Tom Danielson

[pmcg76]

Well I am sure if DPate said Froome were clean there would be a different reaction but you know that of course.

You mean people won't automatically believe everything Danny Pate says, but will judge each statement on its own merits? I agree.

You mean more like confirmation bias in here.

There is a difference in taking statements on merit and deciding if something is wrong/right based on a pre-set opinion.

 

[hrotha]

Yes, of course. Fortunately, the latter isn't happening right now.

 

[nayr497]

It's nice to see at least one guy (Pate) having some fun and giving Danielson a good bashing. I didn't like the PC comments some made.

 

[Catwhoorg]

I'm looking forward to the last two.

 

[filipo]

Re:

http://slipstreamsports.com/sponsors/

Informed-Choice is a quality assurance program for sports nutrition products, suppliers to the sports nutrition industry, and supplement manufacturing facilities.

I just hope those supplements weren't from Allen Lim's Skratch Labs.

Poor old Allen.

 

[Irondan]

I hope everyone got the bickering out of their systems in this thread. If not, there's a 3 day vacation for anyone that insists.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Well I am sure if DPate said Froome were clean there would be a different reaction but you know that of course.

He would ventilate his opinion, there lies the difference, in my humble opinion.

But, I really dont understand you involving Team Sky in this topic, I thought you were impartial?

 

[nayr497]

Gotta love that he said it was one of the worst nights of his life when he received the call.

No, you dirty cheater, going to bed every night as a liar should have been the worst night(s) of your life.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Re: Re:

[quote="irondan[/url


Question: If everyone in the World Tour is doping as you've said in public many times, who's Tom Danielson cheating?

I'll save you some time waiting for Benotti's answer (not that I agree with Benotti's views): He was cheating the clean guys who would have had a chance becoming pro if only the current generation of cheaters would not have cheated.

It was a rhetorical question, not serious on my part. I was just pointing out to Benotti that he can't have it both ways. Riders are %100 doped, or dopers cheat clean riders. Can't be both.

Tommy D dopes to win US races. That in and of itself is jacked up. Sure, maybe he'll bump Horner down a place probably more than half of the NRC is clean. I mean, a clean pro got to wonder, where does one go to find a clean race?

SoCal Masters race?

That's pretty good.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

[quote="irondan[/url


Question: If everyone in the World Tour is doping as you've said in public many times, who's Tom Danielson cheating?

I'll save you some time waiting for Benotti's answer (not that I agree with Benotti's views): He was cheating the clean guys who would have had a chance becoming pro if only the current generation of cheaters would not have cheated.

It was a rhetorical question, not serious on my part. I was just pointing out to Benotti that he can't have it both ways. Riders are %100 doped, or dopers cheat clean riders. Can't be both.

Tommy D dopes to win US races. That in and of itself is jacked up. Sure, maybe he'll bump Horner down a place probably more than half of the NRC is clean. I mean, a clean pro got to wonder, where does one go to find a clean race?

SoCal Masters race?

That's pretty good.

I try...

 

[Energy Starr]

Re:

I find Gaimon's reaction very disappointing

"Optum Pro Cycling’s Phil Gaimon, who recently wrote an article for Cyclingnews about what it means to be a clean rider, was one of the riders who didn’t want to comment about Danielson, whom he considers a friend. An obviously shaken Gaimon simply told Cyclingnews before the stage that his worldview had been shattered."

Gaimon's "worldview has been shattered", what? Was he born yesterday? What an idiot! Did he not watch il Giro then or the TdF, does he not know all the former dopers are now running teams, working for teams, working for race organisers, coaching etc.........

Gaimon aint ***, is he? When i hear that crap i think, yep that is another doper talking.........

Too bad Tommy boy doesn't have one those clean tats or whatever Gaimon has. Would have been cool to see it sheared off with a cheese grater

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

So much chatter about whether it's this or that supplement, whether he was trying to peak for Utah, why would he do this so late in his career? Noise, IMO.

Isn't the far more likely scenario, which is supported by history, that he just happened to get popped for something he's been doing the whole time? The idea that the testing catches people the one time they do it is laughable.

The thing is, it easy peazy lemon squeezy to defeat a t:e ratio test with transdermal testosterone. There's something like a 2-hour glow window. A CIR is something like six hours. The chances of USADA getting that lucky? No way. Well, unless they hit the lottery of lotteries.

Look, I'm unimpressed with USADA reference the Reasoned Decision. What the DoJ didn't hand them was already public. But if they went after Tommy D, somehow calculated his glow window and hit it?

Impressive.

Or, swapped a test. (see IAAF)
Or, Floyd Landis treatment. (let's test until we get the result we need.)
Or, IQ test failure.

It's a very hard test to fail and then he fails it years into practicing doping. AND it's a positive for synthetic Test. So, probably CIR test which isn't ordered unless he's crossed the 4:1 threshold. That is terrible luck.


Just checked USADA's site:
3 tests in 2015.
10 in 2014.
14 in 2013

Does anyone know who the test authority was? Date of the failed test? No mention on the UCI's hidden list yet.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

How long for the B sample? Or is JV still lining up donors to "make this go away"?

 

[Benotti69]

Former team mate, David 'anti-doping' Millar's 3 days of silence is deafening.

People criticise me for say the WT is 100% dirty, these so called clean teams and advocates have disappeared suddenly when now is the time to be heard!

 

[blackcat]

clean is about communicating clean and not testing positive.

it is not about not using PEDs

 

[python]

...just learned the news.personally, i had no doubt that he doped throughout his career. i will accept that could have switched to a less aggressive program in the last few years, nonetheless, exogenous testo imo was always in it.

..everyone who had been following him would know that he had no extended endurance that the testo fixes...

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

Former team mate, David 'anti-doping' Millar's 3 days of silence is deafening.

People criticise me for say the WT is 100% dirty, these so called clean teams and advocates have disappeared suddenly when now is the time to be heard!

I think you get criticized for saying 100% dirty because even in the 90's it wasn't 100%.

I don't think anyone at the sharp end is clean, but everyone in the whole peloton? Extremely, extremely unlikely.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Former team mate, David 'anti-doping' Millar's 3 days of silence is deafening.

People criticise me for say the WT is 100% dirty, these so called clean teams and advocates have disappeared suddenly when now is the time to be heard!

I think you get criticized for saying 100% dirty because even in the 90's it wasn't 100%.

I don't think anyone at the sharp end is clean, but everyone in the whole peloton? Extremely, extremely unlikely.

I cannot see the point in having a clean rider, when there are plenty will to dope. It much more results driven now than the 90s.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Former team mate, David 'anti-doping' Millar's 3 days of silence is deafening.

People criticise me for say the WT is 100% dirty, these so called clean teams and advocates have disappeared suddenly when now is the time to be heard!

I think you get criticized for saying 100% dirty because even in the 90's it wasn't 100%.

I don't think anyone at the sharp end is clean, but everyone in the whole peloton? Extremely, extremely unlikely.

I cannot see the point in having a clean rider, when there are plenty will to dope. It much more results driven now than the 90s.

Not that it has anything to do with the extreme unlikelihood that 100% of the peloton are doped (absurd, really) but how exactly do you determine that the sport is more results-oriented now than in the 90's?

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Former team mate, David 'anti-doping' Millar's 3 days of silence is deafening.

People criticise me for say the WT is 100% dirty, these so called clean teams and advocates have disappeared suddenly when now is the time to be heard!

I think you get criticized for saying 100% dirty because even in the 90's it wasn't 100%.

I don't think anyone at the sharp end is clean, but everyone in the whole peloton? Extremely, extremely unlikely.

I cannot see the point in having a clean rider, when there are plenty will to dope. It much more results driven now than the 90s.

Not that it has anything to do with the extreme unlikelihood that 100% of the peloton are doped (absurd, really) but how exactly do you determine that the sport is more results-oriented now than in the 90's?

The WT points system.

 

[nayr497]

Re:

Former team mate, David 'anti-doping' Millar's 3 days of silence is deafening.

People criticise me for say the WT is 100% dirty, these so called clean teams and advocates have disappeared suddenly when now is the time to be heard!

He's busy modeling the new Castelli kit he worked on them with and showing off his dopey hairdo. That guy pisses me off.

 

[wendybnt]

Yes, but he is beautiful.....and that is rare in the peloton

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Former team mate, David 'anti-doping' Millar's 3 days of silence is deafening.

People criticise me for say the WT is 100% dirty, these so called clean teams and advocates have disappeared suddenly when now is the time to be heard!

I think you get criticized for saying 100% dirty because even in the 90's it wasn't 100%.

I don't think anyone at the sharp end is clean, but everyone in the whole peloton? Extremely, extremely unlikely.

I cannot see the point in having a clean rider, when there are plenty will to dope. It much more results driven now than the 90s.

Not that it has anything to do with the extreme unlikelihood that 100% of the peloton are doped (absurd, really) but how exactly do you determine that the sport is more results-oriented now than in the 90's?

The WT points system.

OK, fair point.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Former team mate, David 'anti-doping' Millar's 3 days of silence is deafening.

People criticise me for say the WT is 100% dirty, these so called clean teams and advocates have disappeared suddenly when now is the time to be heard!

I think you get criticized for saying 100% dirty because even in the 90's it wasn't 100%.

I don't think anyone at the sharp end is clean, but everyone in the whole peloton? Extremely, extremely unlikely.

I cannot see the point in having a clean rider, when there are plenty will to dope. It much more results driven now than the 90s.

Not that it has anything to do with the extreme unlikelihood that 100% of the peloton are doped (absurd, really) but how exactly do you determine that the sport is more results-oriented now than in the 90's?

I cant think why anyone would continue to race against dopers. I would leave the sport rather than race cheats who have the system on their side.

I can think why teams would hire guys who would not dope as that throws up the risk that they tell on those who are doping.

I can think why teams would hire guys who would not dope as non cycling sponsors are hard to come by in the current climate and there are not enough big name cycling sponsors to fund the pro sport at current levels. Sponsors, i hazard to guess, don't give a fig how the win is achieved as long as their name is attracting the attention they paid. Business is amoral. Vroomen had no problem backing a former doper like Bjarne Riis or Vaughters. Bottom line he had a product to sell.

It is not as if dopers are not held up as heroes, Merckx, Coppi, Anquetil, Hinault, Fignon, Simpson and Pantani. It would appear every team is full of people who have done well due to doping (from lowly drivers to DS), so where does the rider who refuses to 'play the game' fit in such teams? I dont see it. A rider would be abused, derided, sneered at and ostracised for not doping. They would not last long. I dont see the current peloton as anti doping, if anything they are anti idiots like Ricco and Di Luca, but not anti doping. Apart from Pate, i have not seen tweets from current riders saying 'good riddance Danielson'. Vaughters talked of the 2008 'new generation' not seeing doping as the 'cool' thing to do. Well that was 7 years ago and those 'new' generation are now the experience patrons of the peloton. Their silence is deafening. Where is Cav's abuse of Danielson that he so willingly dished out at Ricco. Kittel has he said anything?

So i think, maybe a clean guy gets a shot but after a few months it will be obvious he is not 'playing the game' the same as the rest, so he eithers gets with a program or he goes backwards quickly or he leaves.

I, on one hand, would like to think that there are clean riders in the peloton, but, on the other hand, I would hope such talent would see the cesspit for what it is and have the dignity to say not for me this doping, i'll rejoin the real world.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Former team mate, David 'anti-doping' Millar's 3 days of silence is deafening.

People criticise me for say the WT is 100% dirty, these so called clean teams and advocates have disappeared suddenly when now is the time to be heard!

I think you get criticized for saying 100% dirty because even in the 90's it wasn't 100%.

I don't think anyone at the sharp end is clean, but everyone in the whole peloton? Extremely, extremely unlikely.

I cannot see the point in having a clean rider, when there are plenty will to dope. It much more results driven now than the 90s.

Not that it has anything to do with the extreme unlikelihood that 100% of the peloton are doped (absurd, really) but how exactly do you determine that the sport is more results-oriented now than in the 90's?

I cant think why anyone would continue to race against dopers. I would leave the sport rather than race cheats who have the system on their side.

I can think why teams would hire guys who would not dope as that throws up the risk that they tell on those who are doping.

I can think why teams would hire guys who would not dope as non cycling sponsors are hard to come by in the current climate and there are not enough big name cycling sponsors to fund the pro sport at current levels. Sponsors, i hazard to guess, don't give a fig how the win is achieved as long as their name is attracting the attention they paid. Business is amoral. Vroomen had no problem backing a former doper like Bjarne Riis or Vaughters. Bottom line he had a product to sell.

It is not as if dopers are not held up as heroes, Merckx, Coppi, Anquetil, Hinault, Fignon, Simpson and Pantani. It would appear every team is full of people who have done well due to doping (from lowly drivers to DS), so where does the rider who refuses to 'play the game' fit in such teams? I dont see it. A rider would be abused, derided, sneered at and ostracised for not doping. They would not last long. I dont see the current peloton as anti doping, if anything they are anti idiots like Ricco and Di Luca, but not anti doping. Apart from Pate, i have not seen tweets from current riders saying 'good riddance Danielson'. Vaughters talked of the 2008 'new generation' not seeing doping as the 'cool' thing to do. Well that was 7 years ago and those 'new' generation are now the experience patrons of the peloton. Their silence is deafening. Where is Cav's abuse of Danielson that he so willingly dished out at Ricco. Kittel has he said anything?

So i think, maybe a clean guy gets a shot but after a few months it will be obvious he is not 'playing the game' the same as the rest, so he eithers gets with a program or he goes backwards quickly or he leaves.

I, on one hand, would like to think that there are clean riders in the peloton, but, on the other hand, I would hope such talent would see the cesspit for what it is and have the dignity to say not for me this doping, i'll rejoin the real world.

Maybe they do it for a pro contract, because they love cycling, and lack better employment options. It seems clear that riding in the pack or as a (non-absurd) domestique is well within reason, physiologically. Why wouldn't you do it? If I were good enough to go pro clean, I certainly would have.

Anyway, as you point out in your post, some guys clearly do go in clean, which makes your 100% statement non-applicable. That's all I'm trying to say, it just reduces the credibility of anything else you say which is credible. It's an outrageous position that does you no favors due to it being obviously untrue.