Teams & Riders Tom Dumoulin discussion thread

[VayaVayaVaya]

Is that unreasonable? I think it's very fanciful to claim that a rider who was never particularly close to a Tour win could have been a multiple champion. I really don't think he was good enough uphill/sufficiently consistent for that.

He could definitely have won two Giri if he had taken the fight to Froome on the Finestre stage but he chose the passive way (I realise this probably sounds unduly harsh).

Of course you’re under no obligation to provide a thoughtful response, but taking the time to quote a post and provide a statement without any attempt to explain the rationale seems like a waste of time to me. Kind of defeats the purpose of a forum, no?

In regard to the content, which is a fine opinion to have, although I’d agree with Red Rick that you’re just choosing a different definition of “could have,” I’d point out that getting second by 1:51 in the Tour after racing a very tough Giro (to a fresh rider with a better team) is not what I’d call “not particularly close” to winning a Tour. Had he not ridden the Giro, not sure how you could argue he wouldn’t have at least been closer. See all the other Giro-Tour attempts since Pantani.

2019 of course is a stretch but that was a weak year and Dumoulin crashed. Pinot was a stage or two away from winning, G came in out of shape and still wad probably as good as Bernal, who won. Crushweak was 1:31 away from the yellow Jersey. Wide open. Not saying Dumoulin 100% would have won, but I don’t honestly see any argument that his form and talent wasn’t better than his GT palmares or that he wasn’t some luck and decision making (prioritizing the Tour above all) away from at least 1 Tour.

Also, in 2017, the year that Dumoulin beat Quintana, Nibali, and Pinot to win the Giro despite having to take a dump during a key moment, Froome only beat Uran by :52 to win the Tour.

 

[Cookster15]

He never had that psychotic edge a lot of the top GC guys have, seemed to retain his humanity even when winning which I liked about him.

I know we joke about it but I will always suspect that his mind was made up on the top of La Planche in 2020, the hollow look on his face is something I'll always remember.

Here is Oropa, complete with bonus Carlton calling some fans idiots!

Fantastic. A great reminder of what Dumo at his best was capable of. Thanks for sharing, also agree with your comments on him - and the "bonus"

I am sad to read he is leaving the sport but he leaves on his own terms which nobody can deny.

 

[hfer07]

He never had that psychotic edge a lot of the top GC guys have, seemed to retain his humanity even when winning which I liked about him.

I know we joke about it but I will always suspect that his mind was made up on the top of La Planche in 2020, the hollow look on his face is something I'll always remember.

Here is Oropa, complete with bonus Carlton calling some fans idiots!

oh man, those memories of that Giro were the ones that kept us hoping for Dumo to come back one day.....
Wishing Tom and his loved ones the best of the best on his new journey.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Actually now when I rethink it, I still wonder why Tom didn't follow, if he could?

Yates was already distanced, so was Pozzovivo. Froome was his only possible rival. Not like anyone else had reason to follow Froome.

I think at that very moment of Froome's attack, it would have been considered sillier for Dumoulin to try to follow him. Yes in hindsight we know what happened, but it was miles from the finish; I don't think that even the biggest of Froome fans thought immediately at that moment that this was the move that was going to win Froome that Giro. And what if Dumoulin had tried to go with him, and blown up mini Yates style? The forever hypothetical would have been, "What if he had paced himself better?"

It was a combination of Froome's strength on the day, and pretty poor co-operation from the greatly reduced chase group behind.

 

[dusty red roads]

Re the 'heavy legs' etc - it's also possible his Covid bout affected him long-term than realized.

 

[Red Rick]

I think at that very moment of Froome's attack, it would have been considered sillier for Dumoulin to try to follow him. Yes in hindsight we know what happened, but it was miles from the finish; I don't think that even the biggest of Froome fans thought immediately at that moment that this was the move that was going to win Froome that Giro. And what if Dumoulin had tried to go with him, and blown up mini Yates style? The forever hypothetical would have been, "What if he had paced himself better?"

It was a combination of Froome's strength on the day, and pretty poor co-operation from the greatly reduced chase group behind.

Froome winning by 3 after everyone does Finestre wasnt that inconceivable.

How much time did he have on top of Finestre?

 

[Billie]

Froome winning by 3 after everyone does Finestre wasnt that inconceivable.

How much time did he have on top of Finestre?

The gap was 35 seconds before the Pinot mechanical.

I think if he had waited he could have brought back Froome in the descent and on the easier slopes of Sestriere.

 

[tobydawq]

Of course you’re under no obligation to provide a thoughtful response, but taking the time to quote a post and provide a statement without any attempt to explain the rationale seems like a waste of time to me. Kind of defeats the purpose of a forum, no?

In regard to the content, which is a fine opinion to have, although I’d agree with Red Rick that you’re just choosing a different definition of “could have,” I’d point out that getting second by 1:51 in the Tour after racing a very tough Giro (to a fresh rider with a better team) is not what I’d call “not particularly close” to winning a Tour. Had he not ridden the Giro, not sure how you could argue he wouldn’t have at least been closer. See all the other Giro-Tour attempts since Pantani.

2019 of course is a stretch but that was a weak year and Dumoulin crashed. Pinot was a stage or two away from winning, G came in out of shape and still wad probably as good as Bernal, who won. Crushweak was 1:31 away from the yellow Jersey. Wide open. Not saying Dumoulin 100% would have won, but I don’t honestly see any argument that his form and talent wasn’t better than his GT palmares or that he wasn’t some luck and decision making (prioritizing the Tour above all) away from at least 1 Tour.

Also, in 2017, the year that Dumoulin beat Quintana, Nibali, and Pinot to win the Giro despite having to take a dump during a key moment, Froome only beat Uran by :52 to win the Tour.

Look, I really don't know what to say. Your arguments may make sense but that's only taking Dumoulin's plans into account. If we're going into fantasy world like that, Froome might as well have focused wholeheartedly on the Tour too in 2018 and not had his crash in 2019. Contador could have extended his career and refound his Vuelta 2017 level. Roglic could have focused on the Tour in 2019.

Lots of riders can claim that they could have won the Tour in 2019, I certainly don't think Dumoulin has any special status among those, hence I find it somewhat ludicrous to say that he could have won two Tours.

And no, 1:51 might sound like it was close but it wasn't. Thomas was far better.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Froome winning by 3 after everyone does Finestre wasnt that inconceivable.

How much time did he have on top of Finestre?

There seems to be a narrative, that because of some sort of magical course design, that gaining huge time on that stage wasn't a big deal. I feel like Froome's performance there is undersold. Because probably very few riders in cycling history could have had the combination of power and endurance to not only get a significant gap in that situation, but to then hold it (he didn't even lose any time on the final climb from memory) all the way to the finish.

 

[42x16ss]

There seems to be a narrative, that because of some sort of magical course design, that gaining huge time on that stage wasn't a big deal. I feel like Froome's performance there is undersold. Because probably very few riders in cycling history could have had the combination of power and endurance to not only get a significant gap in that situation, but to then hold it (he didn't even lose any time on the final climb from memory) all the way to the finish.

Yep. George Bennett summarised it perfectly.

 

[Pinot's goat]

And no, 1:51 might sound like it was close but it wasn't. Thomas was far better.

Dumoulin lost 1:10 due to mechanical and time penalty on the Mur de Bretagne stage.

 

[tobydawq]

Dumoulin lost 1:10 due to mechanical and time penalty on the Mur de Bretagne stage.

And Thomas won both Alpine MTF stages and would have won the TT if he didn't slow down due to carefulness in the final part.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

And Thomas won both Alpine MTF stages and would have won the TT if he didn't slow down due to carefulness in the final part.

There is a nuance here

Thomas was better as you point out. The only time Dumolin put time into Thomas on the whole Tour was the stage 20 ITT where Thomas had already + 2 minutes lead.

But I wouldn't say Thomas was 'far better', rather 'a bit better'.

Dumolan lost 1:13 on mur de bretagne because of mechanical. So there is 38 seconds between them, 19 of which were bonus seconds for Thomas. Thomas won the Tour because of his abilities to get top 3 placings and gap dumolin in the final km of climbs.

There were never big time gaps.

Hoeever, there is no way you could argue Dumoulin would have won that tour. Actually I had forgotten how dominant Thomas was in that tour, no in terms of time gaps but in terms of top placings on the stages

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

There is a nuance here

Thomas was better as you point out. The only time Dumolin put time into Thomas on the whole Tour was the stage 20 ITT where Thomas had already + 2 minutes lead.

But I wouldn't say Thomas was 'far better', rather 'a bit better'.

Dumolan lost 1:13 on mur de bretagne because of mechanical. So there is 38 seconds between them, 19 of which were bonus seconds for Thomas. Thomas won the Tour because of his abilities to get top 3 placings and gap dumolin in the final km of climbs.

There were never big time gaps.

Hoeever, there is no way you could argue Dumoulin would have won that tour. Actually I had forgotten how dominant Thomas was in that tour, no in terms of time gaps but in terms of top placings on the stages

I don’t understand how it’s controversial that generally doing the Giro first has cost riders minutes in the Tour. Contador, Quintana, Froome, etc. Everyone was minutes off. Of course Dumoulin could have won that Tour if he hadn’t done the Giro first. He also might not have. That’s the difference between could have and would have.

 

[Red Rick]

2018 Tour is weird for me. It's like Thomas was never really tested yet I don't feel he was invincible either way.

I feel like if Thomas was that much stronger he would've taken more time on Col de Portet and Alpe d'Huez. Especially Portet, you can say he rode defensively, but then I would take Contador vs Froome on Ancares/Farrapona for how much time you can take after wheelsucking most o fthe climb.

I also think 2017 Froome wasn't crazy strong or anything, and I think 2019 Bernal was deffo beatable for peak Dumo.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Any cyclist that excels in both ITT and GT racing has in my opinion achieved much in his career. Can always look back feeling satisfied.

The thing with Dumoulin is himself and we all hoped for the invested effort in some goals would turn out better. Compared to building frustration. Then again he won a silver medal at Olympics in this late part of his career. It's not like results didn't came at all.

Personally i am a bit surprised he won't undertake worlds. But at some point you need to draw the line and we need to respect that.

 

[Netserk]

2018 Tour is weird for me. It's like Thomas was never really tested yet I don't feel he was invincible either way.

I feel like if Thomas was that much stronger he would've taken more time on Col de Portet and Alpe d'Huez. Especially Portet, you can say he rode defensively, but then I would take Contador vs Froome on Ancares/Farrapona for how much time you can take after wheelsucking most o fthe climb.

I also think 2017 Froome wasn't crazy strong or anything, and I think 2019 Bernal was deffo beatable for peak Dumo.

Sky rode for Froome's podium after Thomas took yellow.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Tom Dumoulin: I hated cycling so much but I’m not done with it yet

'For the first time in my life I can fill in everything myself,' says former Giro d'Italia winner.

www.velonews.com

 

[Lequack]

After retirement and divorce, Tom Dumoulin looks forward to life outside cycling

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/after-retirement-and-divorce-tom-dumoulin-looks-forward-to-life-outside-cycling/

“I'm getting a divorce. We decided that last week. I don't know if that's necessarily something for the newspaper,” he revealed. “I always hoped that I wouldn't become one of those cyclists who got divorced after his career ended. But unfortunately, that is the case.”
For now, Dumoulin is not interested in a coaching role or any involvement in professional cycling. His love of the sport is still alive and he may return in the future, but he now needs time for himself.

 

[Bolder]

After retirement and divorce, Tom Dumoulin looks forward to life outside cycling

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/after-retirement-and-divorce-tom-dumoulin-looks-forward-to-life-outside-cycling/

“I'm getting a divorce. We decided that last week. I don't know if that's necessarily something for the newspaper,” he revealed. “I always hoped that I wouldn't become one of those cyclists who got divorced after his career ended. But unfortunately, that is the case.”
For now, Dumoulin is not interested in a coaching role or any involvement in professional cycling. His love of the sport is still alive and he may return in the future, but he now needs time for himself.

Tough two years for TD. I hope he finds inner peace. He was definitely my favorite GC rider from 2016 until his injury.

 

[webvan]

“Maybe I wasn't the best person to be a professional cyclist for fifteen years, no. In fact, I'm not suited for that. That's why it ran away after eleven years.”

Odd and sad...a conflicted fellow for sure...without the weird (as in stones they failed to detect) knee injury in 2019 it could have ended differently.

 

[pastronef]

I was a Dumo fan twice: I liked Dumo in 2015 when he almost won the Vuelta. I liked him in 2017 when he beat the climbers and won the Giro.
Kittel train-man and cronoman turned light climber beating Quintana in Oropa. he did a huge transformation. people loved it.
I always had the feeling he must consider himself lucky, for being Dutch, and riding for Sunweb.
other transformations weren't welcomed as good as his.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I feel for the guy. Brutal time. I hope he finds peace but doubt he has it now.

 

[Lequack]

So what is he doing nowadays? Planning a comeback?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So what is he doing nowadays? Planning a comeback?

Why on earth did you bump this? He's retired, there is no news. Dutch people reading the forum are getting heart attacks seeing this thread got bumped.