Top 5 GT Riders: Order & Discussion

[Netserk]

The fact Purito reached the podium in all GT's.
The fact he reached the podium of the Tour, the biggest race of the world.
The fact Uran didn't reaced the podium of the Tour, the biggest race of the world.
The fact Uran reached the podium of two Giro's, where the competition was not as strong as in the Tour 2013 and Vuelta 2012.
The fact Uran till nowadays never showed he can follow and drop the best GT'er at this moment in the mountains: Chris Froome.

Etcetera

I said Uran is better than Purito. You tell me I should stay to the facts. Which facts did I not stay to?

I am aware that Purito has podiumed all GTs.
I am aware that Purito has podiumed the Tour (kinda pointless to point out after the first fact in your list).
I am also aware that Uran hasn't podiumed the Tour.
I am also aware of the fact that Uran has podiumed two Giri.
I am also aware that Uran isn't a better climber than Froome.

So?

Uran is still a better GT rider than Purito.

 

[ILovecycling]

Netserk,Arredondo explain your 'facts' in one post or stop your pointless discussion here.There is also pm for personal stuff if you wanna talk like this all day long.

 

[Arredondo]

I said Uran is better than Purito. You tell me I should stay to the facts. Which facts did I not stay to?

I am aware that Purito has podiumed all GTs.
I am aware that Purito has podiumed the Tour (kinda pointless to point out after the first fact in your list).
I am also aware that Uran hasn't podiumed the Tour.
I am also aware of the fact that Uran has podiumed two Giri.
I am also aware that Uran isn't a better climber than Froome.

So?

Uran is still a better GT rider than Purito.

The only GT they both rode while they were leaders of the team, was the Vuelta last year. Uran was nowhere, Purito was 4th.

Now explain to me why Uran is better. Otherwise i'm done with it.

 

[Arredondo]

Netserk,Arredondo explain your 'facts' in one post or stop your pointless discussion here.There is also pm for personal stuff if you wanna talk like this all day long.

Look, i've done my bit. Now i'm just waiting why he thinks Uran still is better.

But i will stop, so don't worry. Eventually victorie will come.

And i wish Uran all the best for the coming Vuelta. He can surprise me.

 

[Netserk]

Netserk,Arredondo explain your 'facts' in one post or stop your pointless discussion here.There is also pm for personal stuff if you wanna talk like this all day long.

I thought the topic of this thread was the 5 best GT riders and how they rank? You mentioned Purito yourself in the OP, and as such he is surely on topic, and I'd guess also where he rank.

 

[Netserk]

The only GT they both rode while they were leaders of the team, was the Vuelta last year. Uran was nowhere, Purito was 4th.

Now explain to me why Uran is better. Otherwise i'm done with it.

So you claim that I didn't stay to that fact? Really? Or what do you mean? I asked you a very simple question.

 

[Arredondo]

So you claim that I didn't stay to that fact? Really? Or what do you mean? I asked you a very simple question.

No, that's just another fact that came up my mind.

I have the opinion that you can't say Uran is a better GT rider then Purito, based on the facts (arguments) i given.

Perhaps you were aware of that fact. Ok, you were.

But then it makes me even wonder why you think Uran is better. Is it so difficult to name your things why you think this is the case? Perhaps i have looked past things.

Otherwise it remains a useluss dicussion about who is and isn't aware of facts, while my goal is to know why you think Uran is a better GT rider.

 

[Netserk]

No, that's just another fact that came up my mind.

I have the opinion that you can't say Uran is a better GT rider then Purito, based on the facts (arguments) i given.

Perhaps you were aware of that fact. Ok, you were.

But then it makes me even wonder why you think Uran is better. Is it so difficult to name your things why you think this is the case? Perhaps i have looked past things.

Otherwise it remains a useluss dicussion about who is and isn't aware of facts, while my goal is to know why you think Uran is a better GT rider.

One of the things I base it on is Uran's ride in the Giro this year. I don't think Purito would've beaten him without the crashes. That on a parcours in favour of Purito. On a more classic Tour route, Uran would defeat Purito with even more certainty. There's more to GT GC than climbing and sprinting on hills (despite what the Vuelta might try to tell you ). That and the fact that Purito is old and declining. The best is past him.

 

[Arredondo]

One of the things I base it on is Uran's ride in the Giro this year. I don't think Purito would've beaten him without the crashes. That on a parcours in favour of Purito. On a more classic Tour route, Uran would defeat Purito with even more certainty. There's more to GT GC than climbing and sprinting on hills (despite what the Vuelta might try to tell you ). That and the fact that Purito is old and declining. The best is past him.

No Purito wouldn't have beaten Uran, simply because he had 2 broken ribs before the start of the Giro. So he would have DNF or fell out of the top-10 anyway.

You say even without crashes? Well, that's interesting. Before this Giro, Uran hasn't given me any indication he would surpass Purito already this year. Purito won Catalunya against the best of the world. Without crashes, imo he would have finished 2nd behind Quintana. It wasn't coincidence the two big favorites before the Giro were Quintana and Purito, according to Quintana himself and the press. Of course they didn't take Purito's injury into account. But they just looked at normal circumstances and level of riders.

What you have to take into account, is that i'm aware that Purito's form will decline in the next years. But based on how he rode during the first months of 2014, and last year, there is no reason to believe the decline is already occur this year.

The chance is there (or probarly just reality) he will decline in 2015, and even furthermore the years after that. And Uran will come to a certain level that he will overtake Purito. Perhaps it's already visible in this years Vuelta. But i will give him the chance next month to show he's still better then Uran.

And in a classic GT, with two TT's, it will be closer between the two. Ok, Uran is a better TT'er, but he is not that brilliant too in that discipline. So if we take a situation where Uran will take 3 minutes out on Purito in those two TT's. Then i think it's still possible for Purito to take back that time in the mountains. But again, Purito will come to a certain age when he will decline, and then ofcourse it isn't possible.

One of the things I base it

What other things are you basing it? I can't imagine there are more arguments to give.

 

[Netserk]

What other things are you basing it? I can't imagine there are more arguments to give.

What have I told you about reading?

Here's my post:

One of the things I base it on is Uran's ride in the Giro this year. I don't think Purito would've beaten him without the crashes. That on a parcours in favour of Purito. On a more classic Tour route, Uran would defeat Purito with even more certainty. There's more to GT GC than climbing and sprinting on hills (despite what the Vuelta might try to tell you ). That and the fact that Purito is old and declining. The best is past him.

I also think (his crashes) this season will effect him (Purito). If the upcoming Vuelta had been a Tour (with a Tour route) and was the primary goal of both Uran and Purito this year, with both of them in their best form, I think there's a bigger chance Uran would finish higher than Purito in GC than vice-versa.

 

[Arredondo]

What have I told you about reading?

Here's my post:



I also think (his crashes) this season will effect him (Purito). If the upcoming Vuelta had been a Tour (with a Tour route) and was the primary goal of both Uran and Purito this year, with both of them in their best form, I think there's a bigger chance Uran would finish higher than Purito in GC than vice-versa.

I didn't know that was a real argument. Sounds to me a pretty weak one, so that's why i was wondering if there was more

Well, i still think Purito will finish higher, even on a classic Tour route. But you never now, next year it could definitely be the case for Uran. There will be a point Purito will decline. However, it has not happened this year. He only had bad luck.

 

[ILovecycling]

I thought the topic of this thread was the 5 best GT riders and how they rank? You mentioned Purito yourself in the OP, and as such he is surely on topic, and I'd guess also where he rank.

It is,but its pointless when two people discuss with tens of posts without any proves,facts etc (Im aware you made your points minutes ago, hooray!).Its very annoyng to other visitors to read and post to this thread then.So please behave more kindly.

 

[ILovecycling]

Those who have Horner in their top5...dont you think it was an early judgement as you saw yesterday in his climbing performace?

IMO he is/was one GT fluke like Cobo,Hesjedal (and dont come up with California and other us wins)

 

[Arredondo]

Those who have Horner in their top5...dont you think it was an early judgement as you saw yesterday in his climbing performace?

IMO he is/was one GT fluke like Cobo,Hesjedal (and dont come up with California and other us wins)

Last year Horner was dropped by 6/7 guys on the Empire pass. Yesterday 'only' Danielson and Hermans were stronger. So it doesn't say anything about the Vuelta.

 

[BigMac]

Those who have Horner in their top5...dont you think it was an early judgement as you saw yesterday in his climbing performace?

IMO he is/was one GT fluke like Cobo,Hesjedal (and dont come up with California and other us wins)

I did not make a list yet, but don't think yeterday's performance was bad indicator at all. If anything, it shows that he is slowly building his form ahead of the Vuelta, after a crash that would have ended the season for many. He will put a good performance in Snowbird and be in his best for the Vuelta.

 

[ILovecycling]

I did not make a list yet, but don't think yeterday's performance was bad indicator at all. If anything, it shows that he is slowly building his form ahead of the Vuelta, after a crash that would have ended the season for many. He will put a good performance in Snowbird and be in his best for the Vuelta.

Or he is tired after Tour.Guess we will know at 2nd week of Vuelta

 

[ILovecycling]

I found a great video from GCN. Best 10 GT riders who didnt win a GT.
http://www.cyclingfans.com/node/8276



will murito be one of them once he retires? It looks like his favourite race,Vuelta,has every year tougher and tougher field,so its harder and harder for him.Even with tailormade parcours for him.I doubt he will ever win Giro (I think next year Quintana,Contador or Nibali will ride corsa rosa) so Vuelta probably only chance for him?

 

[Arredondo]

I found a great video from GCN. Best 10 GT riders who didnt win a GT.
http://www.cyclingfans.com/node/8276



will murito be one of them once he retires? It looks like his favourite race,Vuelta,has every year tougher and tougher field,so its harder and harder for him.Even with tailormade parcours for him.I doubt he will ever win Giro (I think next year Quintana,Contador or Nibali will ride corsa rosa) so Vuelta probably only chance for him?

No, do not start this discussion again. I don't want to get in another 4-page useluss discussion

We have to take care to the other forum members, as you said

 

[ILovecycling]

No, do not start this discussion again. I don't want to get in another 4-page useluss discussion

We have to take care to the other forum members, as you said

so just dont reply to netserk.
I just wanted to know,how others rate murito's chances of winning GT,and I dont want to start a stupid poll.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I found a great video from GCN. Best 10 GT riders who didnt win a GT.
http://www.cyclingfans.com/node/8276



will murito be one of them once he retires? It looks like his favourite race,Vuelta,has every year tougher and tougher field,so its harder and harder for him.Even with tailormade parcours for him.I doubt he will ever win Giro (I think next year Quintana,Contador or Nibali will ride corsa rosa) so Vuelta probably only chance for him?

Probably yes, although obviously it's extremely subjective. I assume the video-makers are UK based because otherwise the selection of Tom Simpson is absolutely crazy - he only finished in the top 10 of a GT once, and didn't really ride them. If we're going to nominate him based on wearing one yellow jersey and a good classics palmarès, then the top 10 should be nothing but classics specialists like Roger de Vlaeminck and Rik van Looy, neither of whom won a GT but would belong at least somewhere on any self-respecting cycling fan's list of the best riders ever.

If they wanted to go the "tragic loss too early" route Chava Jiménez would have been a better pick as a GT rider even though Simpson's palmarès is objectively better. Hell, even if they wanted to go the "British home interest" route, Robert Millar would be a better pick, because he certainly should have won one.

Frankly, I think it's too late for Purito now. Like Valverde, he's still one of the top riders in the world, but unfortunately it doesn't seem that there's going to be a GT where none of those above him make it to the finish line in the next couple of years, and really after then it should be too late. His big problem was:
- his ITT was too weak in the 2010 Vuelta, though had he not crashed out Igor Antón would have beaten him anyway
- he didn't get his form right at the 2011 Vuelta, which was there for the winning with Nibali, Scarponi and Antón all underperforming and Menchov losing time in week 1.
- the 2012 Giro was raced extremely timidly and riders by their own admittance did not put enough pressure on Hesjedal when he was suffering because they thought he would drop away. Hesjedal put in one of his few world class ITTs that day, but Purito lost himself that race by not racing aggressively enough earlier on.
- he would have benefited from shipping the jersey to a breakaway some time in week 2 in the 2012 Vuelta; his domestiques had been controlling the bunch for two weeks by the time they got to the Fuente Dé stage, so weren't able to help him against the mugging by Saxo and Movistar.
- he targeted the Tour in 2013, which he was never going to win with Froome going postal.

 

[ILovecycling]

Probably yes, although obviously it's extremely subjective. I assume the video-makers are UK based because otherwise the selection of Tom Simpson is absolutely crazy - he only finished in the top 10 of a GT once, and didn't really ride them. If we're going to nominate him based on wearing one yellow jersey and a good classics palmarès, then the top 10 should be nothing but classics specialists like Roger de Vlaeminck and Rik van Looy, neither of whom won a GT but would belong at least somewhere on any self-respecting cycling fan's list of the best riders ever.

If they wanted to go the "tragic loss too early" route Chava Jiménez would have been a better pick as a GT rider even though Simpson's palmarès is objectively better. Hell, even if they wanted to go the "British home interest" route, Robert Millar would be a better pick, because he certainly should have won one.

Frankly, I think it's too late for Purito now. Like Valverde, he's still one of the top riders in the world, but unfortunately it doesn't seem that there's going to be a GT where none of those above him make it to the finish line in the next couple of years, and really after then it should be too late. His big problem was:
- his ITT was too weak in the 2010 Vuelta, though had he not crashed out Igor Antón would have beaten him anyway
- he didn't get his form right at the 2011 Vuelta, which was there for the winning with Nibali, Scarponi and Antón all underperforming and Menchov losing time in week 1.
- the 2012 Giro was raced extremely timidly and riders by their own admittance did not put enough pressure on Hesjedal when he was suffering because they thought he would drop away. Hesjedal put in one of his few world class ITTs that day, but Purito lost himself that race by not racing aggressively enough earlier on.
- he would have benefited from shipping the jersey to a breakaway some time in week 2 in the 2012 Vuelta; his domestiques had been controlling the bunch for two weeks by the time they got to the Fuente Dé stage, so weren't able to help him against the mugging by Saxo and Movistar.
- he targeted the Tour in 2013, which he was never going to win with Froome going postal.

Very good analysis,or I should say,great.

Yeah,they are uk based,its annoying but I got used to it
Biggest chance he had obviously was a 12' ,but tbh he didnt deserved to win Giro,and whats more he grabbed Cav's maglia rossa in last stage.
I never thought about 2013 chance until now,thanks.Thats very true,otoh Im not sure he would have been in form in september after 'winter' giro.
And people here will tell you Horner would have won anyway...

 

[ILovecycling]

Well here it is...

Froome vs Quintana vs Contador

Great battle for positions in our GT ranking.In what stage will Froome (+ Quintana) attack in order to drop Contador early not in form? Stage 6?
My bet is on 2nd stage

 

[Carols]

Well here it is...

Froome vs Quintana vs Contador

Great battle for positions in our GT ranking.In what stage will Froome (+ Quintana) attack in order to drop Contador early not in form? Stage 6?
My bet is on 2nd stage

This will be a Froome, Nairo battle...Alberto stands no chance of winning. A stage win late would be enough to add to his legend. I just hope he doesn't do himself any long term damage.

 

[ILovecycling]

Another GT (almost!) behind us. What has changed?

IMO Purito is declining, I have to admit I had him in 5th place, but I dont think anymore he is so strong.
Alberto nor Dawg werent on their best,question is how they were (95% vs 95% etc), IMO they were more or less the same, maybe someone were a bit better form wise, but I cant guess who...

 

[Hugo Koblet]

1. Contador
2. Froome
3. Nibali
4. Quintana
5. Valverde