Tom 'Pidders' Pidcock

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Some of the hate here for Pidcock is unwarranted.
If some of this commentary was on the Remco thread it will go in to meltdown…
He’s not a terrible gc rider, and a solid rider overall, lots of nice classics results.
It’s hardly out of the question he could get a few top tens in gts, not really worse than most of the other ‘gc’ riders.
Forza Pidcock

This is a very interesting post, after having read your musings in the Evenepoel thread. And if people spoke this way about Evenepoel, a double world champion, double olympic champion, double monument winner and GT winner, it would be amusing indeed. I can see how one would be confused and talk about Evenepoel as if he were Pidcock. A bit like how would people in the Pogacar thread react if he got commentary as if he were Ben Healy or David Gaudu?

 

[Cycling111]

In the Giro, his team did the same thing. Controlling the stages for nothing.

Pidcock has to get into the breakaways.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Pidcocks finishing top ten this vuelta.
Podium next year
Wins a gt the year after, proves everyone wrong 💪

 

[Ripper]

Well, he is best result is what 15th or 16th in a gt ? So it doesn’t seem great
But he had a hell of a lot success in mtbing, cross, junior road results , people forget he won both Roubaix as a junior and u23, junior world tts etc

Now maybe that all doesn’t immediately say gt winner, but what about cadel evans coming from mtb? Wiggins coming from 4 minute efforts in the track ?

Pidcock basically has done road cycling as a second career since he started, he’s shown he can do everything else on a bike, he’s can climb well on shorter climbs.

I don’t think it’s ridiculous to say if he went all out to train for gts he could get pretty close.

To be honest it’s Pidcock himself that decided he didn’t want to focus on gt’s. Didn’t sky want to try to do gt’s with him? So even they thought he could. He just doesn’t seem interested and seems to prefer mtb to anything else.
But he has or had all the credentials to be a gt rider. Instead he focused on and won back to back Olympic mtbs.
The hate for Pidcock here is real

Replying to this in the more appropriate thread ...

But he can't TT well, does not show 3 week resilience, and his ability to win on big climbs against the other favorites is suspect. Cadel definitely demonstrated those traits early.

Pidcock is an amazing MTB rider based on his physiology and technique. He also is well suited to certain classics and some 1 week races. And stage hunting.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Replying to this in the more appropriate thread ...

But he can't TT well, does not show 3 week resilience, and his ability to win on big climbs against the other favorites is suspect. Cadel definitely demonstrated those traits early.

Pidcock is an amazing MTB rider based on his physiology and technique. He also is well suited to certain classics and some 1 week races. And stage hunting.

They are fair points but you mention his physiology, I think if he really wanted to target a gt it wouldn’t be his physiology that stopped him, it’s more his mindset in preferring one day races. It’s not like he’s too big and heavy to transfer his abilities to longer races.
He’s a decent tter when he wants to be as well.
Ineos obviously thought they had something with him at one point as well.

 

[Ripper]

They are fair points but you mention his physiology, I think if he really wanted to target a gt it wouldn’t be his physiology that stopped him, it’s more his mindset in preferring one day races. It’s not like he’s too big and heavy to transfer his abilities to longer races.
He’s a decent tter when he wants to be as well.
Ineos obviously thought they had something with him at one point as well.

What decent TTs has he had in recent memory?

 

[Peyroteo94]

Pidcock competes with Ayuso to see who is the most overrated rider in the world.

 

[Charlyghoul]

What decent TTs has he had in recent memory?

To be honest with you, I don’t know or really care.
What I do know, he had enough talent to win the junior worlds tt.
Enough talent to comeback from a puncture to win the Olympic mtb which was basically a time trial.
Is he a world beating tter? Probably not.
Could he be a decent tter if he wanted ? I don’t see why not.
Has he got the talent to challenge for a gt ? I think he does, Ineos thought so too.
But maybe you know more than them?

 

[Ripper]

To be honest with you, I don’t know or really care.
What I do know, he had enough talent to win the junior worlds tt.
Enough talent to comeback from a puncture to win the Olympic mtb which was basically a time trial.
Is he a world beating tter? Probably not.
Could he be a decent tter if he wanted ? I don’t see why not.
Has he got the talent to challenge for a gt ? I think he does, Ineos thought so too.
But maybe you know more than them?

Ineos have made a lot of bad bets, so who knows what intel or other reasons. I mean, Pidcock is a world class rider and he is British ... I think that is generally enough for Ineos.

He is an amazing MTB rider. By heart rate, an XCO or XCC race can be a lot like a TT. By power profiles/outputs and aerodynamics, it is nothing like a TT.

I do not think I have seen anything that suggests that Pidcock could challenge for the podium in a GT, at least not yet. He has demonstrated he win stages. And one week races with no significant TT are equally plausible. And of course, there are road races he performs well at.

I guess we will find out more in a couple of weeks. I think he did say he was going for the GC here? Albeit hedging by also stating stage wins were more important. So, I am happy to be proven incorrect by his legs doing the talking.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Pidcock competes with Ayuso to see who is the most overrated rider in the world.

And Pogacar competes with the noob fans to see who is the goat…
You’ve called him the goat numerous times despite barely having a winning record against his only serious tour rival ( none of the other multiple tour winners struggled like that ) and only winning three of five monuments thus far.
Has won less than Froome in terms of grand tours.

You comment on Remco thread as though Pogacar is the goat when in reality Pogacar is literally closer to Remco in terms of big wins than a rider like Merckx or Hinault.
And all this is in an era where ostensibly the quality is better but in reality he has one rival in the tour (who he hasn’t really dominated) and one in classics (a cross rider who’s spanked him in Roubaix and San remo)

 

[AmRacer]

And Pogacar competes with the noob fans to see who is the goat…
You’ve called him the goat numerous times despite barely having a winning record against his only serious tour rival ( none of the other multiple tour winners struggled like that ) and only winning three of five monuments thus far.
Has won less than Froome in terms of grand tours.

You comment on Remco thread as though Pogacar is the goat when in reality Pogacar is literally closer to Remco in terms of big wins than a rider like Merckx or Hinault.
And all this is in an era where ostensibly the quality is better but in reality he has one rival in the tour (who he hasn’t really dominated) and one in classics (a cross rider who’s spanked him in Roubaix and San remo)

That's high quality

 

[Charlyghoul]

Ineos have made a lot of bad bets, so who knows what intel or other reasons. I mean, Pidcock is a world class rider and he is British ... I think that is generally enough for Ineos.

He is an amazing MTB rider. By heart rate, an XCO or XCC race can be a lot like a TT. By power profiles/outputs and aerodynamics, it is nothing like a TT.

I do not think I have seen anything that suggests that Pidcock could challenge for the podium in a GT, at least not yet. He has demonstrated he win stages. And one week races with no significant TT are equally plausible. And of course, there are road races he performs well at.

I guess we will find out more in a couple of weeks. I think he did say he was going for the GC here? Albeit hedging by also stating stage wins were more important. So, I am happy to be proven incorrect by his legs doing the talking.

I don’t know, to be honest I don’t follow him or any particular rider that much but I just think from what he’s showed he could be there in gts if he concentrated on them, maybe I’m wrong.

 

[AmRacer]

I don’t know, to be honest I don’t follow him or any particular rider that much but I just think from what he’s showed he could be there in gts if he concentrated on them, maybe I’m wrong.

I think you are right on this one.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I never followed Paul Scholes too closely, but I think he could have won a World Cup if he had really concentrated on it.

Pidcock's GC bid is going decently so far, but he's still in a situation where he risks throwing away stage wins for a lower end top 10 finish, which he could possibly achieve through breakaways anyway.

 

[Peyroteo94]

And Pogacar competes with the noob fans to see who is the goat…
You’ve called him the goat numerous times despite barely having a winning record against his only serious tour rival ( none of the other multiple tour winners struggled like that ) and only winning three of five monuments thus far.
Has won less than Froome in terms of grand tours.

You comment on Remco thread as though Pogacar is the goat when in reality Pogacar is literally closer to Remco in terms of big wins than a rider like Merckx or Hinault.
And all this is in an era where ostensibly the quality is better but in reality he has one rival in the tour (who he hasn’t really dominated) and one in classics (a cross rider who’s spanked him in Roubaix and San remo)

Pogacar is the best ever without a doubt in my mind.

Literally closer? Let's do the maths!
Remco: 2x LBL, WCRR, ORR, Vuelta - 5 big wins
Pogacar: 4x GdL, 4x TdF, 3x LBL, 2x RVV, WCRR, Giro - 15 big wins wins
Hinault: 5x TdF, 3x Giro, 2x Vuelta, 2x LBL, 2x GdL, PR, WCRR - 16 big wins
Merckx: 5x TdF, 5x Giro, Vuelta, 7x MSR, 5x LBL, 2x RVV, 3x PR, 2x GdL, 3x WCRR - 33 big wins

Gap to Merckx: - 18 big wins
Gap to Hinault: - 1 big win
Gap to Remco: + 10 big wins

So no, Pogacar is not literally closer to Remco than Hinault for example. In 2 years, we talk about the gap to Merckx. He is only 27.

And I will say, Pidcock will not even top5 a GT.

 

[Charlyghoul]

I never followed Paul Scholes too closely, but I think he could have won a World Cup if he had really concentrated on it.

Pidcock's GC bid is going decently so far, but he's still in a situation where he risks throwing away stage wins for a lower end top 10 finish, which he could possibly achieve through breakaways anyway.

You dare to mention the ginger prince? That guy was the player iniesta wishes he could be.
Pidcocks personal preferences aside, the guy has the potential to be getting near a podium of a gt if he so wished.
We stand with Pidcock

 

[Charlyghoul]

Pogacar is the best ever without a doubt in my mind.

Literally closer? Let's do the maths!
Remco: 2x LBL, WCRR, ORR, Vuelta - 5 big wins
Pogacar: 4x GdL, 4x TdF, 3x LBL, 2x RVV, WCRR, Giro - 15 big wins wins
Hinault: 5x TdF, 3x Giro, 2x Vuelta, 2x LBL, 2x GdL, PR, WCRR - 16 big wins
Merckx: 5x TdF, 5x Giro, Vuelta, 7x MSR, 5x LBL, 2x RVV, 3x PR, 2x GdL, 3x WCRR - 33 big wins

Gap to Merckx: - 18 big wins
Gap to Hinault: - 1 big win
Gap to Remco: + 10 big wins

So no, Pogacar is not literally closer to Remco than Hinault for example. In 2 years, we talk about the gap to Merckx. He is only 27.

And I will say, Pidcock will not even top5 a GT.

Merckx (the goat) also has an hour record, and Gp des nations win.
So Pogacar is already *miles* behind Merckx and will, even if he keeps putting out these superhuman watts per kilo for several more years, in all likelihood finish closer to Remco than Merckx.

Merckx, the guy who won at least two of every monument, not to mention Amstel, flèche, omloop, worlds…

Pogacar hasn’t even shown he can win against a guy who is clearly inferior to De Vlaeminck in the classics, and has lost almost half the time to his only tour rival…again, no other multiple tour winners had that.

As you said yourself, Pog is not even Hinault level yet, and would have to win a lot more gt’s to even be on that level…let alone Merckx
Your love of Pog as the goat is ridiculous, and to infect a thread of a genuinely versatile rider like Pidcock with this pog goat nonsense is just sad.

 

[Extinction]

Merckx (the goat) also has an hour record, and Gp des nations win.
So Pogacar is already *miles* behind Merckx and will, even if he keeps putting out these superhuman watts per kilo for several more years, in all likelihood finish closer to Remco than Merckx.

Merckx, the guy who won at least two of every monument, not to mention Amstel, flèche, omloop, worlds…

Pogacar hasn’t even shown he can win against a guy who is clearly inferior to De Vlaeminck in the classics, and has lost almost half the time to his only tour rival…again, no other multiple tour winners had that.

As you said yourself, Pog is not even Hinault level yet, and would have to win a lot more gt’s to even be on that level…let alone Merckx
Your love of Pog as the goat is ridiculous, and to infect a thread of a genuinely versatile rider like Pidcock with this pog goat nonsense is just sad.

Well, we'd have to put Merckx in today and Pog yesterday and the conditions it presupposes, but this is not possible.

 

[Charlyghoul]

It was you who brought Pogacar to this thread...
But for now on, don't worry, you are on my ignore list. It's impossible to discuss something reasonable with you, at least for me. You have plenty of people here to discuss what you want.
Cheers

You can’t handle any criticism of your favourite rider, have to put other posters on ignore.
You can’t discuss something reasonable because your analysis of Pog as the goat is already unreasonable

 

[Charlyghoul]

For the record I never started anything here it was your ‘OMG’ at my suggestion of Pidcock being able to win a grand tour.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

You dare to mention the ginger prince? That guy was the player iniesta wishes he could be.
Pidcocks personal preferences aside, the guy has the potential to be getting near a podium of a gt if he so wished.
We stand with Pidcock

At this point we can conclude that he has a greater chance of getting a GT podium than Scholes does, but not that he has a great chance in general.

Sure, he was a promising junior and U23 rider, but since then he has been surpassed by quite a few riders on the road in terms of GT GC abilities. Until proven otherwise, I think he will better off following the Ben Healy approach instead.

 

[Charlyghoul]

At this point we can conclude that he has a greater chance of getting a GT podium than Scholes does, but not that he has a great chance in general.

Sure, he was a promising junior and U23 rider, but since then he has been surpassed by quite a few riders on the road in terms of GT GC abilities. Until proven otherwise, I think he will better off following the Ben Healy approach instead.

That’s mostly because he’s concentrated on Mtb, with road as a second concern.
He has come top fifteen in the tour, what if he hadn’t bothered with mtb at all the last five years, do you not think he can be looking at a gt podium?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

That’s mostly because he’s concentrated on Mtb, with road as a second concern.
He has come top fifteen in the tour, what if he hadn’t bothered with mtb at all the last five years, do you not think he can be looking at a gt podium?

Not anymore, no. It's been 3 years since he won on Alpe d'Huez, and time hasn't stood still since. But he is still only 26, so it's obviously not too late for him to prove me wrong, and I have no reason to root against him. It could already happen in this race, with a bit of luck, but after watching him in the Giro this year, I just don't trust the process. He finished 17 minutes behind Davide Piganzoli who too messed up tactically by not being in any breaks, but the Italian has the theoretical advantage of being 3 years younger and having less experience. He also finished one spot behind Nicolas Prodhomme who actually won a stage.

Lennard Kämna had become an exciting stage hunter (pre crash), as well as a great domestique, but when he rode for GC in the 2023 Giro he came 9th without finishing in the top 10 on any stages during the race. Pidcock can score stage top 10s due to being a better sprinter than Kämna, but like the German, I see him as someone who will get more out of GTs if he he doesn't focus on riding in the peloton every day.

 

[Squire]

Not anymore, no. It's been 3 years since he won on Alpe d'Huez, and time hasn't stood still since. But he is still only 26, so it's obviously not too late for him to prove me wrong, and I have no reason to root against him. It could already happen in this race, with a bit of luck, but after watching him in the Giro this year, I just don't trust the process.

My feeling about Pidcock is roughly the same as yours. After this race we'll have much more clarity. This Vuelta route couldn't have been more perfect for him judging by the characteristics he has shown so far, so if he doesn't threaten the podium here, he never will. In any case, I really doubt that he has the climbing level for really tough mountain stages a la the Tour, and so far it also doesn't look like he has the consistency or recovery to do it day in day out without bad days either. But I'll give him this race to start to prove me wrong.

 

[Oldman]

What decent TTs has he had in recent memory?

That's pretty much a limitation on GT's unless he has the luck to get all uphill TT's. It may be why he isn't more invested. He's winning well over many disciplines and deserves to be appreciated for that talent. I see him in the picture this Vuelta but don't know what kind of support he gets from his new team.
It may not matter to him as he is singularly skilled.