Tom Dumoulin discussion thread

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jaylew said:
Tonton said:
I agree with Dumourain and lenric (I mean it ;) ): all he had to do was control his two closest rivals. He did it. It was up to Nibali and Quintana to defend their podium spot. If they care about a podium spot, which they probably don't. Between Quintana sprinting for a time bonus after TD waited for him and Nibali/Zakarin not waiting, there's pay back. First he caught Zakarin's first attack, then let the gap to Pinot/Pozzo go to a minute. FDJ has been nice to him. If he can help Pinot stick it to them, he will.
C'mon, you don't actually believe Dumo cares about that, do you? So, Nairo's supposed to think, "Dumo waited (even though we didn't need him to), so I should soft peddle the sprint and be careful not to get any bonus seconds, (unless Tom also gets some) despite the fact I'm getting my butt kicked at the moment"

Even if someone waits, once the race is back on, the race is back on.
I do. And maybe Dumoulin did. I'm probably much older than you, but yes, it's a new era. The rule is obsolete, but for many European riders, it's one of the golden rules. Dumoulin waited for Quintana, like Ulrich waited for Lance, just to get punched in the mouth. New world, new era.

I'm wearing the pink jersey, you don't wait, you disrespect me, and the sport. I can imagine this line of thinking. The Dutch, and Belgians, are often old school. I respect that. But the rule is obsolete. It's all about winning. Things have changed: imagine a Poulidor thread these days: he'd be crucified, called a loser, get no respect. Maybe he should focus on one-week races Millennials, you win. I'm not sure it's a good thing...
 
Tonton said:
jaylew said:
Tonton said:
I agree with Dumourain and lenric (I mean it ;) ): all he had to do was control his two closest rivals. He did it. It was up to Nibali and Quintana to defend their podium spot. If they care about a podium spot, which they probably don't. Between Quintana sprinting for a time bonus after TD waited for him and Nibali/Zakarin not waiting, there's pay back. First he caught Zakarin's first attack, then let the gap to Pinot/Pozzo go to a minute. FDJ has been nice to him. If he can help Pinot stick it to them, he will.
C'mon, you don't actually believe Dumo cares about that, do you? So, Nairo's supposed to think, "Dumo waited (even though we didn't need him to), so I should soft peddle the sprint and be careful not to get any bonus seconds, (unless Tom also gets some) despite the fact I'm getting my butt kicked at the moment"

Even if someone waits, once the race is back on, the race is back on.
I do. And maybe Dumoulin did. I'm probably much older than you, but yes, it's a new era. The rule is obsolete, but for many European riders, it's one of the golden rules. Dumoulin waited for Quintana, like Ulrich waited for Lance, just to get punched in the mouth. New world, new era.

I'm wearing the pink jersey, you don't wait, you disrespect me, and the sport. I can imagine this line of thinking. The Dutch, and Belgians, are often old school. I respect that. But the rule is obsolete. It's all about winning. Things have changed: imagine a Poulidor thread these days: he'd be crucified, called a loser, get no respect. Maybe he should focus on one-week races Millennials, you win. I'm not sure it's a good thing...
So where do you draw the line? Once that happened, is Nairo no longer allowed to race? Is he allowed to attack at all? Under what circumstance, if any, is he allowed to finish ahead of Dumoulin at that point? Thing is, Nairo didn't even need the assistance. It wasn't likely to affect the outcome in any way.
 
It seems many posters here and in the previous race thread have created a false dichotomy. Because a rider like Nairo or Nibs is willing to risk their current position to win the overall does NOT mean they don't care about a podium spot.

Based on the visual evidence (I can't know how they're actually feeling physically), Nairo and Nibbles cannot beat Tom straight up. He's too strong. In most gameplaying, when you can't beat someone straight up, you need to bluff, stall, or otherwise rattle the stronger player. In this case, the only way they can give themselves a chance to win is to play chicken with Tom when one of the other riders like Zakarin or Tibo goes up the road. If they have the guts to wait as the gap goes out to 1 minute . .. 2 minutes ... or more, eventually Dumoulin will take up the chase himself. He will do that not because he's not mentally tough but rather because he has by far the most to lose. So at that point N &N get on his wheel while he powers up to, let's say, TiboPino. And assuming they can follow his wheel, Then they have given themselves a chance-- not only are they back up to the riders who could threaten their podium spots, but they also have a more fatigued pink jersey to ride against.

So "playing chicken" about who will chase attackers gives them a chance to win but does not necessary throw away their podium places. Of course it might fail,but that's the nature of risk taking. It seems like pretty basic game logic, so I'm not sure why many folks don't see it that way. Barring accidents/ unscheduled pit stops, it may be their only way to win. And that's what they are supposed to be trying to do, right?
 
Mar 18, 2009
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They all have a point. Not sure that anyone should be upset by it though, you have to apply a risky and not so nice tactic every now and again.
But come on, the race just got slightly more interesting...more riders closer to the top, more attacks etc
Lets see if Tom can best these guys in the remaining climbs....
 
Tonton said:
I agree with Dumourain and lenric (I mean it ;) ): all he had to do was control his two closest rivals. He did it. It was up to Nibali and Quintana to defend their podium spot. If they care about a podium spot, which they probably don't. Between Quintana sprinting for a time bonus after TD waited for him and Nibali/Zakarin not waiting, there's pay back. First he caught Zakarin's first attack, then let the gap to Pinot/Pozzo go to a minute. FDJ has been nice to him. If he can help Pinot stick it to them, he will.

I don't like too much talking: he hasn't won yet. BM Tom is playing into NIbali's hands. Nibali talks too much...feud and make-up with Fabio, the letter, the "I don't expect anyone to wait for me", blah, blah, blah. I listed Vicenzo in my favorite riders in the thread last month. But come on Vinnie: less talking and more pedalling...

Dumoulin will learn from it: even if you speak the truth, the things that you say can come across in negative light. Then instead of the new Indurain, people think of you as the new Armstrong. Not good.

AFAIC, Quintana was arrogant too, showing up not at 100% and expecting to win. Like he's soooo much better than everyone else.

Let your riding speak for you Tom.

And enjoy the pink in Milan.
Whatever Dumoulin's objectives are are his alone. So he really can't expect to badger his rivals into escorting him to Milan to shake his hand. He'd do well to shut his trap and focus on his own race.

Nibali already said before the Bormio stage he's not working with Dumoulin, nor at this stage of his career does anything but a win in a GC count. Quintana wants the double, not 2nd place. It is consequently obvious they would not collaborate.

Whatever strategy Domoulin, or anyone else, thinks is best for them and the "podium" is irrelevant. At any rate, I was liking Dumoulin till he showed his cocky side. And he should save the talking of pink for Milan.
 
Dumoulin should stop whining and should get used to the world of Peter Sagan, the world of true champions who ride against everyone all year long.
In fact he should consider himself as a happy man, he had to deal with bad situation only last 3kms on yesterday's stage.
 
Aug 2, 2012
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tom...........still hurting from 'that vuelta'...........where he was taken apart by the spanish armada?

Mark L
 
Aug 31, 2012
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rhubroma said:
Tonton said:
I agree with Dumourain and lenric (I mean it ;) ): all he had to do was control his two closest rivals. He did it. It was up to Nibali and Quintana to defend their podium spot. If they care about a podium spot, which they probably don't. Between Quintana sprinting for a time bonus after TD waited for him and Nibali/Zakarin not waiting, there's pay back. First he caught Zakarin's first attack, then let the gap to Pinot/Pozzo go to a minute. FDJ has been nice to him. If he can help Pinot stick it to them, he will.

I don't like too much talking: he hasn't won yet. BM Tom is playing into NIbali's hands. Nibali talks too much...feud and make-up with Fabio, the letter, the "I don't expect anyone to wait for me", blah, blah, blah. I listed Vicenzo in my favorite riders in the thread last month. But come on Vinnie: less talking and more pedalling...

Dumoulin will learn from it: even if you speak the truth, the things that you say can come across in negative light. Then instead of the new Indurain, people think of you as the new Armstrong. Not good.

AFAIC, Quintana was arrogant too, showing up not at 100% and expecting to win. Like he's soooo much better than everyone else.

Let your riding speak for you Tom.

And enjoy the pink in Milan.
Whatever Dumoulin's objectives are are his alone. So he really can't expect to badger his rivals into escorting him to Milan to shake his hand. He'd do well to shut his trap and focus on his own race.

Nibali already said before the Bormio stage he's not working with Dumoulin, nor at this stage of his career does anything but a win in a GC count. Quintana wants the double, not 2nd place. It is consequently obvious they would not collaborate.

Whatever strategy Domoulin, or anyone else, thinks is best for them and the "podium" is irrelevant. At any rate, I was liking Dumoulin till he showed his cocky side. And he should save the talking of pink for Milan.

It's probably true that Nibali cares less about the podium than Quintana, who cares less about it than anyone else riding competing for GC in this Giro. But they do care, and their teams care as well.

I like Dumoulin showing his cocky side, if he has such a side, whilst there is still a chance he'll be exposed.

Nothing worse than those who morph into arseholes only when they are safe from repercussions. The winner's condescension.
 
I don't think Dumoulin is cocky/sure. He has a lot of experience losing leader jerseys on the final days (it also happened on the Eneco tour a few years ago).

He's just genuinely mad nobody wants to work with him. I think it's logical, because why would you close a gap for the GC leader. (FDJ, why?). But if I were the leader, I would still be annoyed as well.

Just emotions after the race. Normal.
 
It's fair enough for Dumoulin to be angry after a hard stage, and I enjoyed his comments, however he would be well advised to keep in mind that - as many others have said - Nibali and Quintana do have goals that are opposite of his, so he can't depend on them to do what's best for himself.

He can say whatever he wants, but his race tactics have to be pragmatic and self-interested.
 
Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
I don't think Dumoulin is cocky/sure. He has a lot of experience losing leader jerseys on the final days (it also happened on the Eneco tour a few years ago).

He's just genuinely mad nobody wants to work with him. I think it's logical, because why would you close a gap for the GC leader. (FDJ, why?). But if I were the leader, I would still be annoyed as well.

Just emotions after the race. Normal.
Yep just emotions deep in the 3rd week. Pretty normal. Nibali's displeasure at Dumo's comments also suggest he is feeling the pressure physically and emotionally although its more likely he is just playing mind games because on the road he knows Dumoulin has his measure. Quintana might be the one to be more wary of come Monte Grappa.
 
I'm torn on whether it would be good for cycling if a rider like Dumoulin becomes a major GC player over the next few years? I thought it would be, because the more high quality GC riders the better in theory. But, on the other hand, I'm not sure another Wiggins is going to make for great racing. A rider destroying others in the TT and then riding to his power meter to limit losses in the mountains is pretty dull to watch.

It's kind of fun to see him now as a new face and a novelty shaking up the existing order. And he seems generally to be a decent guy, but watching Wiggins became tiresome pretty quickly for anyone other than his UK fan club.
 
Re:

King Boonen said:
Sagan makes comments like this all the time yet most of this forum love him...

Come on Tam, would love to see you finish this off!
LOL, never heard of Sagan wishing anybody bad luck/health issues/lack of performance in the next race.
 
Re: Re:

Martin said:
LOL, never heard of Sagan wishing anybody bad luck/health issues/lack of performance in the next race.
That's not fair, that's not at all what Dumoulin said or implied or meant. He wants Nibali and Quintana to be punished for what he perceived as laziness/cowardice in race tactics, that's all.
 
Re: Re:

Martin said:
King Boonen said:
Sagan makes comments like this all the time yet most of this forum love him...

Come on Tam, would love to see you finish this off!
LOL, never heard of Sagan wishing anybody bad luck/health issues/lack of performance in the next race.
TD didn't wish that on anyone either but I suppose this just goes to show exactly what I was trying to point out.
 
Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
I've never seen Wiggins do attacks or giving opponents the stare or doing fake attacks.

Dumoulin seems more comparable to he who must not be named.
Haha, yes, the stare was like going back a few generations. But he's certainly no Armstrong in his riding style - at least not yet. I guess there's a chance he could evolve into a rider more like Froome than Wiggins, but at the moment he's more like the latter I would say. The problem is the inevitability of his performances, like with Wiggins in 2012 (if, and imo its still quite a big if, he can finish the job off). It's OK having a strong TTist and someone who rides to power in the mountains as long as their riding to power isn't as strong as the best climbers. If it is, then the GC battle ca be pretty dull - even more so if/when he gets a stronger team around him Wiggins-style.
 
We've seen very often riders like Sagan and Cancellara getting mad and complaining about other riders' tactics. However, I can't recall any of them openly wishing their opponents had bad results or misfortune and anticipating the happiness they'd get if their wishes are realised.
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
Martin said:
King Boonen said:
Sagan makes comments like this all the time yet most of this forum love him...

Come on Tam, would love to see you finish this off!
LOL, never heard of Sagan wishing anybody bad luck/health issues/lack of performance in the next race.
TD didn't wish that on anyone either but I suppose this just goes to show exactly what I was trying to point out.
Oh, and how does he imagine they will finish outside podium? Like, stopping for a call of nature as he did and FDJ/Katusha will this time force the speed up?
 
Re: Re:

Martin said:
King Boonen said:
Martin said:
King Boonen said:
Sagan makes comments like this all the time yet most of this forum love him...

Come on Tam, would love to see you finish this off!
LOL, never heard of Sagan wishing anybody bad luck/health issues/lack of performance in the next race.
TD didn't wish that on anyone either but I suppose this just goes to show exactly what I was trying to point out.
Oh, and how does he imagine they will finish outside podium? Like, stopping for a call of nature as he did and FDJ/Katusha will this time force the speed up?
Sorry, I can't read his mind. I can only hear what he said and he did not say what you said he did. The most obvious thought would be that by watching him they allow other riders, likely Zakarin and Pinot, to take enough time that they finish on the podium instead of Quintana and Nibali, but that's pure speculation.
 

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