Teams & Riders Tom Dumoulin discussion thread

[shalgo]

It was quite obvious after last autumn. His athlete mindset already took extremely hard hit in that destroyer tt of Pogi, in the Tour. Next wave of gt athletes drove over many of these guys and if whoever wants to be chief number 3 or 4 when team says it's 1 or 2 only, well....

I am not surprised he is retiring—we have all known that he would at the end of the season since June—but I am surprised at the suddenness of the decision now, when he was expected to start a race tomorrow.
But I can understand his reasons for doing so, and wish him all the best in the future.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I am not surprised he is retiring—we have all known that he would at the end of the season since June—but I am surprised at the suddenness of the decision now, when he was expected to start a race tomorrow.
But I can understand his reasons for doing so, and wish him all the best in the future.

It wasn't that big of a surprise, considering he couldn't ride a criterium yesterday, where he was supposed to have been the guest of honour.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

It was quite obvious after last autumn. His athlete mindset already took extremely hard hit in that destroyer tt of Pogi, in the Tour. Next wave of gt athletes drove over many of these guys and if whoever wants to be chief number 3 or 4 when team says it's 1 or 2 only, well....

no, this is a bad take and not the reason at all.

Dumoulin wasn't frustrated with the high level of new athletes. He was frustrated most of all that he couldn't reach his best level, the level shown in 2017 and 2018. He was still at a great level in 2020 and in the olympic ITT in 2021, but he never felt like he did in 2018/2017 which caused a big level of frustration. I think if he reached his best level, and that was good enough for 5th in modern times, he'd be happy regardless. But it is in the fact he couldn't reach his level and kept getting tired that lies his frustration.

I read somewhere else tonight he shows classic signs of over training symptons, something similar to Marianne Vos, and that took a long time for Vos to recover from. I think that's also what Dumoulin said earlier this year when he announced his retirement. That he doesn't recover, and that he knows with small, slow steps he could recover to his best level (similar to what vos did), but he doesn't want to do it anymore.

 

[Sciatic]

To me, his Giro ride in 2018 was stronger than in 2017.. Frankly, had he been alone in the Sappada and Finestre stages, he wins that Giro, I think.. And he'd be only a crash from Thomas (not the hardest thing to happen) away from the double.

Gave us a great moments, including THAT image, which was kinda telling even back then tbh.

Anyway, be good in afterlife, Tom.

My "if only" with Tom was if only he'd followed Froome's wheel on Finestre, would have been interesting to see how that would have played out.

 

[Red Rick]

no, this is a bad take and not the reason at all.

Dumoulin wasn't frustrated with the high level of new athletes. He was frustrated most of all that he couldn't reach his best level, the level shown in 2017 and 2018. He was still at a great level in 2020 and in the olympic ITT in 2021, but he never felt like he did in 2018/2017 which caused a big level of frustration. I think if he reached his best level, and that was good enough for 5th in modern times, he'd be happy regardless. But it is in the fact he couldn't reach his level and kept getting tired that lies his frustration.

I read somewhere else tonight he shows classic signs of over training symptons, something similar to Marianne Vos, and that took a long time for Vos to recover from. I think that's also what Dumoulin said earlier this year when he announced his retirement. That he doesn't recover, and that he knows with small, slow steps he could recover to his best level (similar to what vos did), but he doesn't want to do it anymore.

With the sabbaticals he took it's weird how he got overtrained. But I do think it makes sense if he didn't build his form back naturally, and was always overreaching to get back into form for some objective. And he was overtraining himself for a long time.

 

[Red Rick]

My "if only" with Tom was if only he'd followed Froome's wheel on Finestre, would have been interesting to see how that would have played out.

If he crests Finestre with Froome that Giro is over right there.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Okaaay...

Not sure if this is in response to my statement or what I chose to emphasize (Tours not won rather than Giros and other wins). But like it or not as a GT rider the Tour is the ultimate measuring stick.

If he'd decided to just ride the Tour and not do the Giro-Tour double, do you really not think he could have won the Tour over G, who barely beat him? And if he again had prioritized the Tour in 2019 and/or not crashed in the Giro, he would have had a great chance at beating Bernal in 2019, who was no where near the level that year of Pogacar in 2020-2021 or Vingo in 2022.

Regardless, he was an amazing rider who entertained, won, and should be very proud of his career, even if it came to a disappointing conclusion.

 

[Bonimenier]

Not sure if this is in response to my statement or what I chose to emphasize (Tours not won rather than Giros and other wins). But like it or not as a GT rider the Tour is the ultimate measuring stick.

If he'd decided to just ride the Tour and not do the Giro-Tour double, do you really not think he could have won the Tour over G, who barely beat him? And if he again had prioritized the Tour in 2019 and/or not crashed in the Giro, he would have had a great chance at beating Bernal in 2019, who was no where near the level that year of Pogacar in 2020-2021 or Vingo in 2022.

Regardless, he was an amazing rider who entertained, won, and should be very proud of his career, even if it came to a disappointing conclusion.

Noone beats peak G(OAT)

 

[tobydawq]

Not sure if this is in response to my statement or what I chose to emphasize (Tours not won rather than Giros and other wins). But like it or not as a GT rider the Tour is the ultimate measuring stick.

If he'd decided to just ride the Tour and not do the Giro-Tour double, do you really not think he could have won the Tour over G, who barely beat him? And if he again had prioritized the Tour in 2019 and/or not crashed in the Giro, he would have had a great chance at beating Bernal in 2019, who was no where near the level that year of Pogacar in 2020-2021 or Vingo in 2022.

Regardless, he was an amazing rider who entertained, won, and should be very proud of his career, even if it came to a disappointing conclusion.

No, I certainly don't think he could have won two Tours.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

No, I certainly don't think he could have won two Tours.

Okaaaay

 

[Red Rick]

No, I certainly don't think he could have won two Tours.

It's hypotheticals, so we're basically down to nitpicking about the meaning of 'could win'.

If he goes full for GC a year earlier and goes all out for the Tour from 2016-2019 he could win 4. He could also win 3, 2, 1 or 0.

And yes, 0 or 1 would be the most likely options.

 

[tobydawq]

Okaaaay

Is that unreasonable? I think it's very fanciful to claim that a rider who was never particularly close to a Tour win could have been a multiple champion. I really don't think he was good enough uphill/sufficiently consistent for that.

He could definitely have won two Giri if he had taken the fight to Froome on the Finestre stage but he chose the passive way (I realise this probably sounds unduly harsh).

 

[YavorD]

If he crests Finestre with Froome that Giro is over right there.

Actually now when I rethink it, I still wonder why Tom didn't follow, if he could?

Yates was already distanced, so was Pozzovivo. Froome was his only possible rival. Not like anyone else had reason to follow Froome.

 

[Red Rick]

Actually now when I rethink it, I still wonder why Tom didn't follow, if he could?

Yates was already distanced, so was Pozzovivo. Froome was his only possible rival. Not like anyone else had reason to follow Froome.

I don't think he could.

 

[Sciatic]

Actually now when I rethink it, I still wonder why Tom didn't follow, if he could?

Yates was already distanced, so was Pozzovivo. Froome was his only possible rival. Not like anyone else had reason to follow Froome.

Weren't there still a couple of other riders in the lead group that Froome attacked from? I can't recall well enough--if the post-race analysis stated he thought it would be better to stay with a small group with so many kms still to go? He certainly didn't push super hard to try to stay with him. I'm sure other folks have a clearer recollection.

 

[Ricco']

With the sabbaticals he took it's weird how he got overtrained. But I do think it makes sense if he didn't build his form back naturally, and was always overreaching to get back into form for some objective. And he was overtraining himself for a long time.

I think is not only physical fatigue but also mental. And that can be a pain in the ass to come back from, specially if someone is used to a certain level and finds himself far from that level. And then there are two options: or someone has patience to build back slowly or someone goes faster burning steps and risks injuries/more fatigue. And if the spark or the enjoyment to do a certain thing, with the same level of commitment as before (after all, he knows what work he needed to do to reach that level), isn't there, it's very hard.

 

[YavorD]

Weren't there still a couple of other riders in the lead group that Froome attacked from? I can't recall well enough--if the post-race analysis stated he thought it would be better to stay with a small group with so many kms still to go? He certainly didn't push super hard to try to stay with him. I'm sure other folks have a clearer recollection.

Pretty sure it was only Pinot, Carapaz, Froome and Lopez..
Yeah, Reichenbach as well, but he was slightly distanced.

All of them were a minute plus (if I remember correctly) behind Froome.. Why would anyone be bothered to chase him when his direct rival (f.e Carapaz to Lopez) can benefit from your efforts?

 

[staubsauger]

Pretty sure it was only Pinot, Carapaz, Froome and Lopez..
Yeah, Reichenbach as well, but he was slightly distanced.

All of them were a minute plus (if I remember correctly) behind Froome.. Why would anyone be bothered to chase him when his direct rival (f.e Carapaz to Lopez) can benefit from your efforts?

Only Pozzovivo matched Froome's attack and totally blew because of it. The others were already gapped at that point.

 

[tonymikejoe]

A big reason Tom won the 2017 Giro were the two ITT's totalling 69.1km.
And he deserved to win.
No Tour de France since that Giro has had as many ITT kms.
If Tom was French (and when I first heard of him I thought he was, with a name like that) we would have suddenly seen throwback Tours with ITT kms of 100+ 150+ or even 200+.
The organisers can decide who has the best chance of winning when they design the parcours and it is just those circumstances that benefitted Tom in one Giro, but worked against him in other GTs.

 

[YavorD]

Only Pozzovivo matched Froome's attack and totally blew because of it. The others were already gapped at that point.

Sorry, but that's bulshit. Pozzovivo was probably minute behind by the time Froome attacked.

 

[ontheroad]

Actually now when I rethink it, I still wonder why Tom didn't follow, if he could?

Yates was already distanced, so was Pozzovivo. Froome was his only possible rival. Not like anyone else had reason to follow Froome.

I’m not sure he could follow but again my memory of it is not vividly clear. Big Toms biggest weakness was an inability to match accelerations in high mountains although he could often grind his way back by riding tempo.

Froome was insane that day and I don’t think Tom was ever capable of staying with him.

He was a very smooth rider and always liked his demeanour in interviews. Always came across as a clever guy. He maybe wasn’t the most flamboyant on the bike when it came to explosive attacking but he was poetry in motion in the TTs.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Chapeau!

 

[Tim Cahill]

He never had that psychotic edge a lot of the top GC guys have, seemed to retain his humanity even when winning which I liked about him.

I know we joke about it but I will always suspect that his mind was made up on the top of La Planche in 2020, the hollow look on his face is something I'll always remember.

Here is Oropa, complete with bonus Carlton calling some fans idiots!

 

[jmdirt]

Good luck with your next chapter Tom!

 

[Tonton]

I'm not surprised: Tom Dumoulin left on his own terms. Bravo Champion!