Top 10 Most Reckless Dopers

[Kwibus]

This is a fun thread. Keep it going

 

[hrotha]

Herve's shenanigans went on at Polti though.

 

[crapna]

More Bjarne Riis on Hautacam; Pantani was always a great climber. Mühlegg had always been a pretty decent skier, but his technique was horrible and his results had been decent but not earthshattering; then in his early 30s he suddenly became this crazily good guy who had so much energy he could afford to waste a ton of it with his awful technique and still put minutes into people. It was a bit like if Voeckler, rather than coming fourth, had won the Tour by ten minutes.

Was just admiring efforts of those two excellent athletes, not calculating which one of them gained more advantage by doping.

 

[Martinello]

Jaja in 1995 - probably wasn't totally reckless but he surely hit it spot on that year.
Vuelta (including mountains and points), MSR, Fleche Wallone, Paris-Nice, 4th in the tour + points.

What ever he was on that year, especially in the vuelta (albeit helped by a very dominant ONCE team), surely was ahead of its' time.

 

[Martinello]

Other candidates:

Dario Frigo (busted twice in police raids in 2001 and 2005, also withdrew from P-R one year due to gastro-enteritis, although he'd been riding like a motorcycle all week)

Michael Rasmussen (no explanation needed)

Raimondas Rumsas (or perharps his mother-in-law)

Genevive Jeanson (doping since 16 years old....phew)

Santiago Perez (doped to the eyeballs in 2004 - will he be back on BMC?)

 

[BrentonOfTheNorth]

I'd think of Riis and Pantani as reckless, in the sense of risking their lives by having hematocrits in the mid 60s.
Though was Pantani in the 60s after 1996? How much can a saline drip drop hematocrit? I thought Voet implied it could only be dropped a few percentage points... so Festina did better once the 50% rule was in place starting in 1997, as they took less risk by not going over 54% (IIRC)

 

[Bavarianrider]

I think names like Marit Björgen or Justina Kowaltschik have to be mentioned as well.
I mean there really can't be any doubts that they are on steroids.

 

[The Hitch]

I think names like Marit Björgen or Justina Kowaltschik have to be mentioned as well.
I mean there really can't be any doubts that they are on steroids.

The title is "reckless dopers" not "dopers".

There cant be any doubt about the entire Barca team being dopers, does that qualify them for the list of top 10 most reckless dopers?

 

[Bavarianrider]

The title is "reckless dopers" not "dopers".

There cant be any doubt about the entire Barca team being dopers, does that qualify them for the list of top 10 most reckless dopers?

In my opionion, if woman are looking like men, i think that's reckless.

 

[Cloxxki]

In my opionion, if woman are looking like men, i think that's reckless.

Some women are like that even without sports. Bjoergen is a bit extreme (for 2011, this is not the 80's with unlimited anabolics), looking like a female body builder yet being one of the most aerobic athletes of all sports. If she ever loses time on anyone uphill, it's to a slight build high turnover type who's relatively slow everywhere else.
Her doping I greatly suspect, but not that its reckless. She's reckless in the amount of time she puts into second best though, it's bad for her own credibility, and that of the sport. She just makes second best look like a more true winner.
Kowalckzyk at least is a unique character. Displayed to have a unique aerobic capacity early on, while getting on skis really late for someone to reach her level. A true natural. yes, I've heard bad stories of Polish atletes, but hey, her skis seem to be more than average. It's not JUST her crazy power getting the wins. Yesterday in teh TdS prologue, she won it by skiing smarter. Saved some on the big uphill to start the downhill fast as possible, and have fresh legs for the turns that were otherwise sure to get her in trouble. She did post a very fast downhill speed, and she did step the turn well. Bjoergen was stronger, IMO more doped, but less tactical.

 

[roundabout]

Kowalczyk does have a + test to her name though. Admittedly, it wasn't much of a substance and at an event that to me isn't really worth doping for.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Doper or not, we're talking people who were reckless, going above and beyond the call of doping duty. Tammy Thomas is a woman who went too far. Justyna Kowalczyk and Marit Bjørgen, whilst likely doping, are still women. Clearly massively muscular women, but still women nonetheless. Unless we set a rule that only relatively waifish women can be pro skiers, and then watch Therese Johaug win every title for fifteen years.

 

[roundabout]

While Belmondo is a bit of an extreme example as she always seemed on a smaller side skiers of old did use to look more like her than the current elite.

http://www.skiroll.it/2003/sportful/stefaniaBelmondo2000.jpg

Probably because of the sprints etc but they do seem bigger now.

 

[Bavarianrider]

While Belmondo is a bit of an extreme example as she always seemed on a smaller side skiers of old did use to look more like her than the current elite.

http://www.skiroll.it/2003/sportful/stefaniaBelmondo2000.jpg

Probably because of the sprints etc but they do seem bigger now.

Well there are still skiers who look like Belmondo today.
I agree that they got a bit bigger in general, but not by that much.
Björgen, Kalla, Kowaltschuk or Majdic are more exceptions the the rule if you look at the whole field.
But frankly they almost remind me of the eastern european "ladies" of the 70es and 80es. Pretty disgusting and obvious cases of extrem doping if you ask me.

 

[Kwibus]

Marit Bjorgen... oh well.. that's..erm.. well..err..

The pictures of Justyna Kowalczyk weren't strange at all. Atleast not the ones I just watched.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Marit Bjorgen... oh well.. that's..erm.. well..err..

The pictures of Justyna Kowalczyk weren't strange at all. Atleast not the ones I just watched.

The face is even more telling then the body imo.
Those proportions are just unreal and look very manlike, huge indication for a massive use of male steroids. For me that's a pretty reckless type of doping and a huge huge unsportsmanship behavior towards the rest of the field.

Compare her to Evi Sachenbacher, for example. We all know that she was surely not clean in the oast, but at least her body looks quiet normal and not juiced like the one of Björgen. And Sachenbacher can be represantative for a good portion of the womans field.

Or compare Björgen to Neuner, who has a quiet atlethtic body herself.
But still, Björgen is a totally different level while Neuner still looks more naturally built.

 

[gustienordic]

The face is even more telling then the body imo.
Those proportions are just unreal and look very manlike, huge indication for a massive use of male steroids. For me that's a pretty reckless type of doping and a huge huge unsportsmanship behavior towards the rest of the field.

Compare her to Evi Sachenbacher, for example. We all know that she was surely not clean in the oast, but at least her body looks quiet normal and not juiced like the one of Björgen. And Sachenbacher can be represantative for a good portion of the womans field.

Or compare Björgen to Neuner, who has a quiet atlethtic body herself.
But still, Björgen is a totally different level while Neuner still looks more naturally built.

How often does Bjorgen get tested? She must get tested all the time, especially since she wins all the time. Theres no way she is just THAT good at masking.

Completely unrelated, but how does someone like Johaug even compete with Bjorgen or Justina? they are twice her size.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Well hormone medication are still not that easy to detect.
IT's more a question of if you are willing to take them and to what extend.
Woman taking male hormons can suffer quiet severe side effects.

Johaug benifits of her very low body weight, meaning she has to use much less power to ride at a certain pace. Obviously she is one of her kind with her unique high cadence type of running style.

But you are right it's pretty unfair that girls like her have to go against those half males like Björgen.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Johaug is great uphill, high tempo, on a lot of the flat power drags she'll often get outmuscled by the power girls though.

Comparing to biathlon is always dangerous however, as the training is different; the biathlon girls don't need to train for classic technique, plus they will spend time doing comparatively non-physical shooting training. Off the top of my head I can't think of any freakishly muscular female biathletes; even the quickest skiers like Neuner, Gößner, Mäkäräinen and Domracheva have pretty much par-for-the-course athletic bodies, Neuner being perhaps the biggest powerhouse of them...

That doesn't mean they aren't doping, of course. Physical characteristics are always a hard one to judge unless it gets all Tammy Thomas on us.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Johaug is great uphill, high tempo, on a lot of the flat power drags she'll often get outmuscled by the power girls though.

Comparing to biathlon is always dangerous however, as the training is different; the biathlon girls don't need to train for classic technique, plus they will spend time doing comparatively non-physical shooting training. Off the top of my head I can't think of any freakishly muscular female biathletes; even the quickest skiers like Neuner, Gößner, Mäkäräinen and Domracheva have pretty much par-for-the-course athletic bodies, Neuner being perhaps the biggest powerhouse of them...

That doesn't mean they aren't doping, of course. Physical characteristics are always a hard one to judge unless it gets all Tammy Thomas on us.

Holy ****

 

[meat puppet]

Pardon my French, but I sense a bit uneasy sexist subtext at play here, and moreover one that introduces a double standard.

Thing is: if manly levels of performance are demanded of top sportswomen, then manly contenders we are eventually bound to get, because every top athlete wants an edge over the others. Logic dictates this.

I mean to me Evi and Lena are obviously beautiful women and apparently they fill a bikini very well. However, the implication in the discussion appears to be that Marit does not and somehow this alone constitutes a fault or violation on her part. To me the trouble is that through an illegitimate resort to a judgement that draws heavily from aesthetic preferences, and moreover does not add add any conclusive knowledge about the matter at hand, this mere "untruth of appearances" embodied in the pictures somehow justifies the suggestion that Björgen and the like are THE dirtiest.

Such preferences are probably unavoidable as long as we are sexual beings, but if conclusions about doping practices are derived through them in a rather unmediated manner, IMO this amounts to a category mistake.

For all we know the pretty girls might be on a just as extensive programme that simply targets different physiological subsystems / variables and thus produces a different set of visible physiological changes; which, in turn, either are more subtle at the level of the appearances or fit better into our normative category of a woman or a womanly athlete.

Let the lab decide, I say, even if the initial "untruth of appearances" captured in the pictures leaves a bit bitter taste in our mouths. Or should I say let the FIS excecutive board meetings decide.

As for Johaug, I think her game consists solely of the fact that she has been able to dangle this side of the anorexia borderline, which provides her the best w/kg ratio among women skiers. As much as I like her skiing, the perception is always clouded by this obverse side of buffing up: even muscle mass considered to constitute an excess is shedded. I bet this is unhealthy, even as unhealthy as the buffing up. But are we as eager to pass judgement upon sportswomen choosing this strategy?

Just an observation. Not to insult anyone, and especially not to ride a high horse - I am the first to admit that many women athletes are pretty and this probably clouds my judgement.

 

[doolols]

Pardon my French, but I sense a bit uneasy sexist subtext at play here, and moreover one that introduces a double standard. <snip> However, the implication in the discussion appears to be that Marit does not and somehow this alone constitutes a fault or violation on her part.

I don't think so. The gender-specific posts on this thread are highlighting that steroid abuse is more obvious amongst female athletes.

 

[Bavarianrider]

I would like to ad something to the Elofson-Mühlegg discussion.

In 2001 in Lahti Eloffson won the pursuit in front of Mühlegg, he also won the 15km.
In the 50km Mühlegg destroyed everybody. Including Elofson. He was dominating the same way as he did in 2002 in the 30km.

So here comes my logical problem. If somebody claims that Mühlegg was juiced way more then the rest of the field, then we must come to the conclusion that he must have been juiced like that in 2001 too.
But know, how was Elofson able to beat him in the pursuit then, if he was so much cleaner then Mühlegg?

 

[Walkman]

I would like to ad something to the Elofson-Mühlegg discussion.

In 2001 in Lahti Eloffson won the pursuit in front of Mühlegg, he also won the 15km.
In the 50km Mühlegg destroyed everybody. Including Elofson. He was dominating the same way as he did in 2002 in the 30km.

So here comes my logical problem. If somebody claims that Mühlegg was juiced way more then the rest of the field, then we must come to the conclusion that he must have been juiced like that in 2001 too.
But know, how was Elofson able to beat him in the pursuit then, if he was so much cleaner then Mühlegg?

Is that a serious question?! You don't believe a clean athlete ever can beat a doped athlete?

 

[Bavarianrider]

Is that a serious question?! You don't believe a clean athlete ever can beat a doped athlete?

He can beat a doped ahtlete, but he can't beat a juiced to the max world class powerhouse.
Do you believe a clean Contador could beat a 2007 like juiced Rasmussen? Seriously?