Tony Martin and GC

[Dutchsmurf]

Yes, of course this years route isn't suited for him. However, he has to show if he has the potential this year. If he makes it to the Top 10 this year, he shows that he can be a threat. If not, he should reconsider his focus.

He won't get top 10 most likely because he has to bring back breaks while the other top 10 favorites are relaxing.

 

[El Pistolero]

Contador won the Tour of 2007 while being 24 years old and it was heavily loaded with time trials.

It's safe to say he'll kick Tony Martin's *** every day in the Tour no matter how heavily loaded with time trials it is.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Contador won the Tour of 2007 while being 24 years old and it was heavily loaded with time trials.

It's safe to say he'll kick Tony Martin's *** every day in the Tour no matter how heavily loaded with time trials it is.

Ah, I heard a click click somewhere again.
You seem to be a genius.
Of course it's safe and easy to say, because we are talking about Contador here. The next outstanding and superior talent.

This thread is called Tony Martin GC, not Tony Martin will beat Alberto everywhere, or Tony Martin will win Tour.

We know that all riders except of yours beloved Alberto and Phil suck.
But please don't cry when Tony will win a Tour TT.

 

[Parrulo]

Contador won the Tour of 2007 while being 24 years old and it was heavily loaded with time trials.

It's safe to say he'll kick Tony Martin's *** every day in the Tour no matter how heavily loaded with time trials it is.

gesink, nibali, the bro's and a few other would also beat martin on any GT no matter how many iit k's the route has.

the time for 80 kg's guys to climb like lightweights pure climbers is thankfully gone

 

[El Pistolero]

Ah, I heard a click click somewhere again.
You seem to be a genius.
Of course it's safe and easy to say, because we are talking about Contador here. The next outstanding and superior talent.

This thread is called Tony Martin GC, not Tony Martin will beat Alberto everywhere, or Tony Martin will win Tour.

We know that all riders except of yours beloved Alberto and Phil suck.
But please don't cry when Tony will win a Tour TT.

Might want to read the posts above that post before you go into an automatic trolling mode.

 

[M Sport]

Others have probably said what I will say but I will add my 2 cents anyway.

I wouldn’t compare him to Cancellara other than the obvious he’s nearly as good at TT’s as what Fabian is. Fabian though would never in a million years be able to stick with Garate up Mont Ventoux like Martin did and in other races Martin has shown that he is a much better ‘big guy’ up the climbs than almost all others.

I think a more obvious comparison would be Wigans. In my opinion Martin is a way better TT’er and can be a better climber. I think they are roughly the same height and Wiggems is currently about 3kg lighter than Martin (Martin 75kg. Wigan 72kg). As Martin gets older his climbing will get better, If I was his trainer I wouldn’t be dropping him under 74kg that’s for sure.

The third thing is the GT parcours. In modern times we have seen the TT’s diminish away to almost nothing. It would only take one year of putting in an extra long TT and a medium length one and Martin will be a contender.

So to summarise, don’t hold your breath that he will be on the podium anytime soon but I certainly wouldn’t rule it out within the next few years.

What he said.

 

[Bavarianrider]

gesink, nibali, the bro's and a few other would also beat martin on any GT no matter how many iit k's the route has.

the time for 80 kg's guys to climb like lightweights pure climbers is thankfully gone

Well Tony isn't a 80kg guy. He's roughly 75kg, with little fat, but with a little more muscles then your usual climber.
Cycling is about Watt/Kilo. If a 60 Kilo guy cranks out 6.7Watt/Kilo it isn't less suspicious then a 75 Kilo guy doing the same.

 

[theyoungest]

Well Tony isn't a 80kg guy. He's roughly 75kg, with little fat, but with a little more muscles then your usual climber.
Cycling is about Watt/Kilo. If a 60 Kilo guy cranks out 6.7Watt/Kilo it isn't less suspicious then a 75 Kilo guy doing the same.

Did you post his picture to show that a totally out of form Contador and the fearsome climber Stephen Cummings can keep up with him?

 

[Bondii]

I think Tony is strong enough to make a top10 in Tour.
He was good in the first 2 weeks in 2009. In the third week he had 2 bad days and after he was top 10 in ITT and 2. at Mont Ventoux's stage and he only was 23.
Now he is 25 and very decided. He will go to the Tour as a P-N winner.
I know he will not win this but good enough to be in the 5-10 place.

Who would have thought before Vuelta that Velits will be in the overall's podium?

 

[Parrulo]

I think Tony is strong enough to make a top10 in Tour.
He was good in the first 2 weeks in 2009. In the third week he had 2 bad days and after he was top 10 in ITT and 2. at Mont Ventoux's stage from a breakaway of 2 with a fifth tier climber and he only was 23.
Now he is 25 and very decided. He will go to the Tour as a P-N winner.
I know he will not win this but good enough to be in the 5-10 place.

Who would have thought before Vuelta that Velits will be in the overall's podium?

fixed that for you

from peter velits wikipedia page (his home country one)
Längd 1,81 m
Vikt 63 kg

good comparison you made . . . only 10 kg lighter

 

[Bavarianrider]

fixed that for you

from peter velits wikipedia page (his home country one)
Längd 1,81 m
Vikt 63 kg

good comparison you made . . . only 20 kg lighter

75-63 is not 20

Why is Tony getting so much hate on this forum?

 

[Bondii]

fixed that for you

from peter velits wikipedia page (his home country one)
Längd 1,81 m
Vikt 63 kg

good comparison you made . . . only 20 kg lighter

Peter Velits is 1,82 m and 65 kg, just for the sake of accuracy.( From his site)

Who is 20 kg lighter?

 

[Bavarianrider]

fixed that for you

from peter velits wikipedia page (his home country one)
Längd 1,81 m
Vikt 63 kg

good comparison you made . . . only 20 kg lighter

75-63 is not 20

Why is Tony getting so much hate on this forum?

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

By the way, couldn't it also be Tony Martin is simply not a rider for 3 weeks?

He has yet to shown consistency over a 3-week period. He might be an awesome force his whole career in 1-week rounds, but if he can't consistently climb with the best in a 3-week tour he is never going to achieve much in GT's...

We don't know yet, because he hasn't really tried to go for a GT for 100%... so this year will be interesting.

 

[Parrulo]

it was a typo, as unbelievable as it may sound i know how to add numbers and all that

saw it now while checking the thread again

still i agree with D_T

also even if it is only roughly 10kg's it still is a lot of weight to make them a good comparison

 

[The Hitch]

Dont Bigger guys have a slight advantage in that the bike constitutes a smaller percentage of their total weight than the smaller guys?

 

[Bavarianrider]

Dont Bigger guys have a slight advantage in that the bike constitutes a smaller percentage of their total weight than the smaller guys?

Not only this. Actually, from an pure phsilogical perspective they even have an advantage in climbs, as they have to produce less Watt/Kilo as smaller riders to ride the same pace. The flatter the bigger this advantage is obviusly.

 

[Parrulo]

Not only this. Actually, from an pure phsilogical perspective they even have an advantage in climbs, as they have to produce less Watt/Kilo as smaller riders to ride the same pace. The flatter the bigger this advantage is obviusly.

if its flat it isn't a climb. i doubt we will ever see a GT made of 4th category climbs

 

[Bavarianrider]

On a 10% mountain to ride 18km/h (cwA 0.35, density 1.14kg/m^3, normal road, bike+clothe 8kg)

a 75 KG rider needs 6,16 Watt/Kilo

a 60 KG rider needs 6,4 Watt/Kilo

0n a 5% mountain to ride 25km/h

a 75 KG rider needs 5.21 Watt/Kilo

a 60 KG rider needs 5.58 Watt/Kilo

In a flat time trail (cwA 0.2) to ride 50km/h

a 75 Kilo rider needs 5.94 Watt/Kilo

a 60 Kilo rider needs 7.2 Watt Kilo

Mathematics guys

 

[theyoungest]

On a 10% mountain to ride 18km/h (cwA 0.35, density 1.14kg/m^3, normal road, bike+clothe 8kg)

a 75 KG rider needs 6,16 Watt/Kilo

a 60 KG rider needs 6,4 Watt/Kilo

0n a 5% mountain to ride 25km/h

a 75 KG rider needs 5.21 Watt/Kilo

a 60 KG rider needs 5.58 Watt/Kilo

In a flat time trail (cwA 0.2) to ride 50km/h

a 75 Kilo rider needs 5.94 Watt/Kilo

a 60 Kilo rider needs 7.2 Watt Kilo

Mathematics guys

Tell that to Bradley Wiggins. I don't remember him trying to gain weight in his Tour campaign.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yes, but it's sustaining those kilos. Gravity comes into effect.

Your argument displays logic, but it is in effect arguing the inaccurate. Otherwise you'd see André Greipel outclimbing José Rujano. Why are the light guys usually better climbers? Magic? The effect of increasing weight multiplies gravity's effect on you. Hence why a real life King Kong could never exist - a gorilla that size would collapse onto itself and be unable to stand.

The other thing is getting to that peak wattage. A heavier rider displays more inertia, which means that a lighter rider can accelerate more quickly than a heavier rider. Riding uphill, momentum (which is something a heavier rider has in their favour) is far less of a factor. Plus you have the increased drag factor in larger riders; something that is usually compensated for and more in a flat time trial or descent (again, gravity), but is harder to compromise in an ascent.

There isn't any hating on Tony Martin. He could well turn into a decent top 10 GT rider à la Leipheimer, Kirchen, Wiggins et al. He's fearsome over one week, because his ITT is so strong he can pull out a lead and stay with all but the best on the climbs. But three week GTs have longer climbs. And more of them.

Martin also suffers in the same way as most GT contenders in his vein (the likes of Evans, though Evans is a better climber and weaker TTer than Martin) in that the GT best suited to his skills is the Tour; the Vuelta and Giro both feature steeper climbs and a climb-TT balance more weighted in favour of the climber than the Tour - plus the types of climbs in the Tour are more regular and gradual which allows the TT-focused rider to hold on longer. Unfortunately, the Tour is also where absolutely everybody comes out to play.

The other problem of course, as already mentioned, is that short of holding the maillot jaune two days from the end of the race, NOTHING gets you out of sprint train duties at HTC (see Velits in the Vuelta), which means he'll be expending needless energy for the green jersey while the other GC candidates are chilling.

 

[Parrulo]

On a 10% mountain to ride 18km/h (cwA 0.35, density 1.14kg/m^3, normal road, bike+clothe 8kg)

a 75 KG rider needs 6,16 Watt/Kilo

a 60 KG rider needs 6,4 Watt/Kilo

0n a 5% mountain to ride 25km/h

a 75 KG rider needs 5.21 Watt/Kilo

a 60 KG rider needs 5.58 Watt/Kilo

In a flat time trail (cwA 0.2) to ride 50km/h

a 75 Kilo rider needs 5.94 Watt/Kilo

a 60 Kilo rider needs 7.2 Watt Kilo

Mathematics guys

gratz you know maths, yet you lack any kind of knowledge on the most basics concepts of physics

 

[Sophistic]

Its correct that at a 10% climb a 75kg guy beats a 65kg with the same watts/kg output but a 65kg has more likely a higher watts/kg output as higher weight doesnt go hand in hand with a higher wattage at lactic threshold. If a 180cm/70kg guy would add 5kg of (muscle)mass he would certainly have a higher wattage at lactic threshold (and be faster at a flat ITT) but have a lower watts/kg ratio as his wattage is unlikely to increase at the same rate as his weight.

 

[Bavarianrider]

No guys, this is a fact. By physics and mathematics being heavier is actually an advatage as long as the gradient isn't 25%+.

However, there is the big if of course.
In theory more weight is more power. However, in reality it isn't so easy to transform mass into power. Therefore, of course on a mountain 5 Kilos of fat won't make you faster obviously. However, if you can actually use the weight for power production (muscles) it'll make you faster. Of course the more muscles/weight the more oxygen you need.
So of course for 90% of the riders in reality less weight is an advantage in the mountains. However, it is nevertheless inacurate to say that more weight is always a disadvantage. Therefore it is very unfair to suggest that a 70 Kilo rider who keeps up with the lighweights must be especially juiced. But if riders have the right body physics, 10 Kilos more then the lighweigts doesn't have to be a disadvantage.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

But the problem of inertia still applies - hence why you find the heavier riders tend to be more tempo-grinders and not the Sella/Contador/Rujano dynamic change of pace climbers.

You will notice in mountain TTs that sometimes heavier riders do unexpectedly well because of the ability to retain a high power output, but in a race situation with changes of pace and attacks, this disadvantages them, as the ability to change pace very quickly is key to finding separation; a heavier rider would need to outlast people by setting a tempo they cannot follow, like Ivan Basso (not that he's a heavy rider, just an example of the type of climber you would need). Note how Cancellara was comfortably able to ride up to Serfaus and Crans Montana in 2009, or how riders like Wiggins were able to stay with the big guns as long as they rode tempo, but when the attacks came in, they fell away.