Tom Danielson

[mrhender]

I think the link between real life behaviour and doping is a thing that would/could merit some focus.

Does being a douche (cheating, or other stuff) make you prone to doping?

Or does a special mixture of doping, selected ped's (and perhaps the whole theatrical lifestyle of cyclists) make you more prone to being a douche in private.

For me if I reverse it and ask myself if dopng is blurring the integrity of a man/woman then my first answer would be no, because I do not think doping in sports is anything else than following the norm (secrret conformity) And as such I don't think the doper sees the error of his ways.
Therefore, if it ain't perceived as cheating/wrongdoing then howcome the spillover to private matters?

Benotti does make a point about Ped's perhaps interferring with Libido but perhaps that is also much a psychological "power" issue exemplified by Tiger Woods.

But I'am really just specualting here, and perhaps posting off topic so perhaps we need another thread for this.
At least I have plenty of wonderings/questions in this regard.

Also I've read some studies about doping behaviour and incentives but none really on the link between the doping and real life behaviour.

Do you know of any studies regarding this?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re:

Do you know of any studies regarding this?

I remember reading something from a twitter link. Something about testosterone and propensity to lie or cheat (had to do with females, I think). I'll try to find it, but it may be too long ago.

Maybe it's also worth discussing leader/follower effect in cheating. I'm sure it has a real name, but the idea of the mental/moral threshold of being the first to cheat, vs. seeing someone or a lot of others do it first, and then normalizing it.

I feel like there is a connection between doucheyness and dopiness, but wouldn't know where to start to find out.

 

[mrhender]

Perhaps the cyclists and their private issues are just a refelction of general soceity.

Of course we can't expect them to have a higher average sense of ethics and morale than the general public.

But that of course doesn't mean there can't be a multifacteted effect/influence from both sides (doping/private behaviour) on eachother.

Also you make a good point point about authority MSTR.
But you are right in "asking" where one begins in analyzing all of this.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Here's that study I was talking about:

Globally, fraud has been rising sharply over the last decade, with current estimates placing financial losses at greater than $3.7 trillion annually. Unfortunately, fraud prevention has been stymied by lack of a clear and comprehensive understanding of its underlying causes and mechanisms. In this paper, we focus on an important but neglected topic-the biological antecedents and consequences of unethical conduct-using salivary collection of hormones (testosterone and cortisol). We hypothesized that preperformance cortisol levels would interact with preperformance levels of testosterone to regulate cheating behavior in 2 studies. Further, based on the previously untested cheating-as-stress-reduction hypothesis, we predicted a dose-response relationship between cheating and reductions in cortisol and negative affect. Taken together, this research marks the first foray into the possibility that endocrine-system activity plays an important role in the regulation of unethical behavior. (PsycINFO Database Record

(c) 2015 APA, all rights reserved).

Full text is behind a paywall: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/xge/144/5/891/, but the tweet I mentioned summarized:

steve magness ‏@stevemagness Jul 28

.@veloclinic those who cheated more on a test had higher T and C levels before and lower of both afterwards.

(T: Testosterone, C: Cortisol)

more from the twitter conversation:

@stevemagness @veloclinic reminds me of a part of this ted talk http://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shapes_who_you_are?language=en … increased T equaled greater confidence, risk taking

The cheating-as-stress-reduction idea caught my eye. A way of framing the "decision" (to borrow from another thread) that I hadn't thought of before.

The fact that the abstact says that this is the first look at the relationship between hormones and unethical behavior means that we won't get a satisfying answer for a while.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

In my opinion this has little to do with the doping issue, (clinic thread wise) unless argued that this sort of behaviour makes the individual prone to taking ped's more than the "non-cheaters".

Some PEDs increase the libido.

I guess Tiger Woods big time extra marital affairs were due to the side effects of his doping.

Same could have happened to TD.

Could you please be more specific. A "friend" wants to know more...

An increasing number of men are trying testosterone therapy to help treat erectile dysfunction, loss of sex drive and fatigue.......

http://www.drugwatch.com/testosterone/

 

[Merckx index]

Sorry, I find this PEDs-ethical behavior link weak. Lots of "nice guys" dope, and there are some real jerks who don't. The more important link is fame and money, that's certainly the overwhelming factor in Woods' case, and probably in the vast majority of other celebrities, athletes and otherwise, as well.

You know how it goes, motive and opportunity. All men have a motive, by definition. Give them opportunity, and a great many will take it.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re:

Sorry, I find this PEDs-ethical behavior link weak. Lots of "nice guys" dope, and there are some real jerks who don't. The more important link is fame and money, that's certainly the overwhelming factor in Woods' case, and probably in the vast majority of other celebrities, athletes and otherwise, as well.

You know how it goes, motive and opportunity. All men have a motive, by definition. Give them opportunity, and a great many will take it.

Sure. It's complicated. I don't think anyone said nice guys don't dope. Just like there are dopers who don't want fame and money. It's complicated, but worth figuring out.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

You reckon he's gonna walk from this?

I find the topic interesting. Lots of interesting first/second hand and alleged stories. Many want to lambaste TD and get readers feeling the same...thats fine.However If making personal comments about his ability to bed younger,legal aged consenting woman is meant to compound the disdain i have to tell you its having the opposite effect on me personally. I am even starting to like him a bit. JV is trying to race a clean team(putting aside the endless conspiracies), maybe another rider he is not an adjoined twin with,will test positive?? Possible No?Could anyone on this thread run a cycling team and guarantee never a positive? "oh but he said he would resign...blah blay"
Well i say he talks allot and it gives we addicts something to read. Thanks JV for not being a bore and making some entertaining comments.

R-U-J-V
R-U-J-V

AAAAAR-UUU-JV in disguise!!!!!!!!!

Are you JV in disguise????

Seriously, what a pathetic defense of imorality your post is. We got -
1 Cheating on your wife is cool because it makes you look like a player to get with girls, high five.
2 "(Insert immoral act) bla bla bla" which is a stonehead way of saying that people who complain about someone behaving unacceptably are worse than the people who behave that way.
3 People on here would probably behave the same way in that situation ( no proof of that, but whatever)
And then the piece de resistance
4 - its ok to lie so long as you are not "boring"

Of course you can extend nonesense like this to absolutely moral failing.

Example. "Was jack the ripper a bad person".
No because.

1 He got close to hot young women - PLAYA !!!!
2 God, do people crow on about him. Bla bla bla. Losers. What a hero to still be relevant a century after he died.
3 I doubt anyone on this thread could survive in the 19th century without resisting the urge to be a serial killer.
4 He made the news interesting. Probably sucked living in the 19th century. Gave them something to think about unlike those boring politicians- snore.

Your whole post is jut one big sleight of hand attempt, though you wont fool anyone here. Maybe on twitter where this clown tries to portray himself as someone who "dedicated his life to anti doping".

You say he is "trying to run a clean team", and its not his fault if they test positive? Well if he's merely trying why does he keep guaranteeing the cleanliness of his riders? He can't know if he's merely trying it. So he's lying when he vouches for them.

You say its no big deal that JV went back on his promise.
Well, in the adult world, a man who can't keep his word is as low as it gets. Its like a guy who borrows money from his mates and then disapears when its time to pay it back.

I honestly have more respect for guys like Riis who just straight up dope their teams, over guys like JV who even if he doesn't dope them, make promises he has no intention of keeping.

But I can kind of get your point. So what he made a mistake, give him a break.

But, it wasn't the only time he's done that was it?

Lets not shine *** and call it gold. First of all he's a former doper (already massive red flag) who denied he doped, defended Lance and all the other facilitators. Who, even worse is totally reluctant to accept his own past transgressions. He continues to try to sell the delusion that he was a victim of doping, that he would have been even better if it never existed, that he's "dedicated his life" to fighting it. A man who can't take responsibility for his actions. Pathetic.

There are plenty more examples of JV being liberal with facts, promises, or just straight up lying to try and bring in sponsors.

He's just a conman.

But even if we go down to your level, abandon all morality, or just for the sake of it pretend that JV is just thick and actually believes all the nonesence he says (which obviously isn't true) and just judge JV on whether he is "boring" or not.

Well he's not that exciting is he? Because all he knows are a handful of tricks - say cycling is clean, claim you are anti doping, vouch for your own riders.
And he uses them over and over again.

Who would you rather spend a day with. Ricco or JV? Lance or JV? Oleg or JV? Ferrari or JV? Contador or JV? Victor Conte or JV? Bjarne or JV? Vino or JV? Manolo Saiz or JV? Brunyeel or JV? An empty room or JV?

Did anyone answer any of those "JV"?

Even on that he fails. Like he kind of always has with everything (as a rider, as a doper, as a ds, as a promoter of clean cycling).

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Thanks Hitch. I was thinking the same thing but my WTF meter blew a foofa valve and it's not back from the shop yet. No more need be said other than -- there's a logical fallacy in the reasoning of Red link's post that I do not know yet, and it's dripping with it.

Wait I would change one thing. TD is not a former doper. He is an ongoing doper. Never stopped.

 

[thehog]

Empty room over JV, much more entertaining.

 

[chuckmicD]

Re: Re:

In my opinion this has little to do with the doping issue, (clinic thread wise) unless argued that this sort of behaviour makes the individual prone to taking ped's more than the "non-cheaters".

Some PEDs increase the libido.

I guess Tiger Woods big time extra marital affairs were due to the side effects of his doping.

Same could have happened to TD.

Could you please be more specific. A "friend" wants to know more...

An increasing number of men are trying testosterone therapy to help treat erectile dysfunction, loss of sex drive and fatigue.......

http://www.drugwatch.com/testosterone/

Viagra. Not on the banned list but sure as hell provides lots of, umm, performance enhancement both on and off the bike.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Re: Re:

In my opinion this has little to do with the doping issue, (clinic thread wise) unless argued that this sort of behaviour makes the individual prone to taking ped's more than the "non-cheaters".

Some PEDs increase the libido.

I guess Tiger Woods big time extra marital affairs were due to the side effects of his doping.

Same could have happened to TD.

Could you please be more specific. A "friend" wants to know more...

An increasing number of men are trying testosterone therapy to help treat erectile dysfunction, loss of sex drive and fatigue.......

http://www.drugwatch.com/testosterone/

Viagra. Not on the banned list but sure as hell provides lots of, umm, performance enhancement both on and off the bike.

A "friend" says it makes him sleepy.

 

[red ink]

Re: Re:

You reckon he's gonna walk from this?

I find the topic interesting. Lots of interesting first/second hand and alleged stories. Many want to lambaste TD and get readers feeling the same...thats fine.However If making personal comments about his ability to bed younger,legal aged consenting woman is meant to compound the disdain i have to tell you its having the opposite effect on me personally. I am even starting to like him a bit. JV is trying to race a clean team(putting aside the endless conspiracies), maybe another rider he is not an adjoined twin with,will test positive?? Possible No?Could anyone on this thread run a cycling team and guarantee never a positive? "oh but he said he would resign...blah blay"
Well i say he talks allot and it gives we addicts something to read. Thanks JV for not being a bore and making some entertaining comments.

R-U-J-V
R-U-J-V

AAAAAR-UUU-JV in disguise!!!!!!!!!

Are you JV in disguise????

Seriously, what a pathetic defense of imorality your post is. We got -
1 Cheating on your wife is cool because it makes you look like a player to get with girls, high five.
2 "(Insert immoral act) bla bla bla" which is a stonehead way of saying that people who complain about someone behaving unacceptably are worse than the people who behave that way.
3 People on here would probably behave the same way in that situation ( no proof of that, but whatever)
And then the piece de resistance
4 - its ok to lie so long as you are not "boring"

Of course you can extend nonesense like this to absolutely moral failing.

Example. "Was jack the ripper a bad person".
No because.

1 He got close to hot young women - PLAYA !!!!
2 God, do people crow on about him. Bla bla bla. Losers. What a hero to still be relevant a century after he died.
3 I doubt anyone on this thread could survive in the 19th century without resisting the urge to be a serial killer.
4 He made the news interesting. Probably sucked living in the 19th century. Gave them something to think about unlike those boring politicians- snore.

Your whole post is jut one big sleight of hand attempt, though you wont fool anyone here. Maybe on twitter where this clown tries to portray himself as someone who "dedicated his life to anti doping".

You say he is "trying to run a clean team", and its not his fault if they test positive? Well if he's merely trying why does he keep guaranteeing the cleanliness of his riders? He can't know if he's merely trying it. So he's lying when he vouches for them.

You say its no big deal that JV went back on his promise.
Well, in the adult world, a man who can't keep his word is as low as it gets. Its like a guy who borrows money from his mates and then disapears when its time to pay it back.

I honestly have more respect for guys like Riis who just straight up dope their teams, over guys like JV who even if he doesn't dope them, make promises he has no intention of keeping.

But I can kind of get your point. So what he made a mistake, give him a break.

But, it wasn't the only time he's done that was it?

Lets not shine **** and call it gold. First of all he's a former doper (already massive red flag) who denied he doped, defended Lance and all the other facilitators. Who, even worse is totally reluctant to accept his own past transgressions. He continues to try to sell the delusion that he was a victim of doping, that he would have been even better if it never existed, that he's "dedicated his life" to fighting it. A man who can't take responsibility for his actions. Pathetic.

There are plenty more examples of JV being liberal with facts, promises, or just straight up lying to try and bring in sponsors.

He's just a conman.

But even if we go down to your level, abandon all morality, or just for the sake of it pretend that JV is just thick and actually believes all the nonesence he says (which obviously isn't true) and just judge JV on whether he is "boring" or not.

Well he's not that exciting is he? Because all he knows are a handful of tricks - say cycling is clean, claim you are anti doping, vouch for your own riders.
And he uses them over and over again.

Who would you rather spend a day with. Ricco or JV? Lance or JV? Oleg or JV? Ferrari or JV? Contador or JV? Victor Conte or JV? Bjarne or JV? Vino or JV? Manolo Saiz or JV? Brunyeel or JV? An empty room or JV?

Did anyone answer any of those "JV"?

Even on that he fails. Like he kind of always has with everything (as a rider, as a doper, as a ds, as a promoter of clean cycling).

since you assumed plenty of bad traits in me personally and have done some kind of profile based on an opinion/comment as apposed to simply disagreeing with my view... (my 3rd post to your 27,000 posts)as well as outed me as JV...well i am outing you as Jesus of Nazareth. I hope one day to be as sure about one thing in life as you are about everything. I am 52 year old Married dad,however please continue to create your own profile of me what i know,what i am etc.

 

[MacRoadie]

Re:

Sorry, I find this PEDs-ethical behavior link weak. Lots of "nice guys" dope, and there are some real jerks who don't. The more important link is fame and money, that's certainly the overwhelming factor in Woods' case, and probably in the vast majority of other celebrities, athletes and otherwise, as well.

You know how it goes, motive and opportunity. All men have a motive, by definition. Give them opportunity, and a great many will take it.

I'm not so quick to dismiss the potential for a correlation.

There are more studies available than you could ever read, discussing addictive personalities and the ability to move from one addiction to another. Addicts in "recovery" often transfer addictive needs into other forms of addiction: gambling, food, pornography, exercise, work, etc.

Addiction and addictive traits are closely related to other personality disorders and are addressed in the DSM. Narcissism, sociopathy, and antisocial personality disorder are all also considered to be personality disorders in the same vein, so I wouldn't be so quick to disregard any potential correlation between blurred ethics/morals in interpersonal relationships and blurred ethics/morals as they relate to athletic competition. Just as transference can occur in addictive personalities, there's an argument to be made for transference in other personality disorders.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re: Re:

However If making personal comments about his ability to bed younger,legal aged consenting woman is meant to compound the disdain i have to tell you its having the opposite effect on me personally. I am even starting to like him a bit. JV is trying to race a clean team(putting aside the endless conspiracies), maybe another rider he is not an adjoined twin with,will test positive?? Possible No?Could anyone on this thread run a cycling team and guarantee never a positive?

The big issue that a lot of people here are in-delicately insinuating is that JV asked for a lot of trust. He asks sponsors and to fans trust that he is running a clean team. He claims that he trusts his riders.

Now who in the world would trust TD? His wife(wives) can't. His competitors don't. His teammates don't. NOBODY TRUSTS TD...about anything!!!! Except JV.

JV put his reputation on the line for TD and it completely and totally blew up in his face. Just like everyone said it would.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

However If making personal comments about his ability to bed younger,legal aged consenting woman is meant to compound the disdain i have to tell you its having the opposite effect on me personally. I am even starting to like him a bit. JV is trying to race a clean team(putting aside the endless conspiracies), maybe another rider he is not an adjoined twin with,will test positive?? Possible No?Could anyone on this thread run a cycling team and guarantee never a positive?

The big issue that a lot of people here are in-delicately insinuating is that JV asked for a lot of trust. He asks sponsors and to fans trust that he is running a clean team. He claims that he trusts his riders.

Now who in the world would trust TD? His wife(wives) can't. His competitors don't. His teammates don't. NOBODY TRUSTS TD...about anything!!!! Except JV.

JV put his reputation on the line for TD and it completely and totally blew up in his face. Just like everyone said it would.

Sorry, correction, JV sold slipstream on being clean, because he had an internal testings system costing half a million a year to make sure his riders were clean. JV lied. JV has lied a lot.

JV has no reputation. No one in cycling has a reputation. JV like Armstrong has shown nothing but complete disdain for fans.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

However If making personal comments about his ability to bed younger,legal aged consenting woman is meant to compound the disdain i have to tell you its having the opposite effect on me personally. I am even starting to like him a bit. JV is trying to race a clean team(putting aside the endless conspiracies), maybe another rider he is not an adjoined twin with,will test positive?? Possible No?Could anyone on this thread run a cycling team and guarantee never a positive?

The big issue that a lot of people here are in-delicately insinuating is that JV asked for a lot of trust. He asks sponsors and to fans trust that he is running a clean team. He claims that he trusts his riders.

Now who in the world would trust TD? His wife(wives) can't. His competitors don't. His teammates don't. NOBODY TRUSTS TD...about anything!!!! Except JV.

JV put his reputation on the line for TD and it completely and totally blew up in his face. Just like everyone said it would.

Sorry, correction, JV sold slipstream on being clean, because he had an internal testings system costing half a million a year to make sure his riders were clean. JV lied. JV has lied a lot.

JV has no reputation. No one in cycling has a reputation. JV like Armstrong has shown nothing but complete disdain for fans.

One only needs to wander into Velorooms forums to see JV has a lot of fans. A lot of people drink the JV koolaid thick and fast. He really is king of the kids. I think he is hilarious. He's made a truck load of money selling anti-doping as a commodity. I don't think he really cares what people thinks, he just keeps up the charade and selling more garmin shirts to his own profit. I don't think he is dumb as people make out. He just doesn't have a lot of ethics. Whether that matter or not is another question.

 

[yespatterns]

Jesus, just roll into his American home base, go on a few rides with the locals and see what they say. The dude is disliked through and true, and for good reason. As much as I dislike him, it is actually interesting too get the low down before he gets lanced.

 

[frenchfry]

Re:

Jesus, just roll into his American home base, go on a few rides with the locals and see what they say. The dude is disliked through and true, and for good reason. As much as I dislike him, it is actually interesting too get the low down before he gets lanced.

Just so I don't get started hating the wrong dude, are you talking about Danielson (after all it is his thread) or JV (who has become the dominant subject of the discussion).

 

[yespatterns]

Re: Re:

Jesus, just roll into his American home base, go on a few rides with the locals and see what they say. The dude is disliked through and true, and for good reason. As much as I dislike him, it is actually interesting too get the low down before he gets lanced.

Just so I don't get started hating the wrong dude, are you talking about Danielson (after all it is his thread) or JV (who has become the dominant subject of the discussion).

Sorry, I was referring to TD. JV, I haven't heard about too much second degree.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

However If making personal comments about his ability to bed younger,legal aged consenting woman is meant to compound the disdain i have to tell you its having the opposite effect on me personally. I am even starting to like him a bit. JV is trying to race a clean team(putting aside the endless conspiracies), maybe another rider he is not an adjoined twin with,will test positive?? Possible No?Could anyone on this thread run a cycling team and guarantee never a positive?

The big issue that a lot of people here are in-delicately insinuating is that JV asked for a lot of trust. He asks sponsors and to fans trust that he is running a clean team. He claims that he trusts his riders.

Now who in the world would trust TD? His wife(wives) can't. His competitors don't. His teammates don't. NOBODY TRUSTS TD...about anything!!!! Except JV.

JV put his reputation on the line for TD and it completely and totally blew up in his face. Just like everyone said it would.

Sorry, correction, JV sold slipstream on being clean, because he had an internal testings system costing half a million a year to make sure his riders were clean. JV lied. JV has lied a lot.

JV has no reputation. No one in cycling has a reputation. JV like Armstrong has shown nothing but complete disdain for fans.

One only needs to wander into Velorooms forums to see JV has a lot of fans. A lot of people drink the JV koolaid thick and fast. He really is king of the kids. I think he is hilarious. He's made a truck load of money selling anti-doping as a commodity. I don't think he really cares what people thinks, he just keeps up the charade and selling more garmin shirts to his own profit. I don't think he is dumb as people make out. He just doesn't have a lot of ethics. Whether that matter or not is another question.

That place is frustrating. So many knowledgeable cycling fans that are totally naïve when it comes to doping. I only go there occasionally to discuss racing and things that actually involve riding my own bike.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

However If making personal comments about his ability to bed younger,legal aged consenting woman is meant to compound the disdain i have to tell you its having the opposite effect on me personally. I am even starting to like him a bit. JV is trying to race a clean team(putting aside the endless conspiracies), maybe another rider he is not an adjoined twin with,will test positive?? Possible No?Could anyone on this thread run a cycling team and guarantee never a positive?

The big issue that a lot of people here are in-delicately insinuating is that JV asked for a lot of trust. He asks sponsors and to fans trust that he is running a clean team. He claims that he trusts his riders.

Now who in the world would trust TD? His wife(wives) can't. His competitors don't. His teammates don't. NOBODY TRUSTS TD...about anything!!!! Except JV.

JV put his reputation on the line for TD and it completely and totally blew up in his face. Just like everyone said it would.

Sorry, correction, JV sold slipstream on being clean, because he had an internal testings system costing half a million a year to make sure his riders were clean. JV lied. JV has lied a lot.

JV has no reputation. No one in cycling has a reputation. JV like Armstrong has shown nothing but complete disdain for fans.

One only needs to wander into Velorooms forums to see JV has a lot of fans. A lot of people drink the JV koolaid thick and fast. He really is king of the kids. I think he is hilarious. He's made a truck load of money selling anti-doping as a commodity. I don't think he really cares what people thinks, he just keeps up the charade and selling more garmin shirts to his own profit. I don't think he is dumb as people make out. He just doesn't have a lot of ethics. Whether that matter or not is another question.

That place is frustrating. So many knowledgeable cycling fans that are totally naïve when it comes to doping. I only go there occasionally to discuss racing and things that actually involve riding my own bike.

The format is nice but the chat is scary! It's like a "In JV we trust" blog site. I saw a post claiming JV brought down Lance and thought, oh dear, we have so far to go....

 

[frenchfry]

Re: Re:

Jesus, just roll into his American home base, go on a few rides with the locals and see what they say. The dude is disliked through and true, and for good reason. As much as I dislike him, it is actually interesting too get the low down before he gets lanced.

Just so I don't get started hating the wrong dude, are you talking about Danielson (after all it is his thread) or JV (who has become the dominant subject of the discussion).

Sorry, I was referring to TD. JV, I haven't heard about too much second degree.

No need to be sorry, this place is confusing at times. Anyway, to make my life simpler, I have decided to hate them both.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Jesus, just roll into his American home base, go on a few rides with the locals and see what they say. The dude is disliked through and true, and for good reason. As much as I dislike him, it is actually interesting too get the low down before he gets lanced.

Just so I don't get started hating the wrong dude, are you talking about Danielson (after all it is his thread) or JV (who has become the dominant subject of the discussion).

Sorry, I was referring to TD. JV, I haven't heard about too much second degree.

No need to be sorry, this place is confusing at times. Anyway, to make my life simpler, I have decided to hate them both.

That makes good sense!

I don't see much difference between JV & TD. Fairly much the same career trajectory. TD will be managing a clean team in the US before we know it.

 

[john_d]

Why do some B samples take much longer than others ?