Tom Danielson

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

They are rare, and expensive, simple as that. Why do you think not every urine sample is tested this way? Because it is as easy as the normal ratio test?

Uh uh.

they are over a grand aren't they? over 1thousand USD Might be more, might be closer to a couple of thousand. They dont have the money to roll this test out.

They should roll out the portajohn test and then it will all work out. Any cyclist who is pedaling more than the cycle is probably on the sauce. Pedaling the cafe beans. Tommy D's ultimate Kahona Cafe.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

The Lance MO is to bet for yourself winning something repeatedly. A third win in a row is worth more than the first. Did he have much to gain? Potentially yes.

He's carved out a pretty comfortable niche as the American stage race specialist. Given the ridiculous amount of attention the US cycling press gives CA, UT, and CO, he could have got another 2-3 years at pretty good $$.

Yes it would make sense for him, just remember all the talk about Jens going full retarn to win the Deutschlandrundfahrt.
I wonder if anyone has ever bought contaminated supplements on purpose, just to have an excuse if you get popped on synthetic testosterone.
Ask a friend to order some shady chinese supplements on the internet, ask another one to send some of it to a WADA-accredited lab to be sure that they are contaminated with the "right" substance and keep the rest of it as a backup plan/excuse if you get busted for synthetic testosterone.

That actually happened. BodyBuilding.com had anabolic steroids in several of its sups. Lots of muscle heads found out and bought it like crazy. BB.com made big $$ but then a power lifter got busted, and sold out BB.com to reduce his consequence. I think BB paid $5 mil. for it.

 

[WildspokeJoe]

Re: Re:

Ah really? How about Levi? Doesn't he have a Gran Fondo now?

Levi has a fondo
Dave Z has some nutz cream
Hincapie has a clothing company
Chris Carmichael has a coaching company
Pretty much everyone has a book out

What rider hasn't parlayed their doping successes into other forms of income? CVV maybe.

He was doing commentary for TdF, I think for NBC?

Considering how bad CVV is at commentary, the sport is still suffering.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

It is very frustrating how often contaminated supplements are accepted as an excuse. I almost feel as though an athlete can get busted, then rub some of his dope onto the supplements he sends in to be tested for contamination. Tommy D could do that: roll a few multi-vitamins around on his testosterone patch and then send it in.

And while contamination can happen, it shouldn't. Athletes have only a few responsibilities, and checking on the source of their supplements should be the same as an apparel retailer making sure their clothes don't come from child labor, or a restaurant knowing their source farms aren't next to landfills or something. It is part of the job. (Personally, I don't have a lot of faith in dietary supplements anyway. The science is mixed for most, and if an athlete is worried about getting some nutrient, they should work to make it part of their actual diet of food, not a tablet. /tangent)

 

[Dear Wiggo]

http://slipstreamsports.com/sponsors/

Informed-Choice is a quality assurance program for sports nutrition products, suppliers to the sports nutrition industry, and supplement manufacturing facilities.

 

[joe_papp]

Re: Re:

They are rare, and expensive, simple as that. Why do you think not every urine sample is tested this way? Because it is as easy as the normal ratio test?

Uh uh.

they are over a grand aren't they? over 1thousand USD Might be more, might be closer to a couple of thousand. They dont have the money to roll this test out.

In 2013 the test was around $400 per sample. So, USD $800 to test A and B samples.

Right. $400-450 or so.

Basically, IRMS is twice as expensive as T/E ratio test. But it also takes approx. 3 days longer to run the complete analysis.

So that's another reason why not every sample is subjected to IRMS - insufficient lab capacity. Requiring the isotope ratio test on every sample would likely result in a net decrease in number of samples that various testing program clients could have run overall.

But to quote my friend who is in the anti-doping business: "All depends what the client wants. IRMS on every sample if they want/can afford it... All comes down to budget"

 

[Merckx index]

Re:

http://slipstreamsports.com/sponsors/

Informed-Choice is a quality assurance program for sports nutrition products, suppliers to the sports nutrition industry, and supplement manufacturing facilities.

Interesting. From the website:

The INFORMED-CHOICE program uses LGC (formerly HFL Sport Science) to carry out its supplement analysis. LGC has been testing supplements/ingredients for banned substances since 2002 and tests over 5,000 samples each year. The standard supplement screening test covers 146 substances that are prohibited in sport. Additional substances can also be tested for on request.

I think HFL Sport Science was the same lab used by NZVT, I know I've seen papers published by them, and elsewhere Informed Choice's discussion of specifications indicates they use about the same detection standards.

GCMS analysis revealed low levels of steroids in 21 of the 120 samples tested (17.5%). The most common steroids identified were: androstadienedione (13 samples showed evidence for this); androstenedione (12 samples showed evidence for this); DHEA (9 samples showed evidence for this); androstenediol (7 samples showed evidence for this) and testosterone (4 samples showed evidence for this). No samples showed evidence for nandrolone or nandrolone precursors.

If TD wants to go the contaminated supplement route, I assume he has to concede that he used supplements approved by Informed Choice. Even if he were able to show that a batch of the supplement he used was contaminated with testosterone, that wouldn’t help his case if one of his team’s sponsors was a testing service and he didn’t make use of it.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

A story about Tom Zirbel's positive and his belief that it was supplement contamination: https://joezauner.wordpress.com/tag/zirbel/

Interesting, he never had his b-sample tested directly for DHEA even after being informed that such a test exists.

Also interesting is the false reporting that an arbitration panel found that Scott Moninger's supplements were contaminated when the panel finding says it did not find his claim credible.

 

[Weapons of @ss Destruction]

Obvious machine calibration error is obvious.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

Didn't Scott Moninger make a pretty convincing case that he had some contaminated supplements? He still sat out but had some independent testing show his supplements had a contamination in them. now whether or not that happens with testosterone is a good question...

Scott's positive was 13 years ago (2002). You'd sorta hope that we wouldn't still be talking about guys "accidentally" ingesting something in an other-the-counter supplement in 2015.

Exactly. With as many warnings as have been issued by WADA and others about supplements (tainted or otherwise) pro athletes are going to be extremely diligent about what they ingest. The fact that TD tweeted about investigating his supplements, rather than just saying "the findings are simply wrong" makes me think there's about a zero chance innocence.

2015, you can buy supplements that are certified WADA compliant.
http://www.bscg.org/supplement-information/

They aren't the only ones offering this service

Per Moose below, a supplement excuse is ridiculous when WADA's T:E threshold is 4:1.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I can't believe people are actually debating supplement contamination.

As though his BS excuse wasn't enough to laugh at him. "Oh, no way I would do it after what I've been through"
Been through what? The guy cheated and got away with it for a long time and finally JV leaked his testimony and subsequent 6 month ban.

 

[Irondan]

Re:

I can't believe people are actually debating supplement contamination.

As though his BS excuse wasn't enough to laugh at him. "Oh, no way I would do it after what I've been through"
Been through what? The guy cheated and got away with it for a long time and finally JV leaked his testimony and subsequent 6 month ban.

I don't think anyone's debating his guilt or innocence here, I think the consensus is that he's guilty. The debate is just how a likely scenario might look if he goes that route. It's highly plausible that he takes the 'tainted supplement' defense.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

I can't believe people are actually debating supplement contamination.

As though his BS excuse wasn't enough to laugh at him. "Oh, no way I would do it after what I've been through"
Been through what? The guy cheated and got away with it for a long time and finally JV leaked his testimony and subsequent 6 month ban.

I don't think anyone's debating his guilt or innocence here, I think the consensus is that he's guilty. The debate is just how a likely scenario might look if he goes that route. It's highly plausible that he takes the 'tainted supplement' defense.

The general deal is the federation wants the case to stick and "encourage" the athlete to see things their way.

The federation has decided he's done. "Why now?" is always the interesting question.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

I can't believe people are actually debating supplement contamination.

As though his BS excuse wasn't enough to laugh at him. "Oh, no way I would do it after what I've been through"
Been through what? The guy cheated and got away with it for a long time and finally JV leaked his testimony and subsequent 6 month ban.

I don't think anyone's debating his guilt or innocence here, I think the consensus is that he's guilty. The debate is just how a likely scenario might look if he goes that route. It's highly plausible that he takes the 'tainted supplement' defense.

Yes. Except the company that does the supplement testing for cleanliness is a sponsor of his team.

Here's a marketing image from their twitter stream

How is he going to swing the whole "I ignored my team sponsor and just took stuff anyway" message?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Here's the other image from their twitter feed that makes it fairly obvious what you are meant to do:

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: Re:

But to quote my friend who is in the anti-doping business: "All depends what the client wants. IRMS on every sample if they want/can afford it... All comes down to budget"

Bang on the money.

Cyclingnews adds taking the piss too:

 

[D-Queued]

Re:

Obvious machine calibration error is obvious.

Obviously!

DanielsonDidDope.org

Dave.

 

[durianrider]

1. Easy to just lace a supp with some gear and then send that into WADA for testing and say 'hey, this is what I took!'. Bit hard for TD to do that though considering his sponsor is the 'clean supp company'.

2. Why did he use T when he could have used T under the TUE loophole? Why would a pro cyclist use T with no TUE? Thats asking for trouble.
In crossfit you can use T from your doc and if you get busted, you can just retro date the TUE no probs and they are happy with that.

 

[wendybnt]

Hardly worth discussing it it? Danielson is total history. Lifetime ban awaiteth.

Um....Vaughters seems unusually quiet......

 

[Lyon]

Re:

Hardly worth discussing it it? Danielson is total history. Lifetime ban awaiteth.

Um....Vaughters seems unusually quiet......

Vaughters is pondering over how to distance himself from Danielson while still making it look like he doesn't.

 

[wendybnt]

Yes, somewhat of a dilemma for him

 

[reubenr]

No mystery here. Is there any possible excuse other than "supplements?" What's he going to say, "After everything I went through, I still decided to cheat, anyway. I'm a fool, but I was desperate to win again." As for the "Supplement Defense," when you are talking about a professional cyclist, a professional anything, that would be a complete joke. The better defense would be that someone laced his espresso, which wouldn't fly either, but it would appear less dumb.

 

[Bolder]

Re: Re:

What everyone else said. The "contaminated supplement" defense is so 2002...

I can't really speak to what might have been going through his head, but if I were among his generation of US cyclists who'd been outed as part of a systematic doping effort, I'd be so clean you could eat off me. That would include either riding supplement free or methodically saving part of every can of whatever I'm taking and labeling it. Hey, it's only your reputation and future earnings on the line.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re:

Hardly worth discussing it it? Danielson is total history. Lifetime ban awaiteth.

Is it not 8 years (which is effectively life although not technically life)?

 

[lovealiens]

Re: Re:

Hardly worth discussing it it? Danielson is total history. Lifetime ban awaiteth.

Is it not 8 years (which is effectively life although not technically life)?

It is very interesting "who" did the testing politically. USADA doesn't have a conflict of interest in the testing. However, he has raced in Europe without a positive. However, just like Lance who tested positive and was covered up. I am sure most of those tests in Europe are covered up.