Top 10 Most Reckless Dopers

[luckyboy]

Would be nice if we got some stories rather than just names posted. Hervé, for example.

I'm interested as well. The stories about having to wake during the night are there and I do not doubt their credibility, but in some morbid sense I'd like to read a bit more.

Doubt there are many official stories about, and certainly more than 9 guys would've had to wake up during the night in the 90s.

 

[frenchfry]

Would be nice if we got some stories rather than just names posted. Hervé, for example.



Doubt there are many official stories about, and certainly more than 9 guys would've had to wake up during the night in the 90s.

I saw an interview with Pascal Hervé and have never seen anyone so unrepentant about doping. He said outright that he would do anything to optimise his revenues from cycling and he was almost proud about it. I have also seen/heard stories about how he would ingest a maximum of dope and that this is how he managed to pass from amateur to pro at a relatively late age (29 I believe), but have no direct references on hand. If I come across any I will be sure to post them.

 

[hrotha]

I heard that Willy Voet said Hervé came up to him upon joining Festina and said "Look, I'm not young anymore. I want to make as much money as I can from cycling, and I don't have much time, so hit me with everything you got." Or something. Honestly I've never read the primary source for that story.

 

[doolols]

I'm interested as well. The stories about having to wake during the night are there and I do not doubt their credibility, but in some morbid sense I'd like to read a bit more.

I was intrigued too. A quick search revealed

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/performanceenhancingdrugs/a/EPO.htm

Yes, EPO has its dangers. EPO injections thicken the blood, which increases the strain on the heart. This is particularly dangerous when the heart rate slows down, such as during sleep. The increased thickness, or viscosity, of the blood increases the risk of blood clots, heart attacks, and strokes. According to the book "The death of Marco Pantani" by Matt Rendell, some cyclists reportedly set an alarm each night to wake up and cycle on a trainer for ten minutes to jump-start their circulation and reduce the possible health risks of using EPO.

 

[The Hitch]

I was intrigued too. A quick search revealed

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/performanceenhancingdrugs/a/EPO.htm

In an indurain doping question mark thread from 1 or 2 years ago, some poster said that there were reports Big Mig would wake up during the middle of the night, every night and walk around for a few minutes.

It was suggested that the thickness of blood after raising hematocrit, could have been a reason for this.

Very vague I know, but I remember reading it here.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Although not a cyclist, Johann Mühlegg in 2002 olympics has got to be the most extreme doper of all time. The guy was so filled with up with steroids and whatnot that one could basically see that the guy was doped just by taking a quick glance on his face. His tactic was as dumb as it was effective - hit the front immediately with his ridiculously ugly style and drop the entire field while they were gasping for air while being in his slipstream. That didn't stop him from dropping them all on the flat without even accelerating. Then he went on to win by 3 minutes, which is a downright ridiculous gap for a 30km mass-start. Particularly for a guy who before this race was very average.

I mean, seriously, his technique was so horrible that its effectiveness was about comparable to the effectiveness of a cyclist riding on a tricycle vs one on a road bike. Yet it's not like everyone behind him was clean, because half of them have been caught too, so I wonder what on earth Mühlegg took that day...

Mühlegg wasn't juiced more then the many others at the top.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Elofsson tried to follow, which he now says was the stupidest thing he ever did. Many (including Elofsson himself) believe that that practically ended his career.

Sorry but what a load of crap. As if Elofson was clean.
Back in in the 90es till Turin no one had a chance at winning anything in Cross Country skiing without being juiced. Thats a fact.
Maybe Mühlegg just responded better to it then others.
But it's not like Mühlegg was coming out of nowwehere. He had shown dominate performances way before Salt Lake City.
Also, winning by 1:30 or so is nothing outstanding over 30km Cross Country skiing. Look at the results of the 90es. Gaps like that a normal.
In womans cross country skiing they are normal till this very day.
The 30km in Salt like were one of the first mass start races at a major championchip. And basically it was run like an individual start.
Don't get me wrong, Mühlegg certainly was a crazy guy, but guys like Elofosn or the Norwegians really have no business in complainin at all.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Sorry but what a load of crap. As if Elofson was clean.
Back in in the 90es till Turin no one had a chance at winning anything in Cross Country skiing without being juiced. Thats a fact.
Maybe Mühlegg just responded better to it then others.
But it's not like Mühlegg was coming out of nowwehere. He had shown dominate performances way before Salt Lake City.
Also, winning by 1:30 or so is nothing outstanding over 30km Cross Country skiing. Look at the results of the 90es. Gaps like that a normal.
In womans cross country skiing they are normal till this very day.
The 30km in Salt like were one of the first mass start races at a major championchip. And basically it was run like an individual start.
Don't get me wrong, Mühlegg certainly was a crazy guy, but guys like Elofosn or the Norwegians really have no business in complainin at all.

Mühlegg was on stuff so new it wasn't even illegal at the time. Mühlegg had some horrible technique and had been a fair-to-middling XC skier when representing Germany. He had some good results, but didn't have any WC wins until after switching to Spanish citizenship at 29. His best results were all over 2001-2, though one of his WC medals in 2001 was after another skier was DQed for a positive too. Now, there's a good chance a lot of that was psychological, given all the issues he had with the German ski federation, and them with him, but the guy was beyond up to his eyeballs in those Olympics. The other guys weren't clean, but he was ridiculous. It was like Riccò in the 2008 Tour; sure the other guys were doped up too, but he was way above and beyond.

 

[thehog]

Mühlegg was on stuff so new it wasn't even illegal at the time. Mühlegg had some horrible technique and had been a fair-to-middling XC skier when representing Germany. He had some good results, but didn't have any WC wins until after switching to Spanish citizenship at 29. His best results were all over 2001-2, though one of his WC medals in 2001 was after another skier was DQed for a positive too. Now, there's a good chance a lot of that was psychological, given all the issues he had with the German ski federation, and them with him, but the guy was beyond up to his eyeballs in those Olympics. The other guys weren't clean, but he was ridiculous. It was like Riccò in the 2008 Tour; sure the other guys were doped up too, but he was way above and beyond.

The funniest part of 2002 was that Mühlegg style was so bad he'd regularly trip himself up on his own skis and fall over! And still managed to win!

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Mühlegg wasn't juiced more then the many others at the top.

mybe not, but it the juice he used sure as hell worked

 

[Walkman]

Sorry but what a load of crap. As if Elofson was clean.
Back in in the 90es till Turin no one had a chance at winning anything in Cross Country skiing without being juiced. Thats a fact.
Maybe Mühlegg just responded better to it then others.
But it's not like Mühlegg was coming out of nowwehere. He had shown dominate performances way before Salt Lake City.
Also, winning by 1:30 or so is nothing outstanding over 30km Cross Country skiing. Look at the results of the 90es. Gaps like that a normal.
In womans cross country skiing they are normal till this very day.
The 30km in Salt like were one of the first mass start races at a major championchip. And basically it was run like an individual start.
Don't get me wrong, Mühlegg certainly was a crazy guy, but guys like Elofosn or the Norwegians really have no business in complainin at all.

And you know this because...?

If anything this is, to put it in your own words:

Sorry but what a load of crap.

I never thought I'd see someone defending Mühlegg. The guy is probably one of, if not the, most doped up athlete in sports history.

 

[hwyrngr]

I heard that Willy Voet said Hervé came up to him upon joining Festina and said "Look, I'm not young anymore. I want to make as much money as I can from cycling, and I don't have much time, so hit me with everything you got." Or something. Honestly I've never read the primary source for that story.

It was written in Voet's book.

 

[craig1985]

Can we go into baseball here? I mean I'm pretty sure those guys don't care as the chance to make millions upon millions in the MLB or slugging it out in the Minors, it can be a pretty easy choice to make. I can name plenty of T&F guys as well.

Back on cycling, how about a name like (and the late) José María Jiménez?

 

[Bavarianrider]

Mühlegg was on stuff so new it wasn't even illegal at the time. Mühlegg had some horrible technique and had been a fair-to-middling XC skier when representing Germany. He had some good results, but didn't have any WC wins until after switching to Spanish citizenship at 29. His best results were all over 2001-2, though one of his WC medals in 2001 was after another skier was DQed for a positive too. Now, there's a good chance a lot of that was psychological, given all the issues he had with the German ski federation, and them with him, but the guy was beyond up to his eyeballs in those Olympics. The other guys weren't clean, but he was ridiculous. It was like Riccò in the 2008 Tour; sure the other guys were doped up too, but he was way above and beyond.

Surely Mühlegg started jucing when he became a Spaniard.
But why do you think Germans all of a sudden became a Cross Country powerhouse after the 2000s while they where mediocere in the 1990es? Simply because they started doing Epo and blood doping later then the Norwegians, Swedish or Italiens. Same is true for Mühlegg.
Mühlegg actually has had some decent results in the 90es when he was more or less clean. Of course when he started jucing he took a huge step.
But the idea that Mühlegg was jucing a lot more the the rest of the world class is just ridicilous and niot based by any facts at all.
There's always a need for a devil, and Mühlegg is the easy victim. A guy like Daehlie is a legend, Mühlegg gets doomed. Well that's the way it is, but if you have a little bit of an inside view you no how ricilous this is.
Mühlegg was crazy no doubt, but the guy also was a machine.
I remember back in 99 or 2000, i was on a competition with my school team in Rupholding. We stayed in some sort of sports school which had a gym in the beasement.
Coincidently Mühlegg was there at the time for training. And boy, never ever have i seen anybody work so hard in my life. He was doing drills on the "russian machine". That's a training tool for cross country skiers to train your arms and endurance. The work ethic this guy had was just crazy, as well as his power.
It's not like Mühlegg was a scrub that became a powerhouse all of a sudden, that's certainly not the way it was. Mühlegg simply did what they all did back then.
The most funny thing is this Elefson story. If Mühlegg ruined Elofsons career, how come he became world champion in 2003?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The story ran that Elofsson was never the same guy again. Maybe physically he was but psychologically he wasn't, or vice versa. It's like the thing with Roy Keane and Alf Inge Håland; Håland played the next week, but the complications from that tackle eventually ended his career. It wasn't sudden, but he never overcame the injuries sustained.

Mühlegg wasn't "no worse than the others". Come off it. If Elofsson and everybody were doping too, and Mühlegg had been decent but not great until not too long before then, what was it that suddenly made him start taking minutes out of the field? The Holy Water he used to carry around in case the German team bosses tried to poison him? A huge Spanish budget for ski wax technicians? Great skiing technique?

 

[Bavarianrider]

The story ran that Elofsson was never the same guy again. Maybe physically he was but psychologically he wasn't, or vice versa. It's like the thing with Roy Keane and Alf Inge Håland; Håland played the next week, but the complications from that tackle eventually ended his career. It wasn't sudden, but he never overcame the injuries sustained.

Mühlegg wasn't "no worse than the others". Come off it. If Elofsson and everybody were doping too, and Mühlegg had been decent but not great until not too long before then, what was it that suddenly made him start taking minutes out of the field? The Holy Water he used to carry around in case the German team bosses tried to poison him? A huge Spanish budget for ski wax technicians? Great skiing technique?

Again, there was no use of Epo or blood doping in the German team in the 1990es. Or at least it wasn't state of the art.
When Mühlegg became a spaniard he got the benifits of the spanish doping system closing the gaps to the rest of the world class. Hence he won the world cup in 2000 and dominated the 50km at Lahti for example.
You shouldn't forget that Mühleg one the 30km by 2 minutes, but as a pointed out, at that time that was't an totally outstanding gap over such a distance. You shouldn't also forget that he won the 50 km an dthe pursuit by much smaller gaps.
If you doom Mühlegg, then you have to doom everywhen of the Epo eras who won anything. But picking out Mühlegg and giving everyone else a pass is just not right

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Everybody in the GC mix was doping in the '96 Tour de France, but Bjarne Riis was doping to preposterous levels, and this saw him to victory.

Everybody in the medal mix was doping in the '02 Winter Olympic XC, but Johann Mühlegg was doping to preposterous levels, and this saw him to victory.

 

[Walkman]

Watching a video of that race, Elofsson packed after one lap when Meuhlegg was miles in front - did Elofsson ever come out and say why he retired from that race?

Yes, he said he started feeling dizzy and started to losse control of his body, a result of lack of oxygen in his brain bacause of him going over his limits for too long.

The story is that that day damaged his heart muscle

Not according to himself. He said it was the cells in his body that was damaged.

 

[Havetts]

Everybody in the GC mix was doping in the '96 Tour de France, but Bjarne Riis was doping to preposterous levels, and this saw him to victory.

Everybody in the medal mix was doping in the '02 Winter Olympic XC, but Johann Mühlegg was doping to preposterous levels, and this saw him to victory.

I must say that people like Ricco and Riis who have already been mentioned alot are kind the "creme-de-la-creme" of reckless doping that we know of. I feel like alot of the "dope-(ab)users" are doing it on a very secure basis with a lot of controlling, not in a reckless way.

 

[crapna]

I never thought I'd see someone defending Mühlegg. The guy is probably one of, if not the, most doped up athlete in sports history.

Yes, and he also was one of the greatest athletes in the world. Just watch his superb efforts in SLC where he not only won the races but also proved how ridiculous mass start races really are. Those are similar kind of classics in sports history to Marco Pantani's climbs on his glory days.

 

[meat puppet]

FWIW, Elofsson had relatively low blood values, ie. Hb below 160 during WCs if I remember correctly (it was posted on this thread actually). The official limit is 175 for starters. Probably he doped to an extent too, but not up to the gills. And to me, combined with the most eloquent skate skiing technique I have ever seen, it makes a world of difference.

I mean if SLC 2002 Muhlegg is considered just another doper, we might as well ditch competitions altogether and have races decided in the lab. The best oxygen vector wins.

Also this is a Finn praising a Swede, mind.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yes, and he also was one of the greatest athletes in the world. Just watch his superb efforts in SLC where he not only won the races but also proved how ridiculous mass start races really are. Those are similar kind of classics in sports history to Marco Pantani's climbs on his glory days.

More Bjarne Riis on Hautacam; Pantani was always a great climber. Mühlegg had always been a pretty decent skier, but his technique was horrible and his results had been decent but not earthshattering; then in his early 30s he suddenly became this crazily good guy who had so much energy he could afford to waste a ton of it with his awful technique and still put minutes into people. It was a bit like if Voeckler, rather than coming fourth, had won the Tour by ten minutes.

 

[Martinello]

Strange that people keep on naming the Festina squad as being the worst dopers of the 90's.
Surely, they had rather good results with Dufaux/Virenque/Brochard and to some extent Zulle (who never really reached his ONCE-levels).
Although Voet might have an interest in describing himself and Rijckaert as the good samaritans regarding the doping/health issues at the team, his accounts describes the Festina programme as organized but also very tight. Rijckaert was rumoured to nearly ban cortico steroids and to keep his riders at hcts in lower 50's pre 1997. The last thing could explain the relative success of the Festina squad in 1997 after the imposure of the 50% hct limit in March 1997.

So bottom line, Festina riders and management were, according to the sources, one of the cleaner teams of the era. They just had the bad luck to be the major scapegoat. Nobody seem to remember Cees Prims troops being taken away by police cars in the 1997 tour.....

 

[DirtyWorks]

So bottom line, Festina riders and management were, according to the sources, one of the cleaner teams of the era. They just had the bad luck to be the major scapegoat. Nobody seem to remember Cees Prims troops being taken away by police cars in the 1997 tour.....

This has been my interpretation of the events of the era. Others may disagree, but IMHO, Festina was the one that finally got caught and there were very likely much worse.

 

[BroDeal]

Everybody in the GC mix was doping in the '96 Tour de France, but Bjarne Riis was doping to preposterous levels, and this saw him to victory.

Everybody in the medal mix was doping in the '02 Winter Olympic XC, but Johann Mühlegg was doping to preposterous levels, and this saw him to victory.

If we are just naming those that gained the most from doping then Armstrong is at the top of the heap.

As far as reckless goes, I would put people like Gianetti at the top.