physician and although he disclosed that information during the sample collection, he did not follow the Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) requirements prior to competing.

37 years old and doing Testosterone in detectable quantities. 37!!

Get the TUE people! All those elites who had(??) Asthma know what I'm talking about.

http://www.clinchem.org/content/48/4/629.long 2002 research

 

[BroDeal]

Baker was taking synthetic testosterone in a therapeutic dose under the care of a physician and although he disclosed that information during the sample collection, he did not follow the Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) requirements prior to competing.

37 years old and doing Testosterone in detectable quantities. 37!!

Get the TUE people! All those elites who had(??) Asthma know what I'm talking about.

http://www.clinchem.org/content/48/4/629.long 2002 research

It is almost impossible to get a TUE for testosterone. It requires an expensive study that costs upwards of $10K, and you don't get one unless you have a verifiable pathology. Merely having T at the low end of the expected range is not enough. There was a long thread about this on Slowtwitch.

This guy tested positive during a two day competition where he placed 8th and 26th. He is either very very unlucky or was targeted.

 

[DirtyWorks]

It is almost impossible to get a TUE for testosterone. It requires an expensive study that costs upwards of $10K, and you don't get one unless you have a verifiable pathology. Merely having T at the low end of the expected range is not enough. There was a long thread about this on Slowtwitch.

I did not know that.

Would USADA demand the expensive study as a condition of getting the TUE? Otherwise it seems to me it is like those asthma TUE's elite cyclists had. Just get a doctor to approve it.


I guess slowtwitch is good for something after all...

 

[BroDeal]

I did not know that.

Would USADA demand the expensive study as a condition of getting the TUE? Otherwise it seems to me it is like those asthma TUE's elite cyclists had. Just get a doctor to approve it.

Just a prescription from a doctor is not enough. You need to prove you are clinically hypo gonadal. A poster on Slowtwitch who looked into it figured it might cost upwards of $20K for the tests needed to prove it. Also, USADA does not have set criteria for giving out a T TUE. They have refused to give out details of what test numbers are required. Each case is treated individually.

Chances are this bozo just went to the typical low-T quack who will give treatment to just about anyone.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Just a prescription from a doctor is not enough. You need to prove you are clinically hypo gonadal. A poster on Slowtwitch who looked into it figured it might cost upwards of $20K for the tests needed to prove it. Also, USADA does not have set criteria for giving out a T TUE. They have refused to give out details of what test numbers are required. Each case is treated individually.

Very informative! Thank you!


Seems like average cat3 performances from cached content.
http://pageeasy.com/31253123/

 

[Oldman]

It is almost impossible to get a TUE for testosterone. It requires an expensive study that costs upwards of $10K, and you don't get one unless you have a verifiable pathology. Merely having T at the low end of the expected range is not enough. There was a long thread about this on Slowtwitch.

This guy tested positive during a two day competition where he placed 8th and 26th. He is either very very unlucky or was targeted.

And it should be, particularly now that voodoo Low T clinics abound. Said it before and will say it again: if you have a problem seek the appropriate medical help. Just don't race on it. Nature's way of saying you need to compete at something else.

 

[proffate]

And it should be, particularly now that voodoo Low T clinics abound. Said it before and will say it again: if you have a problem seek the appropriate medical help. Just don't race on it. Nature's way of saying you need to compete at something else.

by that logic, nature is telling people with allergies or asthma not to compete in sport as well...

 

[D-Queued]

by that logic, nature is telling people with allergies or asthma not to compete in sport as well...

We should simply cancel the para games...

Dave.

 

[BroDeal]

by that logic, nature is telling people with allergies or asthma not to compete in sport as well...

By this logic--if you can call it that--everyone who sees a quack doctor who runs a low-T factory should be able to race on testosterone.

 

[blackcat]

Just a prescription from a doctor is not enough. You need to prove you are clinically hypo gonadal. A poster on Slowtwitch who looked into it figured it might cost upwards of $20K for the tests needed to prove it. Also, USADA does not have set criteria for giving out a T TUE. They have refused to give out details of what test numbers are required. Each case is treated individually.

Chances are this bozo just went to the typical low-T quack who will give treatment to just about anyone.

pretty easy to discern those supplementing with the peptides which spike your T.

neck beard growth to clavicle, and cheek beard growth to an inch of your eye well. The fact that hipsters will dress with beards makes it double easy

 

[Oldman]

by that logic, nature is telling people with allergies or asthma not to compete in sport as well...

Why couldn't they compete? They just can't take large amounts of steroids to do it. I'm not tall enough to play NBA level basketball...who should I complain to about that?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Why couldn't they compete? They just can't take large amounts of steroids to do it. I'm not tall enough to play NBA level basketball...who should I complain to about that?

Your mother and father.

 

[Oldman]

Your mother and father.

One's dead and the other chain smoked during pregnancy and in closed automobiles until I was 12. They really didn't care about sports so that wouldn't help. My beef would be with my 6'5" grandfather marrying my 5'(-) grandmother. How was that supposed to turn out. Sheeeesh. Good thing I like riding my bike.

 

[proffate]

Why couldn't they compete? They just can't take large amounts of steroids to do it. I'm not tall enough to play NBA level basketball...who should I complain to about that?

a) there is no level at which exogenous testosterone is acceptable, so "large amounts" is an exaggeration -- even supplementing back to low-normal levels is banned
b) asthma and allergy sufferers are permitted to take medication to bring their respiratory system back to "normal", which allows them to compete at a level higher than their true natural baseline if you take unmedicated respiration into account when defining their "baseline"

 

[MarkvW]

a) there is no level at which exogenous testosterone is acceptable, so "large amounts" is an exaggeration -- even supplementing back to low-normal levels is banned
b) asthma and allergy sufferers are permitted to take medication to bring their respiratory system back to "normal", which allows them to compete at a level higher than their true natural baseline if you take unmedicated respiration into account when defining their "baseline"

"There is no level at which exogenous testosterone is acceptable."

If that statement is true, then either (a) there is no valid medical use of exogenous testosterone; or (b) people with a valid medical need for exogenous testosterone should be banned from competitive cycling.

The statement appears obviously false to me.

 

[proffate]

By this logic--if you can call it that--everyone who sees a quack doctor who runs a low-T factory should be able to race on testosterone.

I wouldn't be bothered if they issued TUEs for late-onset hypogonadism and capped the level of testosterone that was permitted in conjunction with supplementation (similar to the hematocrit cap, except a low-normal level instead of an insane level). This level cap is actually already in place for those with a TUE, which you can get if for example both your testes are gone.

Is there evidence that physiological levels of T confer an unfair competitive advantage? I was under the impression that Lance et al. were on supraphysiological doses and the performance benefit was in allowing the user to train 6hrs+ day after day. I don't think most masters racers have the time to train like that anyway.

 

[proffate]

"There is no level at which exogenous testosterone is acceptable."

If that statement is true, then either (a) there is no valid medical use of exogenous testosterone; or (b) people with a valid medical need for exogenous testosterone should be banned from competitive cycling.

The statement appears obviously false to me.

I meant according to current USADA rules, in the absence of a TUE. TUEs are issued for "valid" medical needs, but they are very limited in the case of testosterone, i.e. there is a large grey area where a (non-quack) endocrinologist will recommend TRT but USADA will not accept it.

 

[Oldman]

I wouldn't be bothered if they issued TUEs for late-onset hypogonadism and capped the level of testosterone that was permitted in conjunction with supplementation (similar to the hematocrit cap, except a low-normal level instead of an insane level). This level cap is actually already in place for those with a TUE, which you can get if for example both your testes are gone.

Is there evidence that physiological levels of T confer an unfair competitive advantage? I was under the impression that Lance et al. were on supraphysiological doses and the performance benefit was in allowing the user to train 6hrs+ day after day. I don't think most masters racers have the time to train like that anyway.

You don't think?
You don't know.
They do and that's why the shades of gray with supplementation affect competition. I have asthma that crops up in competition during allergy season. I don't think I should be able to take Advair as a gateway to competition. It's very easy for any competitor to move past that; I've seen it.